Oz color difference

[stromberg6]

Originally Posted by Penthode

No one answered my original question: what were the original sources? Obviously they were not from the CD. And as it has been cited above, no two DVDs are alike.

Are you asking about the sources for each release in the various formats mentioned? or the sources that the responders have used in their posts. My source is mentioned in a previous post, a "bonus" DVD that came with the DeLuxe Robin Hood release. The problems with my CTC-4 screen shots are obvious, and the other shots are also interesting, in that no two seem to be the same, allowing, of course, for the differences in the displays used for the shots.
I thank YOU and all others for the info posted, as it seems to indicate that the phrase "Never Twice the Same color" is true to the bitter end .
BTW, Ingrid is also over-saturated, but I doubt that anyone cares about THAT screen shot haha.

[ChrisW6ATV]

Originally Posted by Pete Deksnis

RCA F38310 38-in. 9X16 CRT 1999 set which, as I learned at a recent ETF Convention from a former member of the team who designed it, was not considered a true hi-def TV because it didn't qualify pixelwise

This really surprises me, Pete. I have seen those sets, and they always looked quite detailed. I would have guessed at least 1280x720 actual resolution (despite the chassis only sending a 1920x1080i signal to the CRT).

[Pete Deksnis]

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

This really surprises me, Pete. I have seen those sets, and they always looked quite detailed.

Perhaps running my f38310 with velocity modulation disabled accounts for lack of detail you mentioned. While I have no compunction against VCM, it seems, well, more civilized without it, although it does make the image crisper.

The story surrounding the 38-in. diagonal wide-screen RCA/Thomson-developed CRT has gotta be fascinating, but my knowledge is fragmented. I know there were at least three different versions: the RCA f38310, the Proscan P38000, and a German variant I once saw in a high-end video retailer, Harvey Electronics, in an Eatontown NJ store.

I had both an early production P38000 (made I suspect about or before August 2001) and a late production f38310 (June 2002) side-by-side in my living room for a week or so around September 2002. The P38000 outshone the f38310 by a shocking margin; my 'test' signals were simply ATSC transmissions available in the New York City area. WCBS-DT was particularly important as CBS was converting their programming to digital much ahead of the competition.

Anyway, the 'German' version and the early Proscan (I heard there was no difference between 'later' Proscan's and the f38310's) were the most impressive performers. The f38310 in my A-B viewing tests came in a noticeable second compared to the early P38000. That same f38310 is the one from which the screen shot in this thread came.

If memory serves, I understood it was these sets inability to display a million pixels that disqualified them as true hi-def ATSC sets. It would be interesting to learn more of the RCA/Thomson-era ATSC history.

Pete

[colorfixer]

James,

What source did they use in the early 80's to transfer the film to home video (before they cared about quality) or before for broadcast? Did they simply recycle an old working negative from the 50's? I thought that they didn't touch the 3 strip negative until they did the restoration and subsequent modern re-release?

My uncle was a projectionist from the 50's to the early 80's used to curse the day they stopped using IB prints. He claimed that there wasn't an Eastmancolor print he liked and he hated the prints even more the older they got. Heck, he resisted Xenon lighting until forced to stop carbon arc.

Are there any surviving '39 IB prints still around in any condition?

It's really a shame that a kid today going to a cinema will likely never see real film grain on the screen.

[colorfixer]

From Wikipedia's article on Oz:

"It was also very common (and even an FCC requirement for early color broadcasters) for TV stations to turn off the color portion of their transmission when broadcasting a black and white show or movie. This was because unusual colors or "color noise" could be seen during the showing of black-and-white programming under some conditions. Though the opening Kansas scenes in The Wizard of Oz were meant to be shown in sepia and though the sepia was restored to the film in 1989 for the film's 50th anniversary VHS and laserdisc reissue, a few local CBS affiliates still showed the sepia portion of the film with the color signal disabled for many years.[citation needed] Most of these were small market affiliates that ran some syndicated black-and-white shows as these stations were used to turning the color modes off during black-and-white programming. One CBS affiliate, WGNX, transmitted the opening Kansas scenes in black and white as recently as its 1996 showing because this station was an independent station that ran a moderate number of black-and-white films before becoming a CBS affiliate.

[old_tv_nut]

"Unusual colors" would include the generally poor shading of vidicon telecine chains.
Analog cable/satellite systems later got excellent black and white transfers of some syndicated programs (e.g., "Father Knows Best") but left the burst on, resulting in strong cross-color on fabrics and other fine detail. If I had watched those more, I would have been one of I'd guess a handful of people who would bother turning down the color on the receiver to get rid of it. This practice gave the only purpose I have ever thought of for having a color control that goes all the way to zero.

[stromberg6]

The "I Love Lucy" re-runs on Hallmark channel show the slight green tint of the prints, which helped accent the contrast when run in B/W camera chains. I used to turn off the chroma, but it now I don't care about it. I agree that some B/W prints are very sharp, and some are still as entertaining as when first shown.
I'm now looking for a decent 21 inch B/W set, mid to late 50s, to add to the collection so I can view B/w material without using a color set. An in-law has a 1957 RCA in his barn, but the CRT has to be OK, or no deal lol.

[wa2ise]

Originally Posted by stromberg6

I'm now looking for a decent 21 inch B/W set, mid to late 50s, to add to the collection so I can view B/w material without using a color set. ... but the CRT has to be OK, or no deal lol.

Mine has a weak CRT, here it has a brightner.

[cbenham]

Originally Posted by colorfixer

From Wikipedia's article on Oz:

"It was also very common (and even an FCC requirement for early color broadcasters) for TV stations to turn off the color portion of their transmission when broadcasting a black and white show or movie. This was because unusual colors or "color noise" could be seen during the showing of black-and-white programming under some conditions.

The FCC finally ended the practice of turning off burst for B&W programs in the early 1980s because the broadcast studio TV gear being manufactured then required the incoming signal to contain "sync coherent subcarrier". This means that the color subcarrier and the sync signal had to be locked together and mathematically related or the equipment would not pass the video signal. To broadcast a B&W film, I devised a way to turn off the I and Q video in the filmchain camera while still leaving the color burst on in the monochrome video output. This way the color shading problems in the filmchain camera were not visible to the viewers with color sets.
Cliff

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by cbenham

...To broadcast a B&W film, I devised a way to turn off the I and Q video in the filmchain camera while still leaving the color burst on in the monochrome video output. This way the color shading problems in the filmchain camera were not visible to the viewers with color sets.
Cliff

Bless you!

By the way, is there a problem with your personal email? I copied you on a couple of things recently and saw no response.

[earlyfilm]

Originally Posted by colorfixer

James,
What source did they use in the early 80's to transfer the film to home video (before they cared about quality) or before for broadcast? Did they simply recycle an old working negative from the 50's?

In the 1940's to the mid-1980's most local TV stations aired from a 16mm print. Most network aired from a 35mm print. Video mastering was mostly the same as soon as it came along.

Originally Posted by colorfixer

Did they simply recycle an old working negative from the 50's? I thought that they didn't touch the 3 strip negative until they did the restoration and subsequent modern re-release?

I'm speaking in general and of no specific title, but starting in the 1990's they started mastering from copy negatives and interpositives which are the things they normally use to make copy negatives.

Usually, unless they were planning a theatrical reissue, the originals were never touched. Doing that is simply too risky.

Originally Posted by colorfixer

My uncle was a projectionist from the 50's to the early 80's used to curse the day they stopped using IB prints. He claimed that there wasn't an Eastmancolor print he liked and he hated the prints even more the older they got. Heck, he resisted Xenon lighting until forced to stop carbon arc.

I humbly agree with you uncle! There are still a few theaters still running carbon arc, today. At least he got out of the business prior to the switch to polyester prints, which really caused many a projectionist to lose his cool.

Originally Posted by colorfixer

Are there any surviving '39 IB prints still around in any condition?

Probably not on "The Wizard of Oz" as this was just a routine picture that failed to make a profit until it hit TV in Color. but on other titles, yes some still survive. I've seen clips from a first run "Gone with the Wind" print in a private collection. On the earlier two color Technicolor, prints from about 1924 survive.

Originally Posted by colorfixer

It's really a shame that a kid today going to a cinema will likely never see real film grain on the screen.

Unfortunate, but true. Photochemical photography is almost dead. In most cities in the US today, there is no way to see a motion picture being projected, as they have all gone to digital.

James

[Eric H]

The latest restoration of The Wizard was done from a 1939 Nitrate print "and scanned digitally at 8K resolution":

http://thefilmstage.com/features/wiz...ration-report/

The earlier restoration was done from a fine grain master that was duped from the original negative in 1960, the original negatives were lost in a fire in 1970.

http://www.theasc.com/magazine/dec98/wizard/pgs1.htm

To say the color from this old film is amazing would be a major understatement!

[colorfixer]

Originally Posted by earlyfilm

I humbly agree with you uncle! There are still a few theaters still running carbon arc, today. At least he got out of the business prior to the switch to polyester prints, which really caused many a projectionist to lose his cool.

My uncle was forced out of the biz when the big theatre chains (all of 2 at the time) decided they didn't like the projectionist unions and locked everyone out. Any decent single screen house was shuttered soon after. Heck, where I live now, we don't even have a decent large screen venue capable of showing 70mm.

All the mega-omni-uberplexes that run up here today are xenon and are all digital. Gone are the craftpeople that kept the stuff running and cared what the image on the screen looked like, replaced by a kid that seldom, if ever even cleans the optics or even the projection booth windows. I can't watch films in the theatre, the simple projection issues prevent me from enjoying the show.

[RCAGuy]

Originally Posted by Pete Deksnis

Perhaps running my f38310 with velocity modulation disabled accounts for lack of detail you mentioned. While I have no compunction against VCM, it seems, well, more civilized without it, although it does make the image crisper.

The story surrounding the 38-in. diagonal wide-screen RCA/Thomson-developed CRT has gotta be fascinating, but my knowledge is fragmented. I know there were at least three different versions: the RCA f38310, the Proscan P38000, and a German variant I once saw in a high-end video retailer, Harvey Electronics, in an Eatontown NJ store.

I had both an early production P38000 (made I suspect about or before August 2001) and a late production f38310 (June 2002) side-by-side in my living room for a week or so around September 2002. The P38000 outshone the f38310 by a shocking margin; my 'test' signals were simply ATSC transmissions available in the New York City area. WCBS-DT was particularly important as CBS was converting their programming to digital much ahead of the competition.

Anyway, the 'German' version and the early Proscan (I heard there was no difference between 'later' Proscan's and the f38310's) were the most impressive performers. The f38310 in my A-B viewing tests came in a noticeable second compared to the early P38000. That same f38310 is the one from which the screen shot in this thread came.

If memory serves, I understood it was these sets inability to display a million pixels that disqualified them as true hi-def ATSC sets. It would be interesting to learn more of the RCA/Thomson-era ATSC history.

Pete

Thomson's RCA and PROSCAN widescreen sets were first introduced as NTSC models in 1993 with tubes from the company's picture tube plant in Italy, which also supplied other Thomson brands (such as the German TELEFUNKEN brand.) It would be the end of the decade (1999 or so) before the first widescreen HD picture tubes were available from Thomson's U.S. picture tube plant in Marion, IN. That's the tube used in the F38310, the affordable (at the time) 38-inch widescreen RCA set. Also far more popular at this time were "HD-ready" sets that had high-resolution picture tubes, but were 4:3 aspect ratio. This was before most programming was available in widescreen, so people were buying to see what was available on cable, broadcast, and satellite. These "HD-ready" sets were "almost" HD, given that they almost had 1M pixels when showing widescreen content and letterbox bars.

[old_tv_nut]

Since this has been the heaviest discussion of Technicolor lately, please let me divert it a bit:

I hoped to measure the dye transmissions on a "YCM" leader frame of Ed Reitan's 16mm copy of "La Cucaracha," which he provided for the Early TV Convention. Unfortunately, there was only one frame, which we couldn't still-frame to measure.

If anyone reading this forum has a frame or two of YCM leader they could donate for mounting in a 35mm slide mount, I could do the measurements, and put some numbers and diagrams to the color range of the dyes.