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  #31  
Old 11-29-2011, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV View Post
Yes indeed! I keep a running total of the money saved since I cancelled satellite TV in late 2005; it is up to about US$5,900.00 so far.
How are you getting TV reception today if you cancelled your satellite service? (Just curious.) My best guess would be that you either went to cable or to AT&T U-Verse, or even to an OTA antenna.

In response to Vintagecollect's remarks regarding being in the "right" area for good OTA DTV reception: Yes, that is still a major problem with DTV, and is the reason most people today have either cable, satellite, or (if available) AT&T U-Verse service -- OTA reception of digital television signals in most areas is just too iffy. Even if you are within line-of-sight range of your area's TV transmitters, the problem would not be signal strength but reflections, causing dead spots and hot spots in different areas of your house; this can even cause problems with the proper aiming of outdoor TV antennas. As a somewhat extreme example of what I am referring to: I live in a semi-fringe area for Cleveland television, the transmitters for the seven stations serving northeast Ohio being just under 40 miles from my apartment. I was getting fair to poor reception of most stations using rabbit ears (and no reception whatsoever from NBC channel 3 in Cleveland) -- no outdoor TV antennas permitted here -- before the DTV transition. I have not tried antenna reception of the Cleveland stations since the DTV switch, however, so I don't know what my DTV reception would be like. Since NTSC analog reception here was fair to poor, I wouldn't expect much better results with digital; the one channel I was missing in analog probably doesn't reach here in ATSC DTV either, and the reception of all other Cleveland stations would very likely be hit-or-miss as well. Channel 5, the ABC affiliate in Cleveland, was talking about increasing its antenna height and/or increasing transmitter power shortly after the transition, but I don't know if they ever went through with it. Channel 19 is the CBS affiliate for this area; they did increase transmitter power several months ago, in response to complaints that their DTV signal was not reaching the west side of Cleveland and the suburbs of the city located there.

Whether this problem was corrected when the station increased power output, however, I don't know. I think they would have had better results if they would have increased their antenna height, rather than the transmitter output power. I am an amateur radio operator and learned that lesson very early on; the higher your transmitting antenna, the further your transmitted signal will go, even if you are transmitting with just a few watts of power.
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  #32  
Old 11-29-2011, 11:26 PM
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Jeff, I am using a TV antenna on my roof. I am also a ham (the W6ATV in my nickname here) and I own this house, so the TV antenna is just one more in the collection. It is a Channel Master Stealthtenna, that I installed to replace a bigger log-periodic-type one because I wanted multi-direction reception without using a rotator. I live in a flat area about midway between San Francisco and Oakland, California, so I pick up good signals from both cities here (about 25 miles from either city). In fact, this is a good location in general, because I can pick up all of those signals indoor with rabbit ears on a good DTV receiver (Zenith or Channel Master) as well. It is fun to use a 1950s pair of rabbit ears and a 1965 RCA CTC-16 and watch flawless color TV with the Zenith tuner.

I would definitely recommend that you give an antenna or two a try with your DTV converter (and your flat-panel TV in antenna mode as well) again. Reception here is much better than it was in the early days of digital TV, so the stations really have been improving their signals recently. As I am sure you probably know, if/when you move your antenna to different angles or positions while testing it, you need to wait a few seconds or more in each position to let the digital tuner catch up before judging the signal and moving the antenna again. Good luck.
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  #33  
Old 11-30-2011, 12:32 AM
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Chris, I just now looked at the "antenna" listings at TVGuide.com for the San Francisco/Oakland area, and am astounded at how many channels one can get just with an antenna in that area. I didn't count them, but my best guess right now is perhaps 30 channels, from both SF and Oakland -- some of those channels being duplicates (I noticed two DTV channels on the LiveWell Network in the SF/Oakland area, and several PBS stations).

I think I just might try my Insignia flat-panel TV on an antenna, just to see what I can receive here OTA. As I mentioned, the NBC station in Cleveland did not reach here at all in NTSC analog, and the digital signal is likely even weaker, so I don't have much hope that I'll get that channel here with an indoor antenna. ABC and CBS, on channels 5 and 19 here, respectively, just increased their transmitter power (at least 19 did; channel 5 just installed new transmitting antennas and is, to the best of my knowledge, still operating at the same power output it had when it was operating in analog), so I may have a good chance of seeing those two channels in ATSC digital. I don't have DTV converter boxes for my two analog CRT TVs yet, and don't know if I can even get them anywhere anymore, as most stores that did stock them prior to the DTV transition no longer do so, although I read somewhere on this or another forum that Radio Shack still stocks Digitalstream-branded DTV converters; for how much longer, however, is anyone's guess. Flat-panel TVs are becoming dirt-cheap these days (I bought my 19" Insignia FP at Best Buy this past August for $130, less shipping), and I just saw an ad in my Sunday paper for a 19-inch off-brand FP selling for under $100. Because FPs, except the monster 40-, 50-, 60+-inch ones, are becoming so cheap, there may not be much need for converter boxes (people more often than not trash their old CRT TVs, replacing them with FPs these days when the old sets develop any kind of repair problems), so I guess now is the time to get a box if you can find them.


BTW, I have noticed your ham radio callsign as part of your member name here at VK, and I remember reading in one of your posts to another thread a long time ago that you operate amateur TV on 440 MHz. That's one mode I never explored when I had my HF ham station in a Cleveland suburb, before moving here in 1999. Now, I operate basically just 2-meter FM and, for HF, since I cannot erect antennas (lease restrictions), I am on Echolink, node number 331660. My callsign is WB8NHV (first licensed June 1972) and appears after my name in my profile signature.
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 11-30-2011 at 12:38 AM.
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  #34  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:33 AM
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OTA television just may eventually disappear on its own, without the need to mandate its extinction.

Up here in the pacific northwest, a very historic television pioneer, KVOS is just such case. This was the first station that served the Vancouver BC market. It was a CBS affiliate (and at one time Dumont in 1953), that once it lost CBS (it was considered a Seattle market station, which had a CBS affiliate) it was all downhill from there. It just sold for 2.2 million to an investment firm owned by Michael Dell. The previous sale a number of years back was 28 million, so someone got a bargain.

In Vancouver BC, the market penetration of cable is so complete that most stations did not bother to go with transmit ERP's to equate their analog signals, and the "public" broadcaster (CBC) even discontinued a number of translators and fill transmitters across Canada.

Those who run the big 3 networks in Seattle made getting locals on satellite so difficult that when Directv first offered them, we had to file waivers to each affiliate to get ABC, CBS, and NBC. The ABC affiliate insisted to Directv that we should be able to get their signal (CH4) off air, even though where I live in Blaine, WA is well outside their grade B contour (we're >100 miles from Seattle, through typical northwest mountains and forest). Come ATSC, and even off my 50' amateur radio tower and with a "super deep fringe" UHF amplified antenna, I can't even begin to see their signals on a spectrum analyzer.
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  #35  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:47 PM
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If you cannot receive the Seattle stations where you are with an antenna, and satellite doesn't carry Seattle's locals for any reason (what about Spokane stations?), your only other option would be cable if your area has it.

I would think, in an area over 100 miles from Seattle, you would have at least one cable system -- unless you are way out in the boondocks. If you are located in eastern Washington state (I don't know where in the state your town is), you should be getting stations from Spokane and also across the border in British Columbia; since the latter, and for that matter all TV stations in Canada, now have converted all their TV stations to DTV, one converter box on your TV should do the trick if you still want to use an antenna.
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  #36  
Old 12-13-2011, 12:53 PM
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If you cannot receive the Seattle stations where you are with an antenna, and satellite doesn't carry Seattle's locals for any reason (what about Spokane stations?), your only other option would be cable if your area has it.

I would think, in an area over 100 miles from Seattle, you would have at least one cable system -- unless you are way out in the boondocks. If you are located in eastern Washington state (I don't know where in the state your town is), you should be getting stations from Spokane and also across the border in British Columbia; since the latter, and for that matter all TV stations in Canada, now have converted all their TV stations to DTV, one converter box on your TV should do the trick if you still want to use an antenna.
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  #37  
Old 12-13-2011, 01:14 PM
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Ed in Tx Ed in Tx is offline
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Originally Posted by colorfixer View Post
Those who run the big 3 networks in Seattle made getting locals on satellite so difficult that when Directv first offered them, we had to file waivers to each affiliate to get ABC, CBS, and NBC..
Now local channels are mandatory on Dish and DirecTV. I had to battle Dish go take the local channels OFF of my service as I receive over 70 OTA channels which Dish certainly can't duplicate, and they are not effected by rain outages. Dish made Locals mandatory shortly after I signed up for their service, and the first change I made to the service updated my account to include locals and added the fee to my bill. I argued with them and won, saving me a whopping $5 a mo off my Dish bill. Hey why pay for it if you already have better.
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  #38  
Old 12-13-2011, 06:16 PM
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Now local channels are mandatory on Dish and DirecTV. I had to battle Dish go take the local channels OFF of my service as I receive over 70 OTA channels which Dish certainly can't duplicate, and they are not effected by rain outages.
Seventy over the air channels? Wow! You must be at a very high point in your area, or else you have a 225-mile deep-fringe antenna with a preamp, rotor, the works. I've never known or even heard of anyone (until now) who can get seventy channels of TV without cable. You must be getting stations from everywhere in the Southwest US, and then some.
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  #39  
Old 12-13-2011, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeffhs View Post
Seventy over the air channels? Wow! You must be at a very high point in your area, or else you have a 225-mile deep-fringe antenna with a preamp, rotor, the works. I've never known or even heard of anyone (until now) who can get seventy channels of TV without cable. You must be getting stations from everywhere in the Southwest US, and then some.
Nope just from Cedar Hill TX about 30 miles south of me. That includes all the digital multi channels. Some have up to 5 standard def channels.


My not so deep fringe antenna, in the attic of the garage, an old Antennacraft-made sold at RadioShack back in the '80s-90s.



A neighbor was throwing it away so I salvaged it, cut the back end off about a foot with the longest elements (damaged) no longer needed since there's nothing on the old channels 2 through 6 low VHF.

Last edited by Ed in Tx; 12-13-2011 at 06:47 PM.
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  #40  
Old 12-13-2011, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ed in Tx View Post
Nope just from Cedar Hill TX about 30 miles south of me. That includes all the digital multi channels. Some have up to 5 standard def channels.


My not so deep fringe antenna, in the attic of the garage, an old AntennaCraft brand.



A neighbor was throwing it away so I salvaged it, cut the back end off about a foot with the longest elements (damaged) no longer needed since there's nothing on the old channels 2 through 6 low VHF.
Your antenna looks almost exactly like one on a house I pass on my way to the supermarket here every week or so. That antenna also has lost most of its VHF elements, and could be used for DTV in this area if not for the CBS affiliate in Cleveland, WOIO-TV. That station operates on virtual channel 19 (the station number shown on digital TV sets and converter boxes) but its DTV signal is on channel 10, the only VHF DTV station I am aware of in this area (the rest of the DTV stations in Cleveland are on UHF channels). I suppose if all the damaged VHF elements were taken off that antenna, leaving only the five or so undamaged ones, it could be used as a dedicated channel 10 antenna, with the UHF section (which is undamaged) being used to receive the other Cleveland DTVs. However, since there is a potential interference problem between DTV 10 in this area and a Canadian station (CFPL-TV in London, Ontario) on the same channel, there is a chance that one or the other may be forced, eventually, to move to a UHF channel. However, because of the higher frequencies, lower power and therefore limited range of digital television signals transmitted over UHF channels, there may not be that much of an issue as far as interference is concerned; only time will tell what may or may not shake out in that situation.

You said that many of the stations you can receive have as many as five (!) digital HD and/or SD subchannels; that's amazing. How many standard TV stations did you receive in your area before DTV? The PBS station in Cleveland has three subchannels (PBS World, PBS Ohio, and PBS Create);the NBC station has one (weather radar), the ABC station has one (the LiveWell Network), the CBS station has one (MeTV), the Fox station has one (Antenna TV) and the CW Network affiliate has an HD subchannel, but no other alternate programming. There is a PBS station about sixty miles southwest of here that has three DTV subchannels as well. All told, on the cable system here I can get twelve channels, counting the broadcast channels' DTV subchannels, in addition to the standard "must carry" cable channels; the complete total number of channels I can get on Time Warner Cable -- broadcast, DTV subchannels, and must-carry channels -- comes close to the number of OTA stations you are receiving with your converted antenna.

You are also saving a bundle by receiving your TV over the air, as cable systems raise their already high rates every year. I'd like to put up an OTA antenna here, but there are at least two problems: one, I live in an apartment building, so cannot erect an outside TV antenna, and two, I am in a semi-fringe area for Cleveland television, the transmitters being located just under 40 miles southwest of here. One VHF network station did not reach here in analog, and the others, except for channel 19, were fair to poor, using rabbit ears. I doubt I'd have much better luck with DTV -- in fact, I think my reception of all Cleveland stations would be the same or perhaps worse than it was in NTSC analog.
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 12-13-2011 at 07:29 PM.
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  #41  
Old 12-13-2011, 08:08 PM
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You said that many of the stations you can receive have as many as five (!) digital HD and/or SD subchannels; that's amazing. How many standard TV stations did you receive in your area before DTV?
About 15-20 including the low power stations. Since the DTV transition several more low power stations have come on the air. Most don't interest me. But there are a few good ones like RTV, Antenna TV, ThisTV, AccuWeather, PBS World. Was just looking at the TV Guide info, one channel KWDA-LP has 9 sub-channels listed!

I have tried a couple of other antennas including a new Winegard thinking the old one wasn't doing as well as it could and maybe I could improve reception of LP stations. However, nothing performed as well as this old RS-Antennacraft antenna on UHF! I think it has to do with the folded or loop dipole UHF driven element used. That's the main visible difference between this and a similar sized Winegard that simply didn't have the signal strength. Antennacraft still sells antennas. Saw one at a Home Depot a year or so ago by the "GE" name, GE TV24767 was the number. I recall someone who went looking for one found out Home Depot discontinued it.

As I found it, before my modification...



Antenna as advertised by RS in 1995

Last edited by Ed in Tx; 12-13-2011 at 09:52 PM.
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  #42  
Old 04-11-2012, 01:57 PM
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At least into the 1980s, people in my family referred to lights left "burning" ...
I was looking at old TV print advertisements the other day online and saw an old ad from the '50s for Admiral "Son-R" remote control televisions. The ad stated that, unlike most other TV remote control systems, the Son-R remote turned the television completely off (except for the remote receiver) as well as on, and that "No tubes (are) left burning in the set!"

Also, there were some folks who still referred to refrigerators as "ice boxes" as late as the 1970s. Oscar Madison (played by Jack Klugman) in the 1970s ABC television series "The Odd Couple" was one of them, with his roommate, Felix Unger (the late Tony Randall) being another. I suppose there were many people who grew up in the '20s or earlier who still used the term "ice box" (out of force of habit, no doubt) for years or decades as well, even after GE introduced its "Monitor Top" electric refrigerators in the '30s. Again, it was largely out of force of habit; these older folks became so accustomed to using the term "ice box" when they had one that, when the electric refrigerator came out and the old ice box was scrapped, the term stuck.

As far as "tin foil" goes, however, I am at a loss to explain why this phrase was still being used even into the 1970s to describe foil which is, nowadays, anything but tin -- unless it was actually made of tin when it was first marketed in the US. Today, however, we know that this type of foil is actually aluminum, but as with the term "ice box", the phrase "tin foil" was used for years by some older people, again purely out of force of habit. When a phrase is used often enough, many times it becomes common in the language and is used for years, decades or even generations before it finally falls out of favor and is replaced by another. I can think of a few crude phrases still being used by some folks these days that originated perhaps thirty, forty or more years ago, and that refuse to die.
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Last edited by Jeffhs; 04-11-2012 at 07:59 PM.
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  #43  
Old 04-11-2012, 09:19 PM
peverett peverett is offline
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The term "tin foil hats" is still used to describe people whose beliefs tend to be on the edge.

I saw the line "Zenith, gone but not forgotten". I used to work for Motorola. They are "Almost gone" with only the Motorola Solutions group left after Google finishes buying the cellphone portion.
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  #44  
Old 04-13-2012, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Ed in Tx View Post
...However, nothing performed as well as this old RS-Antennacraft antenna on UHF! I think it has to do with the folded or loop dipole UHF driven element used. That's the main visible difference between this and a similar sized Winegard that simply didn't have the signal strength. Antennacraft still sells antennas.
Ed, you're correct about that folded dipole. the single driven UHF element with the director array in front seems to work best for me too. The bowtie shape enhances its function.
I have a vintage Channel Master yagi (4257) that uses the same element.
House array 2009.jpg
This gets us 45 DT channels without moving the rotor. 30 from Philadelphia, which the antenna is aimed at. 15 more locals come in due to high signal strength. The amplifiers are located in the attic - in case they crap out in bad weather. needless to say I have no use for cable.

RS used to have a simple dipole for UHF on all its antennas, and it barely worked, all that changed when RS offered the folded dipole. Maybe CM's 1977 patent expired and Antennacraft started using it. BTW Antennacraft is made by Winegard.

Last edited by DavGoodlin; 04-13-2012 at 07:44 AM.
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  #45  
Old 06-16-2012, 01:27 AM
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I am NOT connected to a cable system, and whatever the cable system in my area does, it will NOT affect my reception in the slightest. Yes ! I watch "Antenna TV "with an antenna!
jr
I watch HDTV with rooftop over the air antennas, and since I live between Baltimore and Philadelphia I get about 46 different programs with little duplication. Great for sports as I can sometimes get around the blackouts.

All for free. Try that with cable or fiber!

Cliff
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