DTV on standard NTSC TVs

[Jeffhs]

When a DTV converter box is used with an older NTSC television, I realize there will be black bars on either side of the picture (letterbox effect) as if the picture was a 16:9 one being viewed on a flat panel (I've seen this on TV commercials, whereas the program itself is a full-screen image). How does a converter box handle this? Is there a zoom button on the converter remote to change the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3, as with flat-panel sets? I wonder about this because I am very new to DTV, having purchased my first FP set two months ago, and because I saw a picture in another, very recent post to this forum of a 1971 RCA console color set (CTC-44A) that showed a full picture on its 25" screen. Was that picture from a TV broadcast or a DVD? I did see what appears to be a converter box atop the television cabinet, so my best guess is the picture is from the former, probably in NTSC format since the image is full-screen, no letterboxing.

BTW, how much longer will we VKers (and anyone else) using converter boxes with older TVs be able to use these boxes? I ask because many cable systems are converting to 100 percent digital, and reception of local broadcast channels on many if not most systems will require the use of the cable operator's own cable boxes after a certain date. Time Warner Cable in my area is already digital (all major network TV stations in Cleveland show as DTV channels on my flat-panel's channel indicator), but I understand there is a hard date some time in 2012 by which time all U.S. cable systems will have to convert to full digital. It will not be an option.

Time-Warner Cable here in northeastern Ohio may be completely digital, however, but the company does offer an analog cable hookup (no box required) that provides all broadcast channels and digital subchannels such as RTV, MeTV, Antenna TV and four subchannels of the PBS station here, not to mention standard cable. To get every digital channel on the cable (upwards of 120 channels), however, one must upgrade to a level of service that requires the use of a box. Is there any such thing as an ATSC digital flat-panel TV that will receive literally every channel on every North American (i. e. US and Canadian) cable system without ever having to use a cable box? I imagine the cable companies wouldn't like seeing such a set on the market, as they get a lot of their operating revenues from the rental of cable boxes and the sheer price of digital cable service itself. I once had Time-Warner digital cable with a cable box on one of my analog TVs, and was paying well over $100 each month for it; then I downgraded to standard analog cable and was paying $55.67 monthly. I don't know what I'm paying for analog cable now, as my cable service is part of a bundle -- cable, home telephone and Internet service.

[ctc17]

Most of the converter boxes have a 4:3 option in the menu. I dont use it because it looks stretched. Letter box looks fine on old sets.

Today most cable and satellite boxes still have a channel 3 and composite output. Once those are gone there is an hdmi converter.

There are still rf modulator converter boxes made for vga, hdmi and composite so theres hope. 40 years from now....who knows.

[Kevin Kuehn]

We're almost to the point that it's easier to watch TV via a high speed internet connection. I suppose the cable companies will combat that by raising our HS rates. I don't particularly care if I can't watch any live network TV. It's a great time to latch on to a few older DVD/VHS players with built in rf modulators. We still have basic expanded cable here, but I'm sure the end is very near.

[dewdude]

I've got Verizon Fios, and run an HD box on an SDTV. I did this because I have a non-hd slingbox, but it doesn't handle interlaced content that great. So I mostly have the box to send 720p 16:9 in to the thing.

However, I use RF on my old TV. The box will let you pick letterbox or pan-scan options. It all works well....except....on some locals and when content is pillarboxed (4:3 matted for 16:9). I essentially wind up with a picturebox, pillarboxing from the station...letterbox because the box auto leterboxes HD channels. I have to set it to pan/scan when this happens...otherwise I enjoy the letterboxing...and the donconverts of HD *sometimes* looks sharper than the actual SD channel...although since fios runs their SD channels at full res and not 480x480 like other providers....there's rarely much difference.

Sent from my Samsung Intercept with Tapatalk

[old_tv_nut]

Over the air converter boxes usually have a zoom setting to get either letterbox (black on top and bottom) or cropped to 4x3. If you use the 4x3 option going into a 16x9 flat panel, you see stretched, but that was not your question.

On cable systems, there are sets that will receive the QAM digital signal if it's in the clear, but usually it isn't, and requires a set with a Cablecard interface and a descrambling card supplied by the cable company.

The original idea of Cablecard is that it could be owned by and installed by the consumer, and portable from one cable system to another. I don't think the portable part ever worked, requiring different cards for different systems. Cable companies have dragged their feet on Cablecard availability, requiring their technician to plug it in, etc., to the point where receiver makers have given up on designing the interface into all sets.

The future appears (maybe) to be a simpler cable interface box that converts to Ethernet combined with a TV with an Ethernet port.

[jr_tech]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

BTW, how much longer will we VKers (and anyone else) using converter boxes with older TVs be able to use these boxes? I ask because many cable systems are converting to 100 percent digital, and reception of local broadcast channels on many if not most systems will require the use of the cable operator's own cable boxes

I use two DTV boxes to convert over the air (OTA) ASTC transmissions to NTSC for my analog sets. Zoom functions are provided by both the Channel Master and Zenith boxes that I use. I am NOT connected to a cable system, and whatever the cable system in my area does, it will NOT affect my reception in the slightest. Yes ! I watch "Antenna TV "with an antenna!

jr

[radiotvnut]

I have OTA DTV boxes by Channel Master, Digitalstream, and Magnavox. All of these have the zoom feature. I have one box connected to a '69 Zenith tube-type B&W console and the other box connected to a '78 Sylvania solid state B&W console. The third box is used for testing TV's on the bench and the fourth box is used for a spare.

The other TV's in the house are connected to comcast cable. For now, 2-12 can be received by an older analog set. Any channel above 12 requires the use of one of their "digital devices". Their basic digital transport adapter is about the size of a deck of playing cards and it tunes the digital cable channels and outputs an NTSC signal on either channel 3 or 4. There are no buttons on the box and there are no A/V output jacks. If you lose the remote or if the remote fails to operate, you are stuck. The other box is the big Motorola model that allows the user to access PPV movies, etc. I heard that sometime in 2012, they would be stopping analog delivery of channels 2-12; but, I guess only time will tell.

How long will we be able to use our older TV's? I suppose that we'll be able to use them as long as there is some type of D2A converter available. As far as OTA boxes, they are already getting hard to find on the new market. In fact, most stores around here discontinued them not long after the DTV transition. AFAIK, Radio Shack still carries the digitalstream box. I'm trying to get as many boxes as I can because I know there will be a time when they are NLA and the ones we currently have will eventually die.

The cable boxes and the OTA boxes will work on virtually any TV that can receive NTSC channels 3 or 4. If the TV has 300 ohm screw-style antenna input terminals, an inexpensive 300ohm/75ohm balun can be used to connect the 75 ohm coax lead from the box to the 300 ohm VHF antenna input terminals on the TV.

[jr_tech]

Originally Posted by radiotvnut

How long will we be able to use our older TV's? I suppose that we'll be able to use them as long as there is some type of D2A converter available. As far as OTA boxes, they are already getting hard to find on the new market. In fact, most stores around here discontinued them not long after the DTV transition. AFAIK, Radio Shack still carries the digitalstream box. I'm trying to get as many boxes as I can because I know there will be a time when they are NLA and the ones we currently have will eventually die.

Specialty houses like Solid signal still seem to stock them:
http://www.solidsignal.com/cview.asp...verter%20Boxes
Amazon seems to have a good supply:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_no...Adtv+converter
I'm not too worried ...yet!
Not affiliated,
jr

[ChrisW6ATV]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

BTW, how much longer will we VKers (and anyone else) using converter boxes with older TVs be able to use these boxes? I ask because many cable systems are converting to 100 percent digital, and reception of local broadcast channels on many if not most systems will require the use of the cable operator's own cable boxes after a certain date.

The digital set-top tuners should be usable for decades, until either ATSC is replaced by another over-the-air standard (probably sooner than NTSC and its B&W predecessor were), or over-the-air itself goes away (which I have heard is possible, as awful as it sounds).

Whether cable systems become all-digital or not is a separate issue from the ATSC tuners, because they are not usable on cable anyway.

[Ed in Tx]

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

The digital set-top tuners should be usable for decades, until either ATSC is replaced by another over-the-air standard (probably sooner than NTSC and its B&W predecessor were)...

Maybe a LOT sooner. ATSC 3.0

http://broadcastengineering.com/news...011/index.html

[gellis]

Time and time again, I keep seeing DTV, ATSC, NTSC being discussed here. Extreme overkill, one thread after another beating a dead horse about converter boxes, which one is better, will this one last, this one is made in china, this one is made in korea, followed by rants that NTSC was shut down... We get it.

I think this site should be renamed converterboxkarma.org

"Your one stop resource to discuss DTV converter boxes and curb picked smoker sets from the 80's"

[jr_tech]

How about a fourth TV category, something like "Digital TV - Flat Panel" to keep these discussions off of the categories that are intended for more vintage sets?

jr

[Kamakiri]

Sounds like a plan to me. In fact, I'll make it live shortly.....

[Jeffhs]

I agree with the posters complaining about the threads on flat-panel/digital TV on the antique television category of VK, and hope the new FP and digital TV forum is up and running soon.

I'm all for a separate DTV/flat panel forum. This one, as others have noted, is for discussions of vintage and antique televisions; discussions of sets newer than the '70s definitely do not belong here.

I'll be looking forward to seeing the new forum; it is, as my subject line says, an idea whose time has come. IMHO, VK should have had a DTV forum some years ago, when DTV took over from NTSC.

[peverett]

ChrisW6ATV mentioned the possiblity of broadcast going away. This is not as far-fetched as it may seem. In fact, there is a proposal that just left committee, S. 911, to sell even more of the broadcast spectrum in the guise of helping the budget. This would not yet end broadcast TV, but would chip away at it(depending on who would give up their spectrum for what essenctially is a bribe).

My congressman is one of the sponsers and I wrote a letter to her telling her this is a very bad idea as was the last sale(over the air TV stolen from millions of Americans to help some rich phone companies in my opinion). I also asked her why are we not renting or leasing the spectrum instead of selling it if we need money that bad. Seems like this would be better for the budget and the US would retain more control over the spectums use.