Get Ready for ATSC 3.0

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

Sorry, but you are still not answering my question. When ATSC 3.0 is enacted, will it affect streaming video services such as Roku, which is already a "converter box" and gets TV programming over the Internet?

The ATSC 3.0 standard only changes the way TV is broadcast over the air. On-line streaming is and has always been an entirely separate technology. NO change to the OTA standard will directly affect streaming. It's entirely separate technology.

However, there are peripheral effects. ATSC 3.0 includes features for auxiliary streams, for example. This could be data to make clickable icons as part of the program, or provide multiple selectable camera angles in sports. The question then becomes if the streaming services will carry any of the ancillary data, not if they will carry the main program or not, which will still be determined by economic/profit considerations, just as today a cable system may carry only a station's main program and not its subchannels. ATSC 3.0 also has very flexible trade-offs of data rate vs. signal robustness in the broadcast signal, so a single transmitter can emit multiple programs (like ATSC 1.0 does) except that the video resolution and signal robustness may be very different for a stream intended for mobile reception vs. an ultra high definition stream intended for use only with a good antenna. Again, when stations are broadcasting multiple streams, a streaming service may carry only certain ones, and might, for example, down-res ultra HD to regular HD.

Since the interface from the streaming service to your streaming box is QAM, carrying internet protocol data, and the interface from the box to your TV is a HDMI cable, neither of these is affected at all by the signal format that is broadcast through the air.

What gets transferred from over-the-air stations to streaming services will continue to be determined by business considerations, not technical ones.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

The ATSC 3.0 standard only changes the way TV is broadcast over the air. On-line streaming is and has always been an entirely separate technology. NO change to the OTA standard will directly affect streaming. It's entirely separate technology.

However, there are peripheral effects. ATSC 3.0 includes features for auxiliary streams, for example. This could be data to make clickable icons as part of the program, or provide multiple selectable camera angles in sports. The question then becomes if the streaming services will carry any of the ancillary data, not if they will carry the main program or not, which will still be determined by economic/profit considerations, just as today a cable system may carry only a station's main program and not its subchannels. ATSC 3.0 also has very flexible trade-offs of data rate vs. signal robustness in the broadcast signal, so a single transmitter can emit multiple programs (like ATSC 1.0 does) except that the video resolution and signal robustness may be very different for a stream intended for mobile reception vs. an ultra high definition stream intended for use only with a good antenna. Again, when stations are broadcasting multiple streams, a streaming service may carry only certain ones, and might, for example, down-res ultra HD to regular HD.

Since the interface from the streaming service to your streaming box is QAM, carrying internet protocol data, and the interface from the box to your TV is a HDMI cable, neither of these is affected at all by the signal format that is broadcast through the air.

What gets transferred from over-the-air stations to streaming services will continue to be determined by business considerations, not technical ones.

Thank you for your explanation of ATSC 3.0. I realize the standard will not take effect until at least five years from now, but I was simply concerned, much more than I should have been, that I might have to get a new TV when the standard does take over from the current one (ATSC 1.0). My present 19-inch flat screen is almost seven years old and is used daily; it has given me such excellent service (no repairs of any kind required in all that time, and it still gives me an excellent picture using my Roku player, LG DVD player and Panasonic VCR, to say nothing of standard HD TV broadcasts) that I am not even thinking of replacing it at this point in time. My flat screen TV is an Insignia, the house brand of Best Buy. These TVs are by no means top of the line in flat screens, but they are, IMO, very good sets, and I would not hesitate to buy another if I should need to replace mine or just want a larger screen down the road.

[Jon A.]

Originally Posted by Titan1a

AM is the "last resort" should all other broadcast communication fail. There are hundreds of millions of operable receivers. Change that and I'll pull the plug on all domestic broadcast wireless listening.

No kidding. Remember AM radio dials with CONELRAD markings? Anyone who has watched Christine has seen them. I rest my case.

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by Jon A.

No kidding. Remember AM radio dials with CONELRAD markings? Anyone who has watched Christine has seen them. I rest my case.

I grew up in the Cold War era and remember very well the Conelrad icons on AM radio dials at 640 and 1240, also the Conelrad tests on radio and TV. One of my best (!) memories of the Cold War era (I'll never forget it!) is seeing a Conelrad test on TV in 1963. I was seven years old and just about jumped out of my skin the first time I saw the Conelrad symbol on our 21" Crosley TV. I did not realize this was only a Conelrad test, not "the real deal", and I ran through the living room down the long hall between there and the back of the house, scared out of my wits that the Russians were going to drop a huge bomb on our area of northeast Ohio and blow us all to kingdom come.

BTW, yes, I have seen the movie "Christine", and the tuning scale on the car's radio did in fact have the CD symbols at 640 and 1240, as did all car and home radios made between 1953 and 1963. I have a Zenith C-845 AM-FM table radio, made in 1960, that has these symbols (actually the letters "CD", not the icons themselves) at 640 and 1240 as well. These markings were placed by law on all AM radio dials so that people would not waste valuable time looking for the local Conelrad alert station when local stations went off the air per FCC regulations in effect at the time.

Another reminder of the Cold War era was a YouTube video of a Conelrad radio test gone awry, in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The station was WOWO-1190 and the DJ had just put on a record; suddenly, the sound faded to nothing and a station announcer was heard issuing a Conelrad alert. The alert turned out to have been erroneously broadcast over stations in the Fort Wayne area due to an unfortunate mixup. Do a Google search to see the entire story of this incident, which I am sure anyone who was living in the area at the time will never forget. I live 30 miles outside Cleveland, and grew up in a suburb 15 miles east of the city; however, I don't recall ever hearing any botched Conelrad alerts on local radio stations.

However, in the '70s, someone with a warped sense of humor came up with a musical version of the Conelrad (by then EBS, for Emergency Broadcast System) test, which was later banned and in fact was declared illegal. That the test was sung instead of being read from a script by an announcer was bad enough, but the worst part of that illegal Conelrad test was how it ended: "This concludes this test-----of the Emergency Broadcast System! Did you pass?" I believe that ending, and that the test was made into a singing jingle, was what finally got the jingle banned from American radio, and I don't blame the FCC for doing that, if in fact they did; after all, this was meant to be an emergency alert, meant to be read, not sung, by an announcer. IMO, whomever came up with the idea for this should have been arrested and jailed for attempting to make a mockery of the former Emergency Broadcast System. I'm sure if anyone ever tried to do this with today's Emergency Alert System (EAS), the person would in fact be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[Jon A.]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

I grew up in the Cold War era and remember very well the Conelrad icons on AM radio dials at 640 and 1240, also the Conelrad tests on radio and TV. One of my best (!) memories of the Cold War era (I'll never forget it!) is seeing a Conelrad test on TV in 1963. I was seven years old and just about jumped out of my skin the first time I saw the Conelrad symbol on our 21" Crosley TV. I did not realize this was only a Conelrad test, not "the real deal", and I ran through the living room down the long hall between there and the back of the house, scared out of my wits that the Russians were going to drop a huge bomb on our area of northeast Ohio and blow us all to kingdom come.

Yeesh, I can certainly see why that would be your clearest Cold War era memory, that would have been like a branding iron to the brain.

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

BTW, yes, I have seen the movie "Christine", and the tuning scale on the car's radio did in fact have the CD symbols at 640 and 1240, as did all car and home radios made between 1953 and 1963. I have a Zenith C-845 AM-FM table radio, made in 1960, that has these symbols (actually the letters "CD", not the icons themselves) at 640 and 1240 as well. These markings were placed by law on all AM radio dials so that people would not waste valuable time looking for the local Conelrad alert station when local stations went off the air per FCC regulations in effect at the time.

For sure, I'm just saying that Christine is likely to have introduced many people to the CONELRAD symbol, those people just wouldn't have recognized it at first. The symbol made it onto some early 1964 dials as well as deactivation came too late for design changes.

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

Another reminder of the Cold War era was a YouTube video of a Conelrad radio test gone awry, in Fort Wayne, Indiana. The station was WOWO-1190 and the DJ had just put on a record; suddenly, the sound faded to nothing and a station announcer was heard issuing a Conelrad alert. The alert turned out to have been erroneously broadcast over stations in the Fort Wayne area due to an unfortunate mixup. Do a Google search to see the entire story of this incident, which I am sure anyone who was living in the area at the time will never forget.

No kidding, and they would have at least needed a clean pair of shorts.

I don't know if nukes were a threat up here but my 1955 Pye radio scale lacks the CONELRAD symbol. It's a British design but was made at a plant in Ontario so who knows.

[centralradio]

I'm waiting for a day that all the DTV's and digital cable boxes become a brick when a special virus effects and corrupts the bios/flash chips in them and make them renderless and no fix available .That would put the numnuts that came up with the system on the spot. lease we have no issues if analog was still here.

[dieseljeep]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

I grew up in the Cold War era and remember very well the Conelrad icons on AM radio dials at 640 and 1240, also the Conelrad tests on radio and TV. One of my best (!) memories of the Cold War era (I'll never forget it!) is seeing a Conelrad test on TV in 1963. I was seven years old and just about jumped out of my skin the first time I saw the Conelrad symbol on our 21" Crosley TV. I did not realize this was only a Conelrad test, not "the real deal", and I ran through the living room down the long hall between there and the back of the house, scared out of my wits that the Russians were going to drop a huge bomb on our area of northeast Ohio and blow us all to kingdom come.

BTW, yes, I have seen the movie "Christine", and the tuning scale on the car's radio did in fact have the CD symbols at 640 and 1240, as did all car and home radios made between 1953 and 1963. I have a Zenith C-845 AM-FM table radio, made in 1960, that has these symbols (actually the letters "CD", not the icons themselves) at 640 and 1240 as well. These markings were placed by law on all AM radio dials so that people would not waste valuable time looking for the local Conelrad alert station when local stations went off the air per FCC regulations in effect at the time.


.

The worst cold war incident was the Cuban Missile Crisis. I was about 17 at the time and was scared sh#tless. Many people say, "You don't know how close we came to all-out Nuclear war".
Now we have this goof-ball with the lousy haircut to worry about.

[Jon A.]

Originally Posted by dieseljeep

Now we have this goof-ball with the lousy haircut to worry about.

I doubt you all need to worry much about him. I think a war between the US and North Korea would be something like this:

[etype2]

Jeffhs,

https://www.techhive.com/article/323...nix-first.html

http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/00...atsc-30/282269

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/h....0-test-market

ATSC 3.0 is in effect now, not 5 years from now. Did you read my above post? I tried to clarify for you, evidently I was not successful. (Beta testing is underway, we are applying to be a beta tester.)

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by etype2

Jeffhs,

https://www.techhive.com/article/323...nix-first.html

http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/00...atsc-30/282269

https://www.thebroadcastbridge.com/h....0-test-market

ATSC 3.0 is in effect now, not 5 years from now. Did you read my above post? I tried to clarify for you, evidently I was not successful. (Beta testing is underway, we are applying to be a beta tester.)

UntiI I read your post, I didn't know that ATSC 3.0 has already been enacted and is now in use, superseding its predecessor, ATSC 1.0. I read the articles your post links to, and that just reinforces what you said: that ATSC 3.0 is being tested in the Phoenix, Arizona market on that area's television stations. If the Phoenix tests go well, other areas' TV stations may adopt the new standard, although such will be entirely voluntary, not necessarily required by law.

[andy]

...

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by andy

Streaming devices like Roku and Apple TV have even shorter lives than broadcast standards. After a few years, they start dropping compatibility with older models. They either don't issue needed software updates, or certain services require more computing power than the older models have.

How many years do these players usually last before the software becomes obsolete and/or the processor becomes too slow to keep up with current standards? I upgraded to Roku 2 from Roku 1 about a year or so ago. Both players are still working very well (I tried my Roku 1 with my 22-year-old Zenith Sentry 2 TV the other day, and it still works great), although my Roku 1 is very slow compared to the newer one. If push comes to shove and I must get a new Roku next year, I will (I might upgrade even sooner, as the Roku Streaming Stick is even cheaper than what I paid for my Roku 2), but it seems I will be stuck in an endless cycle of updates--in another year or two, the Roku Streaming Stick will be rendered obsolete and I'll have to buy a new one (even though the old one may still be working perfectly well, if slowly), the player will work a couple more years, and then...here we go again.

Oh well. As I stated earlier, the Roku Streaming Stick will cost me even less than a cable subscription (I don't have cable any longer, but must at least have a cable account so the Spectrum/former Time Warner Cable TV app will receive local TV stations), and I may not have to upgrade again for at least a couple of years, or whenever Roku declares the Streaming Stick obsolete (however, they probably will have a newer version of the stick available by then, so the chances are I will probably have nothing to worry about). If I didn't have a DVD player, I'd upgrade to the Roku version that has a universal TV remote, but that remote presently won't operate auxiliary devices such as DVDs; besides, I already have an RCA universal remote that has operated my entire video system, including the Roku, flawlessly for the last couple of years, so having a universal Roku remote would be redundant, to say the least.

One nice thing about the Roku players, IMO, is the basic ones won't empty your wallet and so can be replaced with newer ones at minimal cost, although the more advanced ones go for over $100. I think a lot of Roku owners who have version 4 and up won't be too happy with having to spend another $100+ when the units eventually go out of date.

Well, that's the way it goes, I guess.

[Jon A.]

Originally Posted by Jeffhs

How many years do these players usually last before the software becomes obsolete and/or the processor becomes too slow to keep up with current standards?

I was thinking how it's the same thing with modern computers, after about a decade using them to ride the information superhighway is like driving a car with a plugged cat. Of course the software upgrades cost more than the computers which is one reason I'd prefer to do most other things on a pre-candyland Power Mac given the choice.

[andy]

...

[Jeffhs]

Originally Posted by andy

While, the Roku 1 still works, it has limited compatibility. For example, HBO no longer works on the Roku 1. I'n not sure which other services stopped working.

My Tivo series 3 still works fine as a DVR, but it has lost most of the streaming services, it can no longer be programmed via their web site, or app, and Tivo won't let new customers activate them.

I recently read online that the Roku 1 is now considered obsolete; support for it will end in a very short time. Roku's other Internet devices (Roku 2, 3, 4, et al.), however, will continue to be supported until further notice. That the HBO app no longer works on your Roku 1 bears this out, and is only the beginning. You will probably (even likely) notice that, one by one, the streaming apps will stop until nothing works. When everything stops, you will know your Roku 1 is no longer usable. I have a Roku 1 myself, but I am not in the least concerned about it becoming obsolete for at least two reasons: one, I have had a Roku 2 (which still works very well) for over a year, and two, I just purchased a 32" flat screen TV, to which my Roku 2 is connected. I mention this because I had originally planned to use the Roku 1 on one of my analog TVs if and when my 19" flat screen fails; however, since I now have the 32" Insignia FP and will keep the 19" set for a standby unit, I have no use for my Roku 1, which has composite video output. This type of video and audio output is, you guessed it, obsolete, which is why Roku's version 2, 3, 4... Internet devices only have one HDMI port for audio and video output to the television. This was done because analog TV is now obsolete, and most folks now have flat screens. There is just no use for composite audio/video output jacks on Rokus any longer.

Your DVR is likely obsolete (or close to it) as well, if most streaming services no longer work. TiVo is refusing to allow activation of any DVR as old as yours because they cannot be bothered with old technology. Time marches on, and eventually even the newest technology will become obsolete. There once was a joke in computer circles that said a computer (for example; this applies to other technology as well) will be obsolete the second you walk out of the store with it (or get it home). Today, however, that isn't a joke anymore. Technology changes so rapidly that most of it is obsolete (or, again, close to it) shortly after the devices come on the market.