Which brand is this color TV?

[firenzeprima]

Thank you: old TV nut, Dave A, bgadov and Sandy G for information and research, look what I found on another magazine that was published in May 1976 in Italy and spoke of the imminent start of color TV. The same image of boys dressed by Indian and surrounded by toys. the same that we find on the second TV SET brand still unidentified. There seems strange? Who was the institution which used this type of image as the pattern for color TV SET distance of many years?
Dear old TV nut, even in Italy at the beginning there were many industries tv, then with the advent of color PAL, are all missing, or acquired by other big brands. phenomenon that I mentioned in a special chapter on the advent of color TV in Italy in my thesis at the University.

[old_tv_nut]

This picture was a test slide that was widely used - I just can't remember if we had a copy at Zenith, or perhaps I saw it at CBS Labs while I was at Motorola.

Regarding "matting" of the pictures - they are not matted, which fact can be seen by the correct perspective and the shadow of the lighting on the foreground set's face. However, these sorts of photos were typically dione by double exposure. First the scene would be photographed with the lights on and the people in place, but the TV sets turned off, with filtration for incandescent light. Then all the lights would be turned off and the TV pictures exposed with whatever color filtration was needed to match the phosphors and white point to the film. (With most film formulas, the sensitivity to the red phosphor was not very good, plus most home sets were set to a very blue color temperature.) It is also likely that a slow shutter speed was used, thus the pose of the man with all parts of his body touching something to keep him stationary.

[dtuomi]

The slide is called Boy with Toys and is a pretty common slide for flesh tone and color. I think the BBC originally developed it, although I don't know that for sure. I know it used to be a pretty common one. I once upon a time had a camera card of it that I would use to line up studio cameras so that they all matched in color.

David

[firenzeprima]

then could be a British laboratory and the brand of TV SET yet unidentified could be manufactured in England. could be a good clue. fernando

[old_tv_nut]

Yes, I remember the name "boy with toys." Still can't recall how I know that. The EVR project that Motorola had in cooperation with CBS Labs also involved a British firm that was set up to make the film cartridges - so I could have seen it there.

http://www.labguysworld.com/Motorola_EVR.htm

[firenzeprima]

also nordmende in the'70s had produced a device to see 8mm films on television. I do not know if it was a thing of their manufacturing, the fact remains that you can not know what brand are the two colour TV SET

[yagosaga]

Hi firenzeprima,

I believe the photos were taken from the experimental period of PAL color television in 1963 to 1966. Here are some photos for comparison.

Blaupunkt1966.jpg shows the front of a color tv documentation (note the round screen!)

ExperimentalColorTVlaboratoryWDR.jpg shows the color television laboratory of the West German Broadcasting Corporation (WDR) in Cologne.

UniversityHanover1966.jpg shows a PAL color television demonstration in the Engineering School of Hanover.

Kind regards,
Eckhard

[firenzeprima]

Hi yagosaga,
what you told me is very interesting, as for the photos that you have attached to me, I believe that the last is a kind of history by the development of colour TV, from experiments to the TV SET for the market. you you have the other to be published?
Note that the photo of "child with toys" is reverse compared to those that I have. So here there is a triangulation between France, Germany and England with regard to TV SET to be identified,,,
thanks for the information! Fernando

[cbenham]

Originally Posted by Dave A

What vintage is that scope and when did what I call "camera bars" (non-SMPTE) appear? Dave A

The scope looks like an HP from the early 1960s. Both EIA and split field bars are available from the Tektronix R146 Generator, probably 1969 or maybe earlier.

[Dave A]

I sent the photo to Marcel van Grinsven of marcelstvmuseum.com. He replied;

"I have never seen this color tv in The Netherlands, only the 21KX100A. I have two 21KX100A color tv's.
On the background a monitor with the Philips logo. See the picture.

Perhaps french Philips, france use the SECAM color system. The Netherlands use the PAL color system.
Philips has worldwide factories where tv's were made, in Europe: The Netherlands, Germany, France, Sweden and United Kingdom.
In the sixties sold Philips only for the local market. The countries had several tv systems.

Best regards,
Marcel van Grinsven."

There is a logo and script in the lower left of the rear color monitor. He may be right on the Philips.

Dave A

[firenzeprima]

if an authoritative collector and expert as Marcel van Grinsven declare that they have never seen similar devices then it becomes really difficult. however, the fact is that the brand is certainly the European Union. perhaps a factory that does not esite more. here in Italy in the'50s and'60s there were many, for example CREZAR, PRANDONI, ATLANTIC, CENTURY, GALAXY, NUCLAR RADIO, PHOENIX, PRINCE, ULTRAVOX. Today they are all disappeared. Fernando
Italiano » Inglese Traduci

[jhalphen]

Hello FirenzePrima,

You wrote:
"Images are extracted from a book for children called "Tell me how it works." In language original; "Dis, comment ca marche" Translate in italian "Dimmi come funziona" I found the book, and I went to see the press. is the library Hachette Paris years 1972 and all authors of the book are French, then you might think that the photo is taken by a French laboratory."

what do you think of this TV?
It's a French prototype SECAM set designed by Henri de France's company CFT (Compagnie Française de Television) & built by Thomson. All early color developments in France used US 21" round color CRTs as no tubes were being produced in Europe.

The first truly Euro-developped & built was the Philips A6311X a 25" rectangular tube. It was produced in Dreux (France) by RTC, a Philips subsidiary. All 1st generation Euro color TVs at the launch of PAL & SECAM in the fall of 1967 used this tube.

Best Regards

jhalphen

[firenzeprima]

what do you think of this TV?
It's a French prototype SECAM set designed by Henri de France's company CFT (Compagnie Française de Television) & built by Thomson. All early color developments in France used US 21" round color CRTs as no tubes were being produced in Europe.

The first truly Euro-developped & built was the Philips A6311X a 25" rectangular tube. It was produced in Dreux (France) by RTC, a Philips subsidiary. All 1st generation Euro color TVs at the launch of PAL & SECAM in the fall of 1967 used this tube.

Best Regards

Hello Jhalphen,
There is no doubt is that !!!!! (except the fourth knob with us in my photos)
Then on the label there is written and SECAM it is a prototype. Discovery of mystery! where did you find the photo you have sent me?
thanks for the research! If you have noticed about the colour system SECAM network there are hardly any news about his father Henry De France, unlike the other Sarnoff and Walter Bruch

best regards fernando

[jhalphen]

Hello Fernando,

The picture was posted on the French TV Forum, a sub-forum of RadioFil.

I think it was taken by someone who visited the private collection of Jacques Poinsignon, a former Thomson engineer who worked in cooperation with the CFT in early French color developments.

Jacques Poinsignon died a few months ago. I visited him with a friend 3 years ago, but it was in his country house and the TV is in his Paris house.
The gentleman hoped all his life to set up a TV Museum, but never got help from the French government. The collection has not been dispersed, he is survived by an aged widow and 2 sons.

About Henri de France, i can confirm there is astonishingly litte published data about the man. Part of the reason is that France regards more highly artists, writers, etc. rather than engineers, the other reason is that he was reproached to have had contacts with Nazi German officials while France was occupied. I suppose anyone doing research in occupied France, would have some contacts with the occupying forces, if only to get electronic components which were entirely shifted away from consumer electronics to the war effort.

De France was a quiet and shy man, a "Lab Rat" smoking his pipe and which fled publicity. He lived alone and was passionate about his hobby: model trains.

In French TV circles, it is quite accepted now that the seed idea for SECAM came from 1930s pioneer René Barthelemy and not de France. Discussing about color in the late 30s (De France was an assistant to Barthelemy at the CDC - Compagnie des Compteurs in Montrouge) Barthelemy would have told De France "we/you should into transmitting colors sequentially". After the war, De France remembered the conversation and built all the hardware to make SECAM a working color system.

See Roger Dupouy's site on French TV developments of the 30s and his working repros of 30/60/180 cameras & receivers. Roger is an authority on René Barthelemy's life & career.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/roger.dupouy

Best Regards

J.Halphen

[firenzeprima]

perhaps you are right you on the exclusion of De france by the governments of France, because on SECAM system the State was appalling. you placed an excerpt of my thesis university where precisely stretch of war color in Italy.
is a little long but a fan of this sector can be interesting.
<<.... In 1965, Parliament had decided to postpone until 1970 the introduction of
although color broadcasts since 1962 from the transmitter of Mount Mario, in
to Rome, irradiavano first experimental television signals color
with the American system N.T.S.C. (National Television System Committee) and
studies were subsequently equipped recovery in polychrome transmissions.
But such a system immediately showed its
technical limitations, men and things you
moved on the screen not only had
Color decidedly unreal, but in
Additionally, extremely volatile. A face
color cyclamen that became orange
and then violet or green was a
something completely normal in addition a general
Haze would roll continuously
the screen and make the vision a task
faticosissimo, so much so that the system was renamed fiercely Never
Twice the Same Color, that is never twice the same color.
In 1966 in Rome were organised as part of office received from
radiotelevisioni European, a series of demonstrations with comparative systems
N.T.S.C. American of 1953, S.E.C.A.M. (Sequential Coleur a Memoire)
French 1959 and P.A.L. (Phase Alternation Line) German (Patented by
TELEFUNKEN) of 1965, the Technical Commission of RAI concluded that the
German system was among the three systems in competition, the best will therefore
Italian delegation is presented at the conference EBU (European Union of
Broadcasting) in Oslo in 1966 with a mandate to express its preferences
for PAL, this did lead to reactions by the systems excluded
triggering a relentless struggle for "placing" their own system.
This led to the sinking of European television system
colors.
The presenter Aba searched posing in a study
R.A.I. equipped for the shooting color experiments.
In this connection was formed in France a body called INTERSECAM
that was intended to promote the system oltralpe worldwide.
Note that during 1969 almost all European nations
had introduced the color in their television broadcasts. The R.A.I., although
already equipped to do it, was hampered by Parliament for reasons of rigour
economic, and even the automobile concerned that the new
Consumer durable (color TV) constituted a dangerous alternative to purchase
the second machine. Italy, as for all major decisions,
was to be the subject of controversy after requests that the Board
technique was expressed in favour of P.A.L..
The head of the French Fifth Republic (godfather of SECAM) did know,
through intermediaries, which would have listened with the ear benevolent
requests for export of agricultural products Italians if it had opted for the S.
E.C.A.M.. The R.A.I. el'Istituto Superior PP.TT., to satisfy the
French instances, conducted an additional investigation that instead unleashed
an upward game between Germany and France especially in terms politicoindustriale.
The successor of De Gaulle, Georges Pompidou, seeing that the system SE
C.A.M. Italy was losing ground pulled out of the sleeve the ace-ristor
1968: The director of "Studio P1" of R.A.I. The Rome "Studio P1" for shooting colour equipped by RCA
Rome: comparative tests between systems S.E.C.A.M. and P.A.L.
no on the 0.60% 0.75% that would have paid on profits to take advantage
Patent S.E.C.A.M..
To satisfy the parties are contenders ended up taking a typical decision
Italian: was established to transmit by both systems for the Olympics
Monaco of 1972. This solution ridette hopes the French, but did jump
on all furie German politicians who threatened not to grant more
requested loan of two million Dollars. Despite all the evening of 26
August iridati the circles of the Olympic banner appeared on the video. Even
was also taken into consideration by the Italian government, called
to choose between the French and Germans opting for some and salomonicamente
furbescamente for other the adoption of both systems, accepting the formula
"bistandard" but this assumption proved to be technically and economically
now impractical for the fact that it would increase the cost of radio
broadcasting and TV not to mention the controversy that would
triggered on which programs broadcast in PAL and what in S.E.C.A.M. with
all dietrologie appropriate.
After this took place parentheses other prevarications even if it was now
quite clear that the P.A.L. had won the "campaign of Italy", but that was not
the last word because the INDESIT Turin did know that they have developed,
in collaboration with the SEIMART, their own system, the ISA
(Identification Elimination Alternata) Dr. Ballabeni of SEIMART
declared that it was the alternative to national and foreign proposals that would
resolved, both the long-running problem of choice, both the duty to pay royalties
due to systems P.A.L. or S.E.C.A.M.. By now it was too late even if the new
system was better technically was not under the point of view politicoeconomico
and therefore was abandoned. Finally reached on 11 August 1975
days in which the Head of State issued the Presidential Decree No. 452 with which
ufficializzava the choice for the German system and gave a time for the beginning years
transmissions.
It must be said that the choice of system P.A.L. arrecò a major injury to
Manufacturers of television sets as Italy, if he had chosen the
SECA.M., for his position would become "the central pier"
buying a critical about the transmitters. Hence the interest
French to Italy to adopt, perhaps even with a solution
"Bistandard", the system SECAM, France would have been willing to build,
at its own expense, a powerful transmitter not only in Corsica, for use
of central Italy, but also in Sicily, for use by the North African coast; consequently,
because the countries among the largest producers of oil had
adopted the system French, Italian manufacturers of television sets with system
S.E.C.A.M. would find new market outlets in exchange for no less
oil; without counting the influence of choice for other countries
affacciavano is on the Mediterranean such as Spain and Greece who waited
the decision of Italy to navigate accordingly. The choice of system
German led instead to a slow but unstoppable process of crisis
Italian television that brought in the years to follow the closure of many
factories producing TV.
In the spring of 1976 was exceptionally decided to forward the color
Montreal Olympics which took place in July of that year. Only
from 1 February 1977 R.A.I. officially began television broadcasting in
colors exiting a tunnel of uncertainty and controversy lasted well 12 years. ...>>>