Article about General Electric 15CL100

[etype2]

Originally Posted by benman94

For all intents and purposes, BOTH the Admiral and the Zenith are prototypes. The Westy was the first set produced in quantity. The Admiral and Zenith were built in vanishingly small numbers. They survive in similar numbers. One of them, the Zenith, was *actually sold* to third party, WGN, before any other manufacturer sold a set. With all due respect, your argument for the Admiral is specious at best. CBS sold a field sequential set first, Zenith sold what was probably the first all-electronic set. I don't see how you can still argue for the Admiral.

More evidence:

Article published January 4, 1954 in the Pittsburgh Press.

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-c...s/IMG_1264.jpg

Article published February 21, 1954 from the Pittsburg Press: “100% trade-in allowance toward color television on any new set purchased from us now.”

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-c...s/IMG_1263.jpg

Article published April,9 1954
http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-c...s/image33.jpeg

This, plus everything I previously posted is why I believe the Admiral 15 inch color set was the first all electronic color set to be marketed and publicly for sale.

Of course the CBS was the first color set. The Zenith that sold was a commercial sale, not a consumer sale and was and is considered a prototype.

[benman94]

The Zenith was a prototype, but so was the Admiral. Both were developed to the point where they probably could have been sold (the Zenith actually was!) and based on survival rates, it isn't a leap to conclude they were built in similar numbers. Seven Zeniths are known to exist to three or four Admirals. Hell the Zeniths may have been built in numbers exceeding the so-called production model Admiral. We aren't even sure if Admiral sold one of their sets, whereas we know Zenith did. Anyway, this whole argument hinges on your definition of a prototype (one I strongly disagree with), and your belief that the WGN sale somehow doesn't count because it wasn't to a member of the public. I think we'll have to simply agree to disagree on the topic...

[Electronic M]

If you argue a prototype as being a set designed before the [NTSC] standard, then the CT-100 could be considered a prototype too. Sure it had some minor circuit and cabinet changes, but it is pretty much a model 5 prototype pushed into mass-production. ...Even mass-production is not a good delineation between a prototype and production model since many later consumer model sets (even 21"ers) were made in such limited quantities that production methods often were the same as small run demonstration prototypes like the model 5.

IMO the true delineation between prototype and consumer set is in whether the company intentionally sold them to civilians [members of the general public not working for the TV industry] through their dealers. Every model has a prototype...what makes a set consumer is when someone brings the prototype to production as-is and says 'make X more just like this and add them to our current consumer offerings'.

[benman94]

I never thought of it that way Tom, but you're right, even mass production makes a poor line in the sand. There are currently 7 known '55-'56 Hoffman Colorcasters; they're even rarer than the 15 inch Westy, the RCA CT-100, 21-CT-55s, and the CTC-4s.

I still maintain that the supposed advertisements for the Admiral are little more than hyperbolic drivel used by Admiral to enhance their image in the mind of the public, especially in light of the advertisement for the 1955 Admiral 21 incher that didn't exist. I suppose the issue could only be settled by doing the impossible: going back in time to December of 1953, and attempting to order a C1617A from them. Regardless, it doesn't really matter; when most collectors think of the first color TV, they're likely to conjure mental images of a CT-100 or 15 inch Westy, be that correct, incorrect, or otherwise....

[Tom9589]

This is beginning top sound like the Ford vs. Chevy debate which we all know will never be settled. (I own one of each)

[benman94]

Originally Posted by Tom9589

This is beginning top sound like the Ford vs. Chevy debate which we all know will never be settled. (I own one of each)

Ford vs. Chevy is like arguing whether you'd rather have ebola or rabies... Dodge/Chrysler products are where it's at!

[Electronic M]

Originally Posted by benman94

Ford vs. Chevy is like arguing whether you'd rather have ebola or rabies... Dodge/Chrysler products are where it's at!

I've got strains of both (Lincoln and GMC), and my folks got the Asiatic flu (Honda)...I've heard enough tails of low mileage Mopar working like crap that newer mopar (aside from their retro muscle cars) seem like the plague to me.

[Tom9589]

The Ford and Chevy I own are SUVs. For sedans, I've only owned Mercedes-Benz since 1975. Nothing else comes even close.

[Steve D.]

Think we've wandered off topic a bit. Just saying.

-Steve D.

[etype2]

Bringing it back on topic. Steve, your point about advertising is well taken ..... but, for instance the RCA 21CT55. It seems they did about zero advertiseing on that set which was only available a short time (6 months?). Other then the "Big Color" ad found by Wayne, I have not been able to find a single ad, only things in RCA technical publications.

There was one ad showing all the parts of the set laid out in front of it, but that was in an RCA publication. After extensive searching, I did find one obscure ad by a tire company of all things in South Boston, Va. published January 20, 1955 and that's it.

On the Sony KV 7010U Chromatron, I have searched everywhere I can think of and can't come up with one single ad or dealer handout. Only the service manual. Even queried the Sony Archive Museum in Tokyo and they know nothing of it.

Back in the 80's before computers, the only way an enthusiast could find information was from magazines or newspapers. I learned about the Sharp Crystaltron 3 inch color LCD from magazines. It was a breakthrough product at the time and I wanted one. Could not find a single ad anywhere so I looked up the nearest Sharp distributer near me. They were in Sacramento, CA. Called and they indeed had the Crystaltron. I made arrangements to meet him, he had it in three colors and I ended up buying from a distributor! Today on the internet, I can find manufacture ads on the Crystaltron, but at the time no ads could be found.

In the case of the Admiral 15 inch color set, it was a real niche market in 1954. You either had to be well heeled or a techie/early adopter. RCA had name recognition and the money to advertise, plus the fact they were the top daug, big promoters of color television with an enormous vested interest to succeed. I think Admiral was watching what RCA did carefully and whenever RCA launched a new product, they responded in kind, but on a much smaller scale. Color TV in 1954 was very slow for the reasons Steve said earlier. Both manufacturers terminated production of their first sets about the same time. I have found newspaper articles verifying this. If you read the biography of the President of Admiral, you will get insights into the man. He wanted to be first with innovation.

I suspect that other dealers like Beacon TV had the Admiral sets in their stores, but sold very few if any. RCA had the name, if folks were going to spend that big money for a color set, it was going to be an RCA. That is my personal view and two cents.

[benman94]

etype2,

Your points are well taken, but also consider that some of the sets in those stores may have actually been strictly for demo purposes. J.L. Hudson's, Detroit's flagship department store (and at one time the second largest in the world behind Macy's) had numerous 15G based sets on display in 1954. A period ad on microfiche at the Detroit Public Library lists Majestic and Raytheon-Belmont as among the manufacturers with a set at Hudson's. To my knowledge no examples of either survive, so it isn't unreasonable to conclude they were probably prototypes not destined for the public.

Is it possible that Beacon TV was lent the Admiral, with the understanding that it NOT be sold?

[etype2]

Originally Posted by benman94

etype2,

Your points are well taken, but also consider that some of the sets in those stores may have actually been strictly for demo purposes. J.L. Hudson's, Detroit's flagship department store (and at one time the second largest in the world behind Macy's) had numerous 15G based sets on display in 1954. A period ad on microfiche at the Detroit Public Library lists Majestic and Raytheon-Belmont as among the manufacturers with a set at Hudson's. To my knowledge no examples of either survive, so it isn't unreasonable to conclude they were probably prototypes not destined for the public.

Is it possible that Beacon TV was lent the Admiral, with the understanding that it NOT be sold?

Ben,

Very good information about J.L. Hudson. I grew up in Milwaukee and remember that store.

Consider what the Beacon TV's advertisement said "100% trade-in allowance toward color television on any new set purchased from us now".

I believe this is very good evidence that the set was indeed for sale. Do I think the Admiral set displayed at that time was a "loaner"? Very possible. I do believe Beacon TV was taking purchase orders and if executed, to my mind that constitutes a "sale".

[Electronic M]

I wonder if any persons from that store or kids of people that were interested in buying color are still living and remember someone inquiring of purchasing one those sets and if the sale was permitted?

[etype2]

Originally Posted by Electronic M

I wonder if any persons from that store or kids of people that were interested in buying color are still living and remember someone inquiring of purchasing one those sets and if the sale was permitted?

I'm still trying to find other newspaper clippings about the Admiral set. I found a newspaper clipping in April, 1954 stating that "Admiral has begun to ship its second series of color sets with a price reduction of $175." No doubt to match the price of the RCA CT-100 that went on sale in April, 1954.

[Electronic M]

Originally Posted by etype2

I'm still trying to find other newspaper clippings about the Admiral set. I found a newspaper clipping in April, 1954 stating that "Admiral has begun to ship its second series of color sets with a price reduction of $175." No doubt to match the price of the RCA CT-100 that went on sale in April, 1954.

That certainly strongly implies that the earlier sets and the second series were indeed for sale to the public....Otherwise why even price them?