Videokarma.org

Go Back   Videokarma.org TV - Video - Vintage Television & Radio Forums > Television Broadcast Gear

We appreciate your help

in keeping this site going.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 12-19-2010, 10:33 PM
bgadow's Avatar
bgadow bgadow is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Federalsburg, MD
Posts: 5,814
Why Did NBC Use Trinitrons?

I've been watching recordings of Saturday Night Live from the early 80s. Here we have a rather notable show being broadcast live from the headquarters of RCA, yet on many episodes they use Trinitrons as monitors or props. I could snap photos if anyone wanted. I have seen some shots where you can see the main monitors used for the audience and they look to be RCA sets; was there some special reason for using the Sonys? Cost, image quality? It seems like this would really get under the skin of somebody in their broadcast equipment sales division!
__________________
Bryan
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 12-21-2010, 08:56 PM
old_tv_nut's Avatar
old_tv_nut old_tv_nut is offline
See yourself on Color TV!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rancho Sahuarita
Posts: 7,184
When Trinitrons appeared, they outshone other sets in brightness and maintaining color purity at high brightness, whereas shadow mask tubes would "dome" and lose purity around constant bright areas. The smaller screen Trinitrons also had a very carefully controlled video frequency rolloff so there was no trace of chroma dot crawl that might cause a moire with the phosphor stripe structure. They had a very good luma transient response shape without ringing or unsymmetrical response on edges. Also, the roll-off made any high frequency noise in the video invisible. Station/studio people loved them, because it made their pictures look so clean, even though you couldn't really see fine detail. It was a case of "see no evil" in case there was a high frequency problem with a studio's signal. The larger Trinitron professional monitors had a better luma frequency response, but the great majority of monitors in use that video folks were gaga over were the smaller ones.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 12-21-2010, 09:01 PM
old_tv_nut's Avatar
old_tv_nut old_tv_nut is offline
See yourself on Color TV!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rancho Sahuarita
Posts: 7,184
By the way, I know someone who worked at Tektronix on a project to make the ultimate NTSC monitor. They used a tube with a very small spot and fine triad pitch, so that you could see black between the scanning lines, like a high resolution high-def or black and white tube. They only made one and canned the project, because the NTSC pictures just looked awful with all that unnecessary resolution and line twitter.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 12-21-2010, 11:33 PM
etype2's Avatar
etype2 etype2 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Valley of the Sun, formerly Silicon Valley, formerly Packer Land.
Posts: 1,487
The Trinitron system employed a one gun (instead of three in conventional sets) inline three beam tube with one large lens instead of three small lens in conventional color sets. The three inline beams, red, green and blue, focused though the center of one large lens instead of using almost the entire lens times three in conventional sets. Photographers understand the concept, one achieves the sharpest image when the lens is closed down, IE; using only the center portion which is the sharpest with least distortion. Because the beams were inline, Sony created color phosphor strips instead of the conventional triad arrangement. To match this new phosphor arrangement, Sony re-invented the shadow mask, calling it an Aperture Grill which also were arranged in vertical, unbroken slots to match the color strips. This allowed more light to pass though. RCA sets from the 50’s blocked 85% of the light with their shadow masks. Sony’s aperture grill design of 1968, blocked only 25% of the light. Additionally this new vertical alignment of phosphor and aperture grill gave the tube a new, appealing look. The tube was vertically flat and reduced vertical reflections. This new system was a revelation improvement in picture quality. Folks noticed immediately the increased clarity, focus, brightness and color quality. Additionally, because the Trinitron only used one gun and one lens, they greatly reduced the convergence requirements over conventional color TV. I have owned numerous Trinitron TV’s, not one required convergence adjustment. In the day, the difference was almost as big as high definition is to standard definition. The rest is history, becoming the most successful color television and even winning an Emmy award for technical excellence in 1973. Advancements led to a flat screen CRT which eliminated distortion and reflections, a new phosphor for increased contrast and super fine pitch. These high end models were used in hospitals and professional fields. The Trinitron CRT was imitated but never equaled and sold in sets with 3.7 inch all the way up to 40 inch. (a 43 inch model was available in the Japanese market) Sony’s patent expired in 1996 and other companies were free to use the design. With the advent of flat panel television, Sony shut down production in early 2008.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-22-2010, 12:28 AM
Eric H's Avatar
Eric H Eric H is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: So. Calif
Posts: 11,565
Could have been product placement, usually when brands are shown on a Network TV show it's because the manufacturer has paid to have it shown, prominently.

Also back in the day nothing could touch a Sony for picture quality.
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #6  
Old 12-22-2010, 08:44 AM
old_tv_nut's Avatar
old_tv_nut old_tv_nut is offline
See yourself on Color TV!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rancho Sahuarita
Posts: 7,184
Early on, it was not so much product placement as the small Trinitrons producing a bright picture that could compete with studio lights.

Regarding the ultimate comparison of Trinitrons to later shadow mask tubes, the comparison was not THAT great. The shadow mask did originally block 85% of the electrons, the Trinitron grille less - but neither one can ever block less than 67% (2/3). Eventually many tubes reached 25% TRANSMISSION (75% blocking). Trinitrons also started out being poorer contrast in bright room lighting because of the higher percentage of the screen that was phosphor due to the continuous stripes. This was improved as more screen space was devoted to black matrix, and darker faceplate glass was used. The Trinitron had more capability to trade brightness for contrast, since it could be run with higher beam current before losing purity, and therefore darker glass could be used (but wasn't at first). The reason was that the aperture grille was under tension, so it would not move until it was so hot that it sagged.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 05-23-2014, 09:40 AM
J Ballard J Ballard is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 39
Hi-
I don't think there was any conscious effort to favor one monitor type over another. Usually, it came down to the best price negotiated by NBC sourcing.

The Trinitrons exhibited higher luminace output w/o mask distortion, so were good on-set monitors in non critical areas. But the audience monitors suspended from the lighting grid were definitely RCA consumer sets with a composite input.

When Sarnoff was alive, there was much more adherence to the use of RCA made equipment at NBC, but as the Broadcast Equipment division waned, NBC enjoyed a little more freedom in buying non-RCA equipment.

But when it came to major equipment, such as transmitters,cameras, and VTRs, it was RCA at NBC. Period.

I recall discussing with a Burbank manager his choice for new VTRs for an edit suite, and that they were visiting Ampex to scout the latest AVR-3. The suite got RCA TR-600s. End of story.

Some manufacturers, Tektronix for one, used the trinitron in monitors designed for critical viewing. I believe they were the same tube used in consumer sets. In any case, these monitors concealed defects and were poor in resolution as compared to delta-delta gun type monitors. Later, TEK switched to a D-D type in their 690 series monitor.

In my days at NBC, Conrac was still the monitor of choice, but Japanese maker Ikegami came in at a lower price in the late 80s, despite many faults. Later, many faults were corrected.

When NBC negotiated equipment deals for the Olympics, Sony offered favorable terms, and Sony is now the most prominent top end monitor at NBC.

Regards
J Ballard
23 years at NBC
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 05-23-2014, 10:45 AM
dieseljeep dieseljeep is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 7,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric H View Post
Could have been product placement, usually when brands are shown on a Network TV show it's because the manufacturer has paid to have it shown, prominently.

Also back in the day nothing could touch a Sony for picture quality.
I picked up two Sony KV1212 sets, that were altered to be used as a color monitor.
The were used in the GE proto-type lab, when they were building their first MRI machines. The CRT's had screen burn, from standing images. As a joke, I asked why GE didn't use their Porta-Colors, as a display.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 05-23-2014, 01:08 PM
Chip Chester Chip Chester is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 759
I think etype2 hit it with this: "The tube was vertically flat and reduced vertical reflections."

In TV land, at the time, 90% of the lighting was from overhead on the lighting grid. Cylindrical, non-spherical CRTs on the set pieces means virtually no reflections or glare from overhead sources. No lighting guys up on ladders trying to flag off "hits" on the screen that wash out the content being displayed, so the set was cheaper to light.

(Plus, they look good.)

It's the same reason actors usually wear flat lenses in their TV/movie glasses. It cuts the nearly infinite number of possible directions glare could be coming from -- down to just one.

Chip
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 05-23-2014, 02:16 PM
wa2ise's Avatar
wa2ise wa2ise is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 3,147
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Ballard View Post

The Trinitrons exhibited higher luminace output w/o mask distortion, so were good on-set monitors in non critical areas. But the audience monitors suspended from the lighting grid were definitely RCA consumer sets with a composite input.

When Sarnoff was alive, there was much more adherence to the use of RCA made equipment at NBC, but as the Broadcast Equipment division waned, NBC enjoyed a little more freedom in buying non-RCA equipment.
Back in the 80's I worked for the RCA Labs in Princeton, and we had a few Sony monitors we used in our lecture halls. Though the Sony logo was covered over with "World Video" stickers.
__________________
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
  #11  
Old 05-23-2014, 04:07 PM
Sandy G's Avatar
Sandy G Sandy G is offline
Spiteful Old Cuss
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Rogersville, Tennessee
Posts: 9,571
Quote:
Originally Posted by wa2ise View Post
Back in the 80's I worked for the RCA Labs in Princeton, and we had a few Sony monitors we used in our lecture halls. Though the Sony logo was covered over with "World Video" stickers.
But that likely fooled NO ONE, because of the Trinitron's distinctive shape...Seems like I remember seeing a Trinitron cobbled into a contemporary RCA/Zenith/Moto console... They'd done a REASONABLE job, but anybody who knew anything about TVs KNEW what it was.. Trinitrons MUST have been VERY stable, too, because anytime they wanted/had to show a TV operating on TV, it most likely was a Trinitron.
__________________
Benevolent Despot
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-23-2014, 07:24 PM
etype2's Avatar
etype2 etype2 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Valley of the Sun, formerly Silicon Valley, formerly Packer Land.
Posts: 1,487
It's ironic because the Trinitron is basically an improved, modified Chromatron. Most of the original 1951 ideas from the original Chromatron were incorporated into the Trinitron.

It's ironic because the Chromatron was one of the competing systems along with CBS and RCA for selection by the FCC. RCA won, but 14 years later the Trinitron went to market and dominated as the best selling color television until flat screens took over.
__________________
Personal website dedicated to Vintage Television https://visions4netjournal.com
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-23-2014, 09:40 PM
old_tv_nut's Avatar
old_tv_nut old_tv_nut is offline
See yourself on Color TV!
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Rancho Sahuarita
Posts: 7,184
Quote:
Originally Posted by etype2 View Post
It's ironic because the Trinitron is basically an improved, modified Chromatron. Most of the original 1951 ideas from the original Chromatron were incorporated into the Trinitron.

It's ironic because the Chromatron was one of the competing systems along with CBS and RCA for selection by the FCC. RCA won, but 14 years later the Trinitron went to market and dominated as the best selling color television until flat screens took over.
You are confusing the Chromatron tube with the Color Television Incorporated line-sequential system that was proposed as an alternative to CBS and RCA systems. The technologies are not related.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-24-2014, 09:48 AM
etype2's Avatar
etype2 etype2 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Valley of the Sun, formerly Silicon Valley, formerly Packer Land.
Posts: 1,487
Yes I misstated. One of the constant complaints of the RCA system was the very dim color. One had to turn the lights down and draw the drapes in homes to see the image clearly. Another problem, color fringing on black and white programs and blurred images with color. This is why the Chromatron (and other systems such as the Apple tube by Philco) were proposed.

Chromatic Laboratory a subsidiary of Paramount Pictures Corporation built several prototype Chromatron chassis's which were encoded to accept one or three gun Chromatron tubes. Chromatic pitched the virtues of the design to all the manufactures. That is what I meant and should have said.

Citation: THE PDF CHROMATRON-A SINGLE OR MULTI-GUN TRI-COLOR CATHODE-RAY TUBE by Robert Dressler from the PROCEEDINGS OF THE I.R.E. VOL.41, NO. 7, JULY, 1953.

“Described in this paper is a single gun and three gun version of a simple color cathode-ray tube developed by Chromatic Television Laboratories, Inc., based on the ideas of Dr. Ernest O. Lawrence of the University of California. Both types utilize post deflection focusing (PDF) and acceleration as will be discussed in the body of this paper. The principles described are quite general and may be applied to other cathode-ray tube and camera tube designs. The single and three gun types discussed below will operate with any of the presently proposed color television transmission systems.”
__________________
Personal website dedicated to Vintage Television https://visions4netjournal.com

Last edited by etype2; 05-24-2014 at 11:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-24-2014, 10:29 AM
zenith2134's Avatar
zenith2134 zenith2134 is offline
VideoKarma Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NYC
Posts: 2,539
The HF video response rolloff that old_tv_nut mentioned, may be a reason why none of my vintage Trinitrons have a sharpness control? Since the sharpness control alters the high frequency of the video signal.
Just wondering.
Reply With Quote
Audiokarma
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:46 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©Copyright 2012 VideoKarma.org, All rights reserved.