Any updates on RACS rebuilding early CRTs?

[Electronic M]

I feel that the bubble tops were Philco going to back their roots. Back in the golden age of radio Philco as one of their more successful long lived marketing gimicks used to make sets with really bold eye catching Art Deco cabinets. However by the 50's their cabinet styling had become, comparatively, very plain and boring. It is my opinion that they were trying to return to their Pre-TV marketing tactics when they designed the bubble top.

[ChrisW6ATV]

Originally Posted by John Folsom

Whatever material you use to attempt to seal a CRT must have three propoerties:
1. It must survive the 600F oven temperatures during processing
2. It must have a thermal coefficient of expansion which matches very closely the glass/metal of the CRT
3. It must be impervious ie vacuum tight over a very long period of time.

I am curious whether Vac-Seal has been considered, or ruled out already. If it is strictly because of the heat issue, could it not be applied after the CRT has cooled? Specifically, since the weld leaks may have existed since the CRT was manufactured and they did not cause failure for years if not decades the first time, why is there a need for them to be sealed before the rebuild?

[old_tv_nut]

Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV

I am curious whether Vac-Seal has been considered, or ruled out already. If it is strictly because of the heat issue, could it not be applied after the CRT has cooled? Specifically, since the weld leaks may have existed since the CRT was manufactured and they did not cause failure for years if not decades the first time, why is there a need for them to be sealed before the rebuild?

I wondered the same thing, but I think it's iffy. The 21AXP22A that I paid Scotty to attempt went to enough air in 3 or 4 days to produce a bright blue glow from a Tesla coil test. Scotty applied vacseal to the neck/bell area just as a guess (he thought the most likely leak point was the metal pinch-off, which was replaced by the new all-glass gun). This is the tube that we did the helium test on at ETF this past spring, and determined that the leak was a "small" one at a tiny ding on the metal-metal weld. I'm now thinking that even small leaks might degrade the vacuum in the time needed to let the tube cool before the vac-seal could be applied and the getter could be fired, but your guess is as good as mine.

This does bring up the point that a tube could have lasted a long time and then fail quickly after rebuild - it appears that the stress of reheating can make a metal-metal leak much worse. I wonder how many more rejects RCA would have had if they went through a second heat cycle.

[ohohyodafarted]

Wayne,

My gut feeling is that VacSeal may possibly work. But prior to our experiments with the helium leak detector we always thought that the leaks were in the glass/metal jont. Now we realize the leaks are in the weld. So the next logical step is to see if weld leaks can be sealed with VAcSeal and if the product will hold up under the heat of the evacuation oven cycle. Unfortunately there is no oven to test the theory with since Hawkeye has closed it's doors.

[old_tv_nut]

Hmmm - I thought there was already some idea that VacSeal couldn't stand up to the oven, but if we're not sure, it should be tried when we can. Any possibility of info from the manufacturer?

[jr_tech]

Originally Posted by old_tv_nut

Hmmm - I thought there was already some idea that VacSeal couldn't stand up to the oven, but if we're not sure, it should be tried when we can. Any possibility of info from the manufacturer?

Info here says 400 C:

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/vac/vacleak.shtml

not affiliated,
jr

[Electronic M]

400 C = 752 F so it should be able to survive the 600 F rebuild ovens......

[ohohyodafarted]

I was pretty sure that VacSeal had a high temp rating. But we need to do real world experiments with an oven to see if sealing the weld leaks and then running the oven cycle will produce a leak free bulb. That needs to be done prior to doing any rebuilding efforts.

I have one possibility that we can still try here in michigan... I will write him an email and see if he can do some experiments for us. It's still a lot better than sending a dud to France for the test.

[ChrisW6ATV]

It is definitely good to know there may be more ways to accomplish the ultimate goal, rebuilding these CRTs with long-term reliability at a reasonable cost.

[jhalphen]

Hello Gentlemen,

I will piggy back on this popular thread to wish a Very Happy New Year! to all friends and acquaintances reunited by our common interest for vintage televisions and the endeavours to keep their original CRTs still operational in the 21st Century.

To all of you who hope/plan to have a CRT rebuilt in 2012, be assured that RACS is alive, well and kicking. After a very busy Nov/Dec season finishing another big partial order for the French railway, business will restart briskly in January after a well-earned Christmas season rest & factory close.

I will get on the horn with them next week and provide a full update here.

Friends John Folsom Jr, John Y. and Bob G. are once again opening exciting venues on the 15G rebuild project which may also pave the road to solving similar issues with 21 inch roundie color CRTs also using glass to metal interfaces.

The Color Wars documentary project for which we had the pleasure and honor of interviewing many of you at ETF 2011 is well on its way to entire completion and we hope a US TV Channel will be interested at MIP-DOC 2012, the international documentary trade show, Cannes, France, March 2012.

Let me finish this quick update by asking all to spare a moment in memory of friend and former VK member Eckhard Etzold from Germany who died last year one year day to day in this very night of the New Year.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

[ChrisW6ATV]

Happy New Year to you too, Jerome, and thank you for providing the updated information.

[jhalphen]

Good day Guys,

I had promised an update this week, sorry! it will be next week.

Very briefly talked to RACS 3 days ago, aged mother was in hospital with her two sons at here side, obviously not the sort of place for lenghthy CRT discussions.

For those of you that have tubes under rebuild, (Don) i had also asked for a recent status update.

The two brothers lost their father last year, so health is a very sensitive issue with them right now, hope that you will undrestand ...

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

[jhalphen]

Good day Gentlemen,

I have just come back from spending 2 days at the RACS factory in
southern France.

Day one was spent with UK collector Panrock (Steve O.) accompanied by
one of his customers. Day two was an all day Q & A with the two brothers
who own RACS.

VK USA and UK Vintage being public forums i will remain evasive on
certain private issues, but will be happy to answer personal inquiries
by PM.

Yes, the closing rumors are founded. The reasons are multiple, let me
briefly explain them here.

One) The demand is tapering off fast. After the huge french railway
order, 4000 CRTs over 4 years, the contract has been delivered. The
perspectives of another big order like this one are slim.

Two) supply of parts is getting downright impossible: for 1000 of the
SNCF CRTs, RACS had to locate 30 container's worth of raw glass shells
and screens found in Syria! and bring them to France. These were unused
leftovers of when Corning Glass ruled the roost and set up factories all
over the Middle East. For this batch alone, supplies came from 12
countries and the CRTs were built as brand-new from the raw spares.

Actually the french railway and some other customers would like them to
continue operations but where do you locate today raw inventory of this
volume?

Three) Just to break even, the factory needs to produce 1200 CRTs/year
over 10 months, counting in 1 month of summer holidays + 1 month of
assorted legal/religious holidays. That's 120 tubes/month.

Four) When you regun CRTs, there is a step where the process fundamentally differ: in the case of the fairly recent railway CRTs, NOS complete gun assemblies were in stock or purchaseable, allowing for very fast regunning in volume quantities. However for vintage/collector jobs the gun has to be rebuilt by hand. In some unlucky cases where the gun's cathode, filament and G1 grid are impossible to reach because other electrodes are in the way, or because of sheer fragility, the entire gun must be carefully disassembled then reconstructed. Believe it or not, this can up to two full days and only François does it.

Don't think that simple triode guns are fast & easy, this 2 day job was on a pre-war CRT used in a mirror set Telefunken. More recent color CRTs can be rebuilt a profit providing you have a NOS gun assembly. Any 1950s tri-color will require 3x hand rebuilding of all guns.

Which also explains BTW why no one gets rich in this business today, 4 to 6 days of skilled labor for one kinescope if billed at true cost, is already way over the price quoted for 15G rebuilds.

Five) François R. the CTO is attained by the "Scotty" (Hawkeye) factor. Now in his ealy 60s, he wants to paint, go fishing and enjoy life a bit inasmuch as you can while having to care for a severely invalid family member.

Six) The future.
Parts are being purchased to ensure continued rebuilding in spite of suppliers closing down production lines.

At the end of Q2 2012 RACS will assess it's financial situation and make decisions. They are a variety of options such as part time operation, reduction of workforce to a bare-bones crew, etc. François is a highly active fully trained engineer and actually enjoys the variety and challenges of collector tube rebuilds, finds it much less boring than a dull batch of 1000 19" or 21" 110° monochrome CRTS all of the same type.

The factory being in a floodable area, it happened 5 times over the last 35 years, the building and land have very low resale value. The machinery is worthless and will end up in the tip or sold at scrap metal prices. The huge inventory of chemicals and new parts is sellable.
Salvaging and moving some of the production gear to the US or UK is a possibility but aside from the cost/where/when questions it's an industrial project requiring a leader, dedication and a lot of energy.
François quoted it took one year to train a person to be a competent glass worker...

Interesting to complete Scotty's ETF donation is a 3x station screen coating line which Hawkeye did not have and all-electric ovens which offer much better control ability and less risk of contamination and fire than gas-heated ovens.

7) Conclusion
This is i believe a fair and transparent assessment of the current situation. I will endeavor to keep you all updated on a timely basis to avoid any bad surprise short notice of closure and give time for all to get wanted/needed jobs taken care of but do bear in mind that time is getting short and the Western World being in a recession does make operation of a small co. in a receding market increasingly difficult.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

[Phil Nelson]

Thanks for that detailed report, Jerome. It gives a clear explanation of why CRT rebuilding has been abandoned as a money-making operation. Lack of demand + lack of raw materials = zero profit.

120 tubes per month seems like more than the collector community would ever demand on an ongoing basis. There simply aren't that many TV collectors in the world, and not every CRT needs rebuilding.

Another barrier to entry is the required skill level. One year's apprenticeship in glassworking is not trivial.

Perhaps the ETF rebuilding project is the only hope long-term. As a non-profit organization, ETF would not have pressure to generate profits for employees or shareholders. The human factors and economics still matter, however. You need people (or at least one!) who can commit to a high level of training. Materials are not free and their cost will only go up, as existing stocks are depleted.

Unless new people are trained now, this art may be lost forever after the few remaining "master rebuilders" are gone. This is not something one can learn by watching a 3-minute Youtube video.

Phil Nelson

[miniman82]

Originally Posted by Phil Nelson

This is not something one can learn by watching a 3-minute Youtube video.

If that ain't the truth!

If things go according to my master plan, I will retire from active duty in around 8 years. If things are still in stasis as they are now, I will make every effort to land myself in Hilliard and devote my time to the rebuilding project. Being retired from the military I would only have to work part time to support myself, so I would be able to spend large amounts of time at the museum. So if no one else steps up in the meantime, by 2020 you will have your man. Hopefully Scotty is still available then to train me.