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  #61  
Old 01-08-2008, 01:59 PM
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  #62  
Old 01-10-2008, 02:02 AM
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I am sure the "coupon-eligible" boxes will not tune QAM signals. Apparently the government program is specific that the boxes will work for OTA and SD output only. Of course, you can get one of the Samsung or other boxes that tune QAM, but they will not be priced near US$75.
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  #63  
Old 01-10-2008, 03:16 AM
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I have been doing some digging about the coupon system's technical requirements for converter boxes for minimum features to qualify, optional features that will not disqualify and prohibited features which will disqualify, I hope this helps (I lifted a LOT of text from the report, which explains the obtuse language and some "posturing":

Act defines the term “digital-to-analog converter box” (a CECB)

Require = must have for coupon program
Permit = will NOT disqualify for coupon program, so it isn’t required..
Not permitted or prohibited = disqualify from coupon program


The Final Rule contains the requirement that the CECB receive all television channels 2-69.

The Final Rule will clarify that a CECB is required to receive, decode and display all channels, including multicast channels (2-1,5-3, etc) , broadcast by digital television station that can be displayed on an analog television receiver.

require a remote control that is supplied with batteries and uses standard technology and codes commonly used by television manufacturers as part of remote controls provided with television receivers. (at minimum to turn on and off tv)

requires that the CECB include an RF output and also requires that the CECB include composite outputs for those consumers who wish to continue to use the features provided by this technology. (yellow, white and red jacks) permit a S-video output .

require a power light indicating when the unit is turned on.

require manufacturers to include software which will display on the television receiver signal strength and permit the display of other operating parameters chosen by the manufacturer.

require that manufacturers supply an RF cable

NTIA's requirements for a CECB include two watt power consumption during the “sleep” mode, and does not include a specification for power consumption during the “on” mode.

-----------------------------------
permit a S-video output which provides a better standard definition picture using a simple and inexpensive hookup with one cable.

permit, but not require, manufacturers to include in their CECBs the circuitry and connectors associated with the so-called smart-antenna interface.

will permit, but not require, manufacturers to include matching transformers to connect 300-ohm ribbon leads to the required Type F connectors. The Final Rule will also permit manufacturers to provide connectors for 300-ohm inputs on the CECB.

In the Final Rule, NTIA permits that the converter box to pass through the analog signal from the antenna to the TV receiver.

NTIA will permit manufacturers to follow current industry practice regarding RF outputs for audio/video equipment which provides a mono RF output which is switchable between a station’s main channel audio and other associated audio services.

NTIA will also permit manufacturers to provide BTSC Multichannel Television Sound (stereo audio) in the RF output, Consumers will also have the option of receiving stereo audio through the converter box’s left/right audio outputs (RCA connectors).

permit the manufacturer to provide a programmable remote control which can accept the code of the consumer’s existing analog receiver and related video/audio equipment.

NTIA will permit, but not require, a CECB to display other electronic program information

permit manufacturers to supply additional cables, such as a cable with three RCA connectors, if they desire.

permit a CECB to receive and decode software pursuant to ATSC Standard A-97.(automatic software download and upgrade capability)

permits, but does not require, manufacturers to provide converter boxes that operate on battery power as well as those which use an external AC/DC power input.

permit the display of other operating parameters chosen by the manufacturer

------------------------------------------
prohibited: NTIA clarifies in the Final Rule that CECBs are prohibited from containing items such as display screens, recorders or storage devices that go beyond the simple task of converting a digital television signal to an analog signal for display on analog television receivers.

The Act, therefore, does not permit the output to another device such as a computer which might be required to capture streams of data included on the digital television transport stream.

not be permitted: NTIA specifies in the Final Rule these connectors ((DVI), (HDMI), (YPbPr), (VGA), USB IEEE-1394 (sometimes trademarked as iLink or Firewire), or IEEE-802.3 (Ethernet) or IEEE-802.11 (wireless)) will not be permitted in a CECB. Likewise,

my note: we can thank Funai ** for the loss of component video (YPbPr) jacks, I wouldn't call this "digital" information...but it IS better than s-video. There ARE a few (YPbPr) capable sets that do not have ATSC tuners. The probably do have S-video, but now Funai is on my $#!* list....


** "Funai then listed a series of connectors which it felt should not be permitted in the NTIA supported converter box. Funai requested that the following connectors be excluded from the converter box program:"

Here's a link to TECHNICAL APPENDIX 1 NTIA Coupon-Eligible Converter Box (CECB) Required Minimum Performance Specifications and Features
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  #64  
Old 01-10-2008, 04:24 AM
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Bottom of the range SD set top boxes typically sell for between AU$35 and AU$50 depending on what sale is on at the time. As there is no coupon program here there are no restrictions. Most of them included composite, S-video and either component or RGB outputs. I haven't seen any with internal RF modulators, the RF out connector on them is just a loop through.

At least your cheap boxes will decode a HD signal even if they will only output SD. Our cheap SD boxes only decode an SD signal leaving our stations to broadcast an SD signal, a HD signal and (until the cut off, I don't remember when it supposed to occur) a PAL analog signal.

If you want a converter, but can wait you should start finding them hitting the curbs by mid 2009. Like most bottom of the range electronics a lot of them will barely make it through their warranty period. I find them quite regularly. The most common faults are bad capacitors (no suprise) and damaged connectors (they weigh almost nothing, so it's easily done with tight fitting "monster" cables or even just RG6).
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  #65  
Old 01-10-2008, 12:05 PM
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I applied for two coupons. Reference #1583331.

Phil Nelson
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  #66  
Old 01-10-2008, 12:20 PM
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  #67  
Old 01-10-2008, 05:53 PM
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Pete Deksnis Pete Deksnis is offline
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Here's a Word table of the stats we've accumulated in this thread thus far: it is sorted on the third column, the coupon number returned when the application was successful.

It seems one and a half million coupons have been issued. The first half-million were issued in the first 24 hours, while it took about six days to issue the third half-million.

Pete
Attached Files
File Type: doc set top box coupon DATA BASE.doc (37.5 KB, 15 views)

Last edited by Pete Deksnis; 01-11-2008 at 07:19 AM. Reason: Update .doc file
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  #68  
Old 01-10-2008, 06:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andy View Post
It's interesting that the US government would allow a Japanese company to dictate the requirements for the converter boxes. Millions of NTSC TVs were made with component inputs. Also, the vast majority of HD sets made before the last 2 years have no ATSC tuner.
The Funai input was done during the clarification process as the act that was passed by congress and signed by the president was interpreted into a set of specifications.

Conceivably, one could go to court with the original act, and the specifications as established, and sue to try to get the component video (YPbPr) jacks excluded from the not permitted list on the grounds that they are NOT a digital signal nor convey digital information. (vga should also fall under that umbrella definition too)

The problem is that since the requirements form the blueprint for what the manufacturers have been working on, and since the coupon program is a temporary and limited phenonema, it's too late even if it's wrong.
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  #69  
Old 01-10-2008, 10:03 PM
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I do not see the omission of a component output as a problem in any way. First of all, it most definitely would have been SD only. Omitting it keeps the boxes simple to hook up. The people these boxes are intended for will probably not want do deal with component-video cables, nor do I want to see the stores have the opportunity to sell them "Monster"-type component cables with the boxes. (I can just see it now-"You are saving $40 with your coupon, and this cable is 'only' $30, and you really need it".)

Anyone who cares enough about the small improvement between S-video and component-video on a 480i analog CRT display should just skip all this cheap box stuff and upgrade to real HDTV anyway.

Remember, there are plenty of better boxes already available, though they are hard to find and you don't get a $40 discount.
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  #70  
Old 01-10-2008, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisW6ATV View Post
I do not see the omission of a component output as a problem in any way. First of all, it most definitely would have been SD only. Omitting it keeps the boxes simple to hook up. The people these boxes are intended for will probably not want do deal with component-video cables, nor do I want to see the stores have the opportunity to sell them "Monster"-type component cables with the boxes. (I can just see it now-"You are saving $40 with your coupon, and this cable is 'only' $30, and you really need it".)

Anyone who cares enough about the small improvement between S-video and component-video on a 480i analog CRT display should just skip all this cheap box stuff and upgrade to real HDTV anyway.

Remember, there are plenty of better boxes already available, though they are hard to find and you don't get a $40 discount.
I agree, and there is a provision in the act against manditory bundling, but I can imagine some pushy salesman....

Eventually those component video (CRT) sets will trickle down to us collectors (who will save them) as their former owners discard them. Of course that presupposes that the coupon boxes will survive beyond the warantee period. In fact that is the primary mode of acquisition for me, discarded or broke.

I am only aware of the sir-t451 and dtb-h260f from samsung, in fact I have service manuals for both. Which others are there? I have yet to find any with an RF (ch 3 or 4) output. I'm not yet at the point of purchasing an rf modulator for the ATSC tuners I have. I have been getting defective Panasonic dmr-ez27 dvd recorders and getting them working as tuners (for now) at a better price than defective ATSC tuners. In fact in a few years when peoples now working dvd recorder's lasers age out and they are useless otherwise......

So it looks like I will wait until the coupon converters come out with their included RF modulators for my tv's with only RF input.
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  #71  
Old 01-11-2008, 12:07 AM
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Reference Number: 1629248

Date Submitted: 01/10/2008

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  #72  
Old 01-11-2008, 10:38 AM
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Why does this remind me of Soviet breadlines....
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  #73  
Old 01-11-2008, 12:28 PM
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  #74  
Old 01-12-2008, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markthefixer View Post
I am only aware of the sir-t451 and dtb-h260f from samsung, in fact I have service manuals for both. Which others are there?
I don't know what models may be on the market now that have HD outputs; the Samsung DTB-H260F may be the only big-name one available now. Others include the model ZAT-600 under more than one brand name, Newegg has it for US$110, and the Coby DTV140 at Ecost among others.

There have been a couple dozen others in the past, including combo over-the-air and DirecTV tuners (they can all be used without a DirecTV subscription, except the DirecTV-brand ones). Ebay is a good source for them. The best are the LG-built ones: Zenith 420 and 520, Sony SAT-HD200 and 300, Hughes HTL-HD and several LG-brand versions including one DVR.
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  #75  
Old 01-12-2008, 12:49 AM
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Oh, none of them have RF outputs; you would need an add-on modulator. Also, most or all of them will not work in HD-output mode at the same time you use the SD output to feed a modulator.

Andy, the Echostar TR-40 wil sell for $39.99 beginning in March.
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