Vert hold/control ?
 

Restored the picture and sound, vertical is off on the bottom however. Adjusted to no avail, any thoughts? Control might be bad?

There is usually an electrolytic cap in the cathode of the vertical
output ( 13DR7 ?). Probably part of a can. Common fail for years
on many B&W and color sets. Start with that.
Looks like this set will come out nice ! Very brite & sharp pix.
They dont make em like that anymore !

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

BTW this is the second or third question thread relating to this TV you've posted. It is best to make one topic for the set and ask your questions there so all the info is in one place and we don't have to search to help you.

Something like this?

Yup.
On a similar age 17" Zenith its the triangle marked section of C2.
100 mfd 50V.
You can just hang another across it to test.
BTW do you have the schematic ?

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

EM: Actually this is his fourth.

Wind157: Especially since you are new to restoring these, you will have a lot of questions. If you keep all your posts of the same set in the same thread, we can all follow along easily to help you.

BTW, welcome to the forum. Lots of good guys here to help.

Also, if you fill in your profile with at least your location, you may find one or more of us may live nearby and be able to mentor you face-to-face.

.

Understood. Thanks for the help.

There are only two cans like that, one is labeled as C2on the schematic but with a circle of that makes a difference? I have no idea how to check if this is good or not let alone get it off

No need to pull old can.
Cans are one to four sections, each a separate cap.
All the negative leads go to the can part. Each cap is marked on the
bottom with a square, triangle, half moon & slash. You see that
stamped into the can also. And it matches the manual.
To test hang one in parallel thats of similar value in mfd & the same
or higher in voltage. Use clip leads to do it. Match + to + - to -
If that fixes it you can cut the wires off the bad section & put the
right value in.

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !

Bear in mind that if the original failed electrically leaky or shorted putting a new cap in parallel will have no effect on the symptoms.

What you said sounds simple put I feel I am over my head. If there are four sections inside this can then I see no method of accessing them

You don't need to open the can. The terminals to the silver can are on the CRT screen side of the chassis near the cardboard wrapped can. If they are hard to get at with the CRT installed then remove the CRT...To do that disconnect the side CRT HV lead, the CRT socket connector, and loosten the bolt on the yoke clamp then slide the CRT forward through the yoke...If it hangs up on the yoke back it up 2" and slip a card between the CRT and yoke...Push the CRT through the yoke primarily with the end of the bakelite CRT base to prevent ripping the base off if it hangs up in the yoke.

I haven't tried replacing a capacitor from the can yet but I wonder if it could be something else. I can adjust it to get a full picture on most of the screen but still solid black on the bottom 2ish inches. Could the picture tube just not be alligned some how? No matter how I change the vert/hort it still doesn't display anything on the bottom.

CRT/yoke alignment cannot do this. It's a case of very bad vertical non-linearity, almost surely due to a bad component and very likely a bad capacitor.

Thanks. The SAMS I found lists that a tube could be causing that issue or the rectifiers. I did order replacement tubes and the a capacitor to replace the on in the can. I assume the rectifiers are not likely the issue?

Almost always the capacitor. I would not just replace tubes. Most of them are probably fine. The new capacitor will be much smaller and can be mounted under the chassis. There likely other capacitors that will need to be changed as well.

Well that was a bust. Replaced the capacitor from that can, just made another component smoke badly and vert didnt work at all until I removed the new capacitor. Unless I'm reading the SAMS and attached the leads to the wrong part of the can.

:saywhat: Um , you took a picture of the smoke ? Really ?

:no: To save you future grief in your troubleshooting endeavors I'll make this short & sweet ;

:thmbsp: At the very first hint of smoke , reach for the power cord to yank it outta the wall rather than the camera !

I took a picture after I unplugged it so I could better identify which component was smoking.

Well go figure, so no matter how I connect the new capacitor there is smoke. I disconnected a cable running to the can assuming maybe I was over powering the smoking resistor but still the same thing. When I disconnected the new capacitor and ran a clip from the disconnected wire the tv works fine.
Bad solder? Or dumb luck?

Does that yellow wire connect to ground or pass thru the chassis to something on the other side in the third pic? Did you observe polarity with the new capacitor, if you connected it with reverse polarity it would pass enough current to smoke a resistor (the capacitor will also be damaged by powering it up with reverse polarity).

Sams is good, but has typos. Always best to learn to read the markings on the part and verify the actual wiring of the set.

The yellow wire connects to another yellow soldered to a tube then the the vert control.
The new capacitor didn't have an indication of polarity but connecting either way didn't make a difference, it smoked that resistor either way.
That said it worked fine after disconnecting the new capacitor and the image filled the screen where it did not before so I assume the yellow wire was my problem. Unless the power of Jesus flowed into the smoking resistor.
This morning the image still fills the screen even the bottom portion that it didn't not prior to trying the new cap except I can't adjust the picture in any more. I assume the smoking resistor is now my problem but at least I can see what that is and where it connects unlike the cap from the damn can.

There should be polarity on the new cap unless you bought unpolarized (but those are not common over 50V rated). If you connected the cap backward the first time then it probably shorted instantly on power up and correcting the polarity after that would not have helped...Once a cap shorts it is dead. You only get one chance to connect a lytic with the correct polarity before power up, before destroying your new replacement...Worse yet if you connect a lytic backwards it can explode and possibly cause injury...Measure twice cut once (ie make sure it is right before power up even if you have to ask us).

Where are you sourcing your caps? You should be going with a legitimate online vendor of NEW capacitors. Places like Mouser, Digikey, Allied, Justradios, Capacitor World, etc are where you want to buy from...Brick and mortar shops who's stocks can languish years to decades, and used parts places like surplus stores are bad sources...Electrolytic caps have a shelf life shorter than their rated life...Lytics need to have voltage applied to them regularly or they go bad...I've personally bought dead caps from Radio Shack and surplus places in the past, but I had a quality capacitor tester at my disposal to realize it and not use those parts.

Electronics are not magic, and while I can appreciate faith, it will not keep the original caps or bad quality replacements going for long.

The faith comment is sarcasm as the cap didn't resolve the issue yet that issue is resolved. Now I have to replace smoky resistor

Got a DMM and can do math? If so it won't hurt to check the original...If it is still within tolerance then you did not let out too much smoke. :D

Can you please post up a picture of that new cap you had installed?

Good point, i will check. I'm pretty sure it's done as the image does line up any more or at least didn't this morning.

+1.

Here it is

Pretty sure the end that + is nearest is the positive end.

That cap looks like it was made in the 70's. As a general rule, you always want to use new or under 3-year-old electrolytics caps made in this mileneia are failing from age already that part looks like almost as much of a gamble as the originals.

I don't know how familiar you are with sourcing caps, but here is some advice anyway under most parts house web sites there will be passive components listed capacitors will be under them, Lytics will probably be listed as aluminum electrolytic, papers will be replaced by film types, other capacitor types can mostly be ignored. Most originals are of an outdated standard value selection the values 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 have been replaced with 22, 33, 47, 56 respectively (the industry transition happened from the 1940's-70's). So order a 56uF to replace the 60. The original lytic caps had a -50% +100% tolerance so there is tremendous fudge factor in choosing a replacement, but the closest modern standard value is recommended. Voltage rating: is the maximum voltage that can appear across the terminals before the lytic will fail and explode(or vent it's guts in a messy mineral oil steam)...You can select a new cap with a higher voltage rating (higher voltage cost money, and is bigger and less easy to fit so it pays not to go too wild) and the set may even be more rugged because of it, but never select a lover voltage (your new cap will die quickly if you do). When buying from one of the parts houses with a search engine with lots of options I first check the "stocked" box so I'm not waiting 6 months for the factory to make more. I also will select all voltages at or above what I need for a lytic, then capacitances close to the value, then sort by price and look at brands I have confidence in (Panasonic, Nichicon, Illinois Capacitor, etc.) and sometimes compare things like lead length, size and mounting in making the final choice. Honestly once you've got the correct value and a good brand you can't go wrong electrically (though good choices after can make mounting easier). On paper caps go with 630V for everything unless there is a higher voltage part in the set (get the correct voltage for that)...Going lower for some parts to save money/room is not worth the effort for paper/film replacemet.
Here are a couple of links to play with:https://www.mouser.com/Passive-Compo...ors/_/N-75hqt/
https://www.mouser.com/Passive-Compo...ors/_/N-9x371/

You can craft an order of the parts you need off of the schematic parts list. New film caps are rated in pF and the body markings are 2 value digits and a multiplier. So a cap marked 153k is 15000pF=.015uF In sams most caps with a voltage rating are paper, and most that start with a "." or are 1000 (pF) or more are paper, the first few are lytic and you can confirm by looking for polarity on the schematic.

The white tubular caps in some of your chassis pictures and the bumblebee paper caps (they look like giant black resistors with color stripes) are as much time bombs as the original lytics.

Damn, I dumped a lot of info on you. Sorry if any is old hat, TMI, or confusing. If you have any questions just ask.

In a multiple-section electrolytic can capacitor, all the negative terminals of all the individual sections are connected to the outer can, and the positive terminals are the separate solder lugs that protrude through the bottom cardboard (not any twist lugs that connect the can to the chassis). When replacing one of these sections, you must remove any wire(s) that go(es) to the positive terminal of that section and connect them to the positive terminal of the replacement capacitor. The negative terminal of the replacement then has to be connected to the same place as the multi-section can (usually chassis ground).

Since you didn't realize the polarity is marked +, you had a 50/50 chance of getting it backward, and you should consider the replacement ruined and discard it.

On modern axial lead caps the negative lead will be connected to the outer metallic case, the positive lead will come out of some insulating material. Never assume the polarity markings on the outside wrapper are correct. I've seen several where the heat shrink cover was installed with the polarity reversed.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/946/40...73911058_b.jpg

That's good info, thanks.

The cap was from mouse and while I saw the plus sign the SAMS nor the can indicated where positive polarity went.

That said the cap still doesn't matter as the problem I was trying to fix with it no longer occurs.

I am assuming the yellow wire coming of the can and leading to the vertical control had a bad solder where it connects to one of the tubes.

I truley have no idea why the picture comes in good now. Smoking a resistor and it works now with keeping the old cap in place? Also the yellow wire running from that can to a tube then to the vertical control doesn't seem to do anything. I have a alligator clipped wire connecting the two yellow wires, after I cut it from the soldered point on the tube, and when I disconnected the clip the picture stayed on.
Not complaining but I don't see how anything I've done fixed the problem with the picture.

Has the vertical oscillator or vertical output tube yet been subbed with another one to eliminate that as a possible problem yet? You will still need to replace that smoked resistor and I would still replace the cap again. That resistor could be a plate bias or something vital for correct operation. This set will look really nice when you get the problem figured out. The jug is in excellent condition.

The tubes seem fine, I have some NOS I switched out and made no difference. I know I need to replace the resistor now. What I don't understand is why the part of the screen that was not displaying an image before now does so when with the same old capacitor. You can see in the attached that the picture on the left is not reaching the bottom of the screen and the picture on the right is filling the screen.
Those are pre/post smoking the resistor but the old cap is still in place. The only other change is the wire going from the Cap's can to a tube then to the vertical control but unhooking the alligator clipping it back to the tube makes no difference in picture quality.
So I guess I will replace the resistor but I am leaving the old capacitor in place as I am getting a full and good picture with it. Why I didn't before I do not know but I am now at the: if it's not broke, don't fix it, stage with the capacitor

Possible the smoked resistor shifted tube bias to counteract the problem. Even if a cap in any given stage is not causing an immediate problem you still need to change the lytics and all tubular caps .001uF and up...They will eventually short and kill something MUCH harder to source.

I assume you think replacing the resistor will cause the vertical linearity problem to start occuring again then?

It is possible but not guaranteed...Worry about having the parts meet spec before worrying about having it work perfectly...Otherwise, parts that have not been made in 50 years may be the next to smoke (due to bad caps, etc.)...

When I was a broke college student I used to try and get by replacing the minimum number of parts...So I can tell you from experience in most cases leave well enough alone (on old defective/risky parts ) = causing a worse failure in the near future.

Yeah my luck is typically that I break something when fixing it though.
I suppose I should take the meter and check the various caps. It's just replacing the caps in the can, I feel like I'm flying blind without know exactly where to connect the replacement cap. Wish I could just find a replacement can instead of three separate caps.