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-   -   Recommendation for a cheap cart that's good on 50's/60's equip (http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=269692)

Electronic M 10-25-2017 12:15 AM

Recommendation for a cheap cart that's good on 50's/60's equip
 
I've recently replaced caps on a couple of players that need cartridges and was wondering what would be the cheapest modern carts I can use in them with decent results.

One unit is a monophonic Library of Congress Talking book player (3 tube) and the other is a stereophonic Webcor changer (2 outputs + 1 12AX7/AU7 driver).

Both used an identical looking cartridge that turns over in it's mount. The Talking book player had 2 LP needles (speeds were 33.3,16,8.3 RPMs) and the Webcor had LP and 78 needles (normal 4 speed).

I'd guess both track with more force than the average HiFi units of the 70's and later.

DavGoodlin 10-25-2017 04:11 PM

I have a bunch of Varco CN-65, crystal mono carts. GE used them in portables among others that did not have the extra stage of amplification. they output 2.8 volts and track at 8g, pretty primitive.

Be concerned about playing a stereo record with a mono cart - Im sure these are the typical old type.

If you are in the ceramic output range of .3 volts , Electrovoice EV26 is my favorite stereo cart for all-around use flip over for 78's - in a 1947 Magnavox Berkeley (with a later Collaro Custom changer) the outputs are just tied together. I also have a 1960 Mag that uses one with its stereo amp, matched to its 12AX7 preamp stage.

Celt 10-25-2017 04:20 PM

Sonotone made some excellent sounding ceramic carts that tracked around 3 grams. 9T and 3T if my memory serves me right.

Electronic M 10-25-2017 09:04 PM

Some extensive googling has shown me that both units identical looking unlabeled carts are in fact Astatic "Power Point" (hey microsoft someone was using that phrase) cartridges.

The Webcor 1054 apparently needs a 0.15V stereo cartridge (based on the .15VAC label on the internal schematic at the pickup input).

I'm not sure about the cart in the Warwick built Talking Book "reproducer" (giggidy) model AE 4, but it seems to need about the same input based on some comparisons.

I tried plugging an 80's component TT into the amps of both players...The Webcor barely had any output, and the TaklingBook was better but not nearly as loud as it should be.

What sucks is that I have an RCA 118 200-9 stereo cart (it looks like the one below) that has the output to drive both amps quite well, but the blasted thing is too wide to fit either tone arm...I was able to hook clip leads between it and the amps and set the bare cart on a record on either player to check output (which was LOUD and clear).

http://i.imgur.com/ZSivwmnh.jpg#nr69W

Most of the carts posted about so far are out of production and expensive. There is no way I'm spending even close to $60 a pop for cartridges for a couple of $10 phonos.

There ought to be some cheap current production cart that can tolerate tracking on the heavy side, put out ~150mV, and not cost more than twice what the phono it's going into did.

maxhifi 10-25-2017 09:35 PM

I've used these in a couple players

https://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/cata...hi&Categories=

Just get the metal cantaliever version, and you're good to go.

Electronic M 10-25-2017 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxhifi (Post 3191277)
I've used these in a couple players

https://www.thevoiceofmusic.com/cata...hi&Categories=

Just get the metal cantaliever version, and you're good to go.

Now that looks like a solution! Thank you.:thmbsp:

maxhifi 10-25-2017 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic M (Post 3191279)
Now that looks like a solution! Thank you.:thmbsp:

You can get them even cheaper without the bracket, and they actually sound pretty good. I have one in a seeburg jukebox with a big 6L6 amp and it really pumps out the sound. Agree with your hesitancy to pay big bucks for old stuff which may not even work.

WISCOJIM 10-26-2017 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic M (Post 3191279)
Now that looks like a solution! Thank you.:thmbsp:

Tom, I got mine off of ebay > https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...ridge&_sacat=0

.

maxhifi 10-26-2017 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WISCOJIM (Post 3191297)

I think the eBay ones have a sapphire stylus, versus diamond at VM, and are made in China versus japan, plus lack the 1/2" Mounfinf bracket, but if that stuff doesn't matter hey it is nearly free! How do they sound? I've wanted to try the eBay ones for quick fix up projects.

Electronic M 10-26-2017 11:52 AM

The 1/2" bracket is a must....At least till I have one, then I might be able to fabricate copies and buy the cheap ones to mount in them.

It looks like diamond or sapphire needles are available. I've heard that saphire is supposed to be better at not skipping on worn records (the primary app for older players in my collection that track heavy) so low skip vs longer life seems like a reasonable trade off to me.

Celt 10-26-2017 12:20 PM

Sapphire will have a short lifespan though.

WISCOJIM 10-26-2017 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxhifi (Post 3191298)
I think the eBay ones have a sapphire stylus, versus diamond at VM, and are made in China versus japan, plus lack the 1/2" Mounfinf bracket, but if that stuff doesn't matter hey it is nearly free! How do they sound? I've wanted to try the eBay ones for quick fix up projects.

I haven't used any yet. I bought them to try in my RCA 45rpm players and the Ristaucrats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPOWaTEq-E

.

maxhifi 10-26-2017 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic M (Post 3191299)
The 1/2" bracket is a must....At least till I have one, then I might be able to fabricate copies and buy the cheap ones to mount in them.

It looks like diamond or sapphire needles are available. I've heard that saphire is supposed to be better at not skipping on worn records (the primary app for older players in my collection that track heavy) so low skip vs longer life seems like a reasonable trade off to me.

Saphire is junk, if isn't soft enough to be kinder to records, just enough to wear down fast and start damaging them. And the price difference is insignificant in the scheme of things.

The one you want to avoid is the cheap veraion with a plastic cantaliever, it doesn't sound good like the metal one does. I use my heavy tracking players with worn old records too, with good results.

Also notice there's two half inch mounts on the VM site, for shallow or deep headshells.

You can also glue the naked cartridge in place of an old flat metal crystal cartridge, this worked well in my slot load RCA 45 player.

One of these days I want to try this cartridge in a proper hi-fi turntable, just for fun, to see how good it can sound under the best possible conditions

Electronic M 10-26-2017 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WISCOJIM (Post 3191303)
I haven't used any yet. I bought them to try in my RCA 45rpm players and the Ristaucrats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPOWaTEq-E

.

That will work great once I get to work on my 45RPM changers (though at least one is missing it's cartridge). Most of the 45RPM units have rubber idler wheels that are totally shot (unlike the units I've been working on) which dampens motivation to get to them.

Still the carts and arms on what I'm working on are different, so I'm going to get at least one with the bracket.

mr_rye89 10-26-2017 11:13 PM

This may be a bit pricy but at least the stylii are cheap, but my favorite cart for mono is the GE VRII triple play. It has a turnover stylus for microgroove/78 much like the ceramic carts. I use mine on a Rek O Kut with a Japanese Gray 108 clone. This cart tracks at 4-6 grams for microgroove, 5+ for 78. output is somewhere around 10mv. Don't use it on stereo records as it has no vertical compliance.

You also might be able to grab a Pickering NP/AC/Stanton 400 for cheap. it specs similar to the GE but is stereo, and won't ruin stereo records.

DavGoodlin 10-29-2017 06:45 PM

Im learning some record-specific considerations here but it sounds like the best cart for old records is a magnetic, 78s are all mono so no issue there.

I had a Philco-branded V-M with a powerpoint. It is a self contained flip-over stylus-ceramic like a Astatic 710. It should work without adding any more preamp stages

maxhifi 10-29-2017 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_rye89 (Post 3191322)
This may be a bit pricy but at least the stylii are cheap, but my favorite cart for mono is the GE VRII triple play. It has a turnover stylus for microgroove/78 much like the ceramic carts. I use mine on a Rek O Kut with a Japanese Gray 108 clone. This cart tracks at 4-6 grams for microgroove, 5+ for 78. output is somewhere around 10mv. Don't use it on stereo records as it has no vertical compliance.

You also might be able to grab a Pickering NP/AC/Stanton 400 for cheap. it specs similar to the GE but is stereo, and won't ruin stereo records.

Sounds like an awesome setup, have you got a photo? Those tonearms are going up in value, too.

WISCOJIM 10-30-2017 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WISCOJIM (Post 3191303)
I haven't used any yet. I bought them to try in my RCA 45rpm players and the Ristaucrats.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mPOWaTEq-E

.

I installed one last night in my neighbors Ristaucrat. Sounds great, plenty of volume compared to the old Astatic he had in there. I mounted it with double-sided foam tape, making sure I got the positioning just right.

.

benman94 03-29-2018 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr_rye89 (Post 3191322)
This may be a bit pricy but at least the stylii are cheap, but my favorite cart for mono is the GE VRII triple play. It has a turnover stylus for microgroove/78 much like the ceramic carts. I use mine on a Rek O Kut with a Japanese Gray 108 clone. This cart tracks at 4-6 grams for microgroove, 5+ for 78. output is somewhere around 10mv. Don't use it on stereo records as it has no vertical compliance.

You also might be able to grab a Pickering NP/AC/Stanton 400 for cheap. it specs similar to the GE but is stereo, and won't ruin stereo records.

+1

I use the earlier GE RPX-050. It's similar to the VRII. Tracks a bit heavier at 6 to 8 grams, and has a more rolled off high end which makes rough 78s sound a bit better.

The Pickering NP/AC is officially out of production and people are snapping them up for spares, I know I have. They'll track anything and do a decent job masking surface noise on poorer records.

I'd give the overall nod to the GE carts for sound quality, but the Pickering is cheaper. I bought my last NP/AC for $15.

One cart I've always wanted to try is the 78 only RPX-010 from '47 or '48. Tracks heavy but those GEs have a way of burying the scratches and pops...

mr_rye89 04-08-2018 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxhifi (Post 3191387)
Sounds like an awesome setup, have you got a photo? Those tonearms are going up in value, too.

It's been a while, I'll take one tonight.

mr_rye89 04-08-2018 10:31 PM

The Three Armed Monster! The big tonearm is an Argonne AR-500 (Japanese clone of a Gray 108)

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/822/4...a49671e5_b.jpg

GE VRII Triple play Close up. Set up for mono LP and 78

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/874/3...ba53fc7b_b.jpg

Some mismatch Stanton/Pickering stuff for "nice" stereo records

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/807/4...b88249d1_b.jpg

And more Stanton and mystery Pickering Stylus (conical) for not so nice stereo records

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/868/4...a7a878de_b.jpg

And yes i need to find a proper rest for that :D

Electronic M 04-09-2018 12:15 PM

Also need a better way to "change" your tracking force.

maxhifi 04-09-2018 05:43 PM

Really nice stuff! Thanks for sharing

KentTeffeteller 06-24-2018 08:01 AM

Big issue with 1950's and 1960's phonos is there is no one cartridge which is suitable for all of them. There's a wide range from 3v 1 tube wonder types to nice light tracking VM changers with either Zenith Micro-Touch or Tetrad light tracking (2 Grams) medium output ceramics, and several points in between and mono and stereo to deal with. And several makes have specialist cartridge issues to deal with, and little or no alternatives which easily adapt. A wide range of makes and models, and several unique challenges with some. And this is just with portables, tabletop phonos, and consoles alone. And there's also very high end examples with magnetic cartridges installed, some of which now suffer unique challenges of their own on stylus supply or limited current options which work.

KentTeffeteller 12-07-2019 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DavGoodlin (Post 3191385)
Im learning some record-specific considerations here but it sounds like the best cart for old records is a magnetic, 78s are all mono so no issue there.

I had a Philco-branded V-M with a powerpoint. It is a self contained flip-over stylus-ceramic like a Astatic 710. It should work without adding any more preamp stages

I agree highly with the magnetic choice. Big issues are: Does the turntable have a 1/2" mount? Is there a 4 pole motor? Can the tonearm be operated, and the changer trip properly at 3 grams or below? Some changers, no problem. Many others lack options in this aspect, or easily fitted changers which do. My 1966 Fisher Electra VIII is fitted with a Dual 1010 changer, with a 4 pole motor, and a Pickering V 15 F cartridge. and I could even upgrade that changer to the lighter tracking Dual 1009, 1019, or the small chassis Dual 1200 family like the superb 1218. And my Fisher's preamplifier/tuner section has a magnetic phono stage with RIAA fitted (but cost nearly $800 new in 1966).

mr_rye89 12-14-2019 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Electronic M (Post 3198033)
Also need a better way to "change" your tracking force.

Pinewood Derby weights? I already had the change though :D I think these micro trak arms originally had self adhesive weights.'

The Grado woodie tonearm has a Grado Blue1 cart on it now and it's even better :thmbsp:

KentTeffeteller 12-17-2019 10:05 PM

They have the corners from a Picture frame kit for tracking weight adjustment.


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