There has been a lot said about the two emerging technologies, but the fact remains that the engineers that developed compatible color had no CAD programs to assist them, the technology in general was very rudimentry, no solid state devices and the like, color had no guidelines or map to help them on the road to success, but the results were simply spectacular. Color took a lot to get the picture just right, from the bright studio lights to the constant adjustments required by the early color equipment, due the temperature changes, not to mention the 300 ohm wiring in the home that was suseptable to noise and impedance changes due to weather, but If I had the chance I'd go back to that time in a second

I've often thought about stuff like this. Way back when, engineers had their own brains and a slide rule, and look what they managed to give us! Now, with the CAD programs you mention, and computers for research and number crunching, marketing data, polls, demographics, surveys, etc., it seems to me that designers (not just electronics, but all sorts of consumer goods, from light bulbs to locomotives) always try to take the easiest way out of a problem and always put saving every last cent in the forefront.

Restricting my thoughts to television, to me all HDTV is is television run by computer chips, an evolution rather than a revolution, and driven by cash flow, at that. If it had been driven instead by the arts and the sciences of electronics and television design, just imagine what we could have gotten instead, and perhaps ushered in a new golden era!

Tom

Yeah, I've always wondered what a TV built to "mil-spec" would cost, & how much better it would be than the tripe you buy at Wally-World.-Sandy G.

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I really marvel at the early color sets, and the men who made them. Every time I crank up my CTC-5 I think of the engineers who designed it. I envision them driving Chrysler 300s & living in nice homes in the suburbs...and being sharp as a tack.

I agree, we could be doing so much better these days than we are. Think of all the junk being made these days in China. Its not that the Chinese can't do better, its that they are making stuff to a price, not a level of quality. Thanks to this, you can't buy a "transistor" radio or can opener or toaster oven thats as good as it was 20-40 years ago. (when they were made in the US or Japan)

It certainly took some brainy guys to shove that color signal into the existing black and white, no doubt about it. Lot more restrictive to have to do it within those limits and not make people throw out their B&W tvs than to be able to start something from scratch like HDTV.
As I see it:
Color TV - got better and better as the sets got better while the signal basically remain unchanged.
HDTV - The cameras and the sets aren't really the problem, the broadcasters trying to skimp on bandwidth with subchannels is. Even a theoretical 'perfect' HDTV set, even if it was a massive picture tube the best that had ever been built, could not help degraded picture from guys trying to do 1080i and then not give it all the juice (bandwidth). If I don't see pixelization then HDTV is wonderful, stupendous, fantastic. When I see pixelization - I start to get ticked off. And pixelization has nothing to do with the sets, only the signal, even if it's coming in 5 by 5.
But - people were ticked off in the old days with picking up color on antennas with ghosting, static, interference, etc., also.

...people were ticked off in the old days with picking up color on antennas with ghosting, static, interference, etc., also.
How right you are frenchy:

We’ve gone from “...ghosting, static, interference, etc.” to HDTV’s equivalent bugs/visualizations.

These bugs/visualizations in my experience progress FROM small-area pixelization TO broad-area pixelization TO broad-area green pixelization TO broad-area green pixelization freezing for a few seconds TO a black screen. All this time the audio rotates through Dolby digital 5.1, Dolby surround matrix, and silence. It’s a mess.

But I’m still able to maintain program continuity by switching to reliable, old-fashioned, soon-to-be-toast, NTSC-channels to watch the rest of the program (in spite of interference from my neighbor’s computers, multipath distortion, and “ghosting, static, interference, etc.”).

Nevertheless, ATSC is a fabulous television system with brilliant engineering behind it.

As I’ve said before, this the same 6-MHz NTSC channel that supported 3-MHz bandwidth video amplifiers in the first color receivers now supports 30-MHz video amplifiers in ATSC receivers.

It reminds me of computer modem advances. In 1983 a Commodore 64 had a 300-baud modem. No grass grew under the feet of design engineers. Now my same 3-kHz phone line supports a ‘slow’ dialup 56k modem. Nearly twenty times the data rate in the same voice-grade line. Ten times the detail in the same 6-MHz channel. Talk about compression.

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at least they've established a digital platform, I ready today in the Wall Street journal, that the cuf-off date for all digital television has been pushed back to june 1st 2009. at that time you will have to puchase an adaptor box to watch programs on an analog television. Like Frenchy said even though the signal is digital, the program material may not be.

What happens when NTSC gets discontinued in 2009? Does that mean that none of the lower VHF channels will work?

Personally, I think most of the problem with over the air HDTV is that it has been relegated to UHF spectrum. UHF is pure crap for reception. If HDTV was coming over VHF channels, I think we would see a lot more reliable reception and a lot less pixelating.

I heard somewhere that the military is going to steal all of the VHF spectrum after they close them down for TV. Is that true? I'm not so much against the HDTV format but I think we will all regret losing the VHF spectrum.

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I think that back then when color first came out, they started all the engineering from the ground up. The engineers back then really smoked their brains from the designing of the 15GP22 to the chroma oscillator, they really came up with a sweet ass system years ago from the ground up.

With HDTV, the technology was modified. The same MPEG2 standard, the same dolby digital stream, the same high resolution CRTs and LCDs used in computer displays. Everything was there, it was just modified. ATSC transport stream had some heavy masth in it, but thats about it, but it was probably borrowed from DVB specs. Now adays, manufacturers are more concerned about pushing out tv's as fast as they can at large quantities, but cheap in price. I have NO respect for these manufacturers. NONE. It's a shame that engineers are told to come up with the cheapest design available that works. I can't stand this made in China crap.

Jonathan

Only 2 though 6 will not be used for digital TV and I believe the UHF above 53 is gone too. I'm still willing to bet 2009 gets pushed back.

When these HDTV (closeing down of real tv) deadlines began being circulated, it really chapped my bee-hind! When I have the time to sit in front of the tube (no plasma or lcd for me or my Dell) there still are a few shows out there I like to watch (beleive it or not) from the networks. I gave up cable years ago due to cost and signal quality in my area (the locals come in great around here from Va. Beach to the far reaches of the tidewater boonies). I've been through the direct tv and echostar phase. A friend of mine has a massive pioneer set with an atsc tuner. Its really nice and he's "proud as a peacock" over it. I won't tell him though that to me prime time in HD just would not justify the investment. Right now I'm hoarding VCR's & DVD's to ensure somewhat of a continued signal source for my vintage behemoth's (My latest one is a mid 60's vintage Curtis-Mathes CTC-15 clone with radio and phono that takes up 6' of wall space!). But on the brighter(HDTV) side I did score a deal on 46" wide screen :) Now if I could just score a deal on that atsc tuner.........................

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What happens when NTSC gets discontinued in 2009? Does that mean that none of the lower VHF channels will work?

Personally, I think most of the problem with over the air HDTV is that it has been relegated to UHF spectrum. UHF is pure crap for reception. If HDTV was coming over VHF channels, I think we would see a lot more reliable reception and a lot less pixelating.

I heard somewhere that the military is going to steal all of the VHF spectrum after they close them down for TV. Is that true? I'm not so much against the HDTV format but I think we will all regret losing the VHF spectrum.


As I understand it the FCC will sell off a portion of the frequency band, needed for cell and data transmissions. I'm not sure if all of them will be sold or not.

Personally, I think most of the problem with over the air HDTV is that it has been relegated to UHF spectrum. UHF is pure crap for reception. If HDTV was coming over VHF channels, I think we would see a lot more reliable reception and a lot less pixelating.

The pixelization I was talking about was from reduced bandwidth from the broadcaster because they aren't giving it enough bits per second needed to make 720p or 1080i look really good (rare pixelization, or none, instead of frequent.) It's not related to what channel it happens to be broadcast on or if it's vhf or uhf - it's the same signal. When you have reception problems with digital, you don't get pixelization... you get no picture whatsoever. Pixelization doesn't really describe it well. It's more like parts of the picture becomes degraded into discernible blocks, instead of smooth and seamless.
Anyway - when you see it, it sucks!

I think the VHF spectrum is going to other commercial uses like cell phones and pagers. Lets face it, broadcast TV is dead. Most people have cable, or satellite. Even I have to admit that it's a waste to use all the best broadcast spectrum on 5 versions of CSI when it could be used for something useful like high speed wireless internet.

I figure that once they get all those hi-bandwidth satellites up there and I can get all my network shows in HD from that instead of from my antenna - and as long as they don't starve the signal like a few broadcasters are doing, then I will get cable or sat. Hell maybe even all the cable shows will be in HD eventually. Or even really GOOD looking SD. THEN it's worth it to me to take down my antenna. Till then I ain't gonna pay them 30 bucks a month to watch their half-ass blocky-looking 'digital quality' satellite shows and then have to get my HD from my own antenna anyway. I've seen satellite quality on my relatives tv's and compared to OTA HD or even OTA SD, it just plain sucks. Most people have cable or satellite, and most people eat at Mcdonalds. When Mcdonalds starts serving much better stuff, I'll eat there. Till then I cook my own stuff (antenna)
(oh ok this was for illustration, I eat at Mc'ds once in a while! : )