View Full Version : Did I just ...... my 1950s Philco TV set?


Marzutra
06-10-2017, 10:06 PM
Greetings from the North... Looking for a bit of help though I think I totally screwed my project.
I am so used to restoring speakers and never tackled a vintage television.
My tech who rebuilt my monoblock amplifiers gave me a 1950s Philco Black and White television set.
Today I decided to start the restoration for it because I thought it would be mega for the ol-cave...
Well behind the front glass screen cover plate there was a bunch of dead spiders, insects and other garbage. I noticed that one could not get to the back of the glass unless one pulls the tube and innards out from behind.
Anyway, I removed the back cover exposing the inside. I removed the screws that anchors the electrical portion to the bottom of the case. I disconnected the speaker. I then disconnected the connections from the tube. One of the plugs removed without issue. I went to disconnect the connector that goes over the very back of the tube itself. As I disconnected the connector the tube broke off inside the connector.
I presume this ......ed the television itself.
I removed the piece and tried to glue it back into place. Seemed to work... Connected everything back up as it was after vacuuming all the crap out.
Hooked it all up and turned it on...
I noticed that I did get sound but no picture.
I looked in through the back and noticed all the tubes were lighting up as per normal and the back of the video-tube, where the break happened, seemed to be lighting up as well... Though from the front there was no picture whatsoever. The picture tube seemed to be dead.
I guess my question is... did I royally........the television set beyond repair or is there something of an easy fix/remedy?
Thank you in advance...

N2IXK
06-10-2017, 10:17 PM
It sounds like you just busted the plastic locating key on the base of the picture tube. Not really a big deal, and if the neck of the tube is glowing orange, you got the socket back on correctly and the vacuum wasn't released from the tube. The old plastic parts like that tube base tend to get brittle, and you really need to handle these parts with a lot of care.

Post some pics of what you have, along with a model number, and people will gladly help out. There are a LOT of things that will kill the picture on a TV besides a bad picture tube. A 50s set is generally going to need all the paper and electrolytic capacitors replaced simply due to age-related deterioration.

miniman82
06-10-2017, 10:44 PM
Well at least if it is boned, it should be a fairly common tube to locate. Looks like maybe a 21"?

jr_tech
06-10-2017, 11:20 PM
A picture from the back, showing components on the neck of the tube/high voltage connector would be helpful.

Are you sure that the set is a Philco?

jr

Marzutra
06-11-2017, 08:04 AM
I think I pooched it. I really do. When I looked at the broken part; it as the plastic cover that broke however, there seemed to be rotten/broken, rust colored glass pieces on the inside. I pushed it back into place with gorilla glue and then put the 'O-ring' back over the plastic end piece and back onto the 8, or so, prongs.
I turned it on and you can see the back of the tube glow orange.
No picture from the front.
I did also notice a loose cable/wires running to the top of the rear side of the television picture tube.
Have an open house today (house is on the market) but I will try to get some pics posted...

Marzutra
06-11-2017, 09:33 AM
Well, I just went down and tried to take pictures. I took pictures of the exact area that broke off - underneath - the connector and very back of the tube.
Another picture shows the connection to the top of the rear of the tube itself. The next pictures show the glowing around the connector/portion that broke off when turned on. Sorry for the poor quality.... I tried with and without flash.
Took a diagonal measurement of the tube which seems to be larger than 15" and smaller than 16"....
I also took a picture of the tube schematic and another of the back plate. Perhaps it might offer more information.
Hope it helps...
Thanks in advance..

N2IXK
06-11-2017, 10:52 AM
Still not clear what exactly broke. The orange glow inside the tube neck is PERFECTLY NORMAL. This is the heater that warms up the cathode. The fact that it is present shows that at least the 2 heater leads are making contact inside the socket, and the CRT is still under vacuum (you didn't break the glass seal). The locating key (at least the part we can see) looks intact. this is the plastic piece on the tube base between the pins. It serves to make sure that the socket is installed in the proper orientation. The fact that the heater is lit shows that the socket is indeed oriented correctly.

The larger diameter portion of the tube base assembly with the colored wires going into the side of it is the CRT socket. If this is what got broken, it can be replaced easily enough with one salvaged from a junked set.

jr_tech
06-11-2017, 01:04 PM
Couple of quick comments:

1. The CRT is still under vacuum and appears to be connected correctly since the heaters are glowing.

2. The "rust colored glass pieces" that you found were pieces of the base cap cement used to glue the base cap to the CRT.

3. If you had actually broken the tip seal off of the CRT (under the locater key) you would have heard the sound of in rushing air, filling the vacuum of the CRT.

4. Is the other end of the high voltage wire (the large white wire seen in the picture of the tube layout chart) properly plugged into the CRT?

5. Logo on the back (on serial number tag) looks to me like Phillips, not Philco... could you get a close-up pix?

https://www.google.com/search?q=phillips+logo&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

jr

stromberg6
06-11-2017, 02:57 PM
I noticed the use of "scru-lox" head screws. Could this TV be a Canadian model? Did a Canadian Admiral back in the 70s, and it had those bleepin' screws. I didn't have a driver at the time, and had lots of "fun" with them LOL.

Notimetolooz
06-11-2017, 07:26 PM
Its a shame you didn't take pictures before you glued things back together. At the risk of incurring more damage, could you try to remove the CRT socket connector from the CRT? The round "button" in the center is part of the CRT. Push on this button with your thumb, so it doesn't move, while you pull the donut shaped CRT socket off. That TV might not be as old as you think. I'll try to post a picture, if no one else does, of what the socket and tube base might look like apart.

mrjukebox160
06-11-2017, 08:00 PM
The broken wire looks to be the tuner RF wire going to chassis. Nothing to do with the CRT.

Notimetolooz
06-11-2017, 08:02 PM
Here are a couple of different CRT bases.
The first one is from a 1954 TV, the second which includes the socket is from a 1962 set.

The anode wire that some have asked about should be found on the side of the CRT "funnel", about half way between the front screen and the large metal 'donut' structure called the yoke.

Phil Nelson
06-11-2017, 08:12 PM
5. Logo on the back (on serial number tag) looks to me like Phillips, not PhilcoThe badge on the cabinet front kinda resembles the Phillips badges on a couple of my old radios.

https://www.google.com/search?q=philips+radio+badge&client=safari&hl=en-us&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj8joCmgbfUAhVOzGMKHQFpD8oQsAQIJA&biw=1422&bih=689

As noted earlier, any TV of that vintage will likely need to have paper and electrolytic capacitors replaced before it will play reliably and safely. That means replacing a few dozen parts -- rather labor intensive.

This page lists a bunch of TV restoration articles; if you skim a couple, you'll get an idea what's generally required to get this sort of TV working right:

https://antiqueradio.org/televisions.htm

If you haven't restored any tube electronics before, I'd recommend practicing on a cheap tube radio from a flea market or thrift store before tackling a television, which is more complex.

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Marzutra
06-11-2017, 08:49 PM
Couple of quick comments:

1. The CRT is still under vacuum and appears to be connected correctly since the heaters are glowing.

2. The "rust colored glass pieces" that you found were pieces of the base cap cement used to glue the base cap to the CRT.

3. If you had actually broken the tip seal off of the CRT (under the locater key) you would have heard the sound of in rushing air, filling the vacuum of the CRT.

4. Is the other end of the high voltage wire (the large white wire seen in the picture of the tube layout chart) properly plugged into the CRT?

5. Logo on the back (on serial number tag) looks to me like Phillips, not Philco... could you get a close-up pix?

https://www.google.com/search?q=phillips+logo&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari

jr
Thanks jr. Greatly appreciated. I plugged everything back the way it was before I started 'cleaning'. I assume the large white wire is plugged in. I do not remember touching it at all but will take a look. I might just take it to a tech to service because I don't want to electrocute myself...LOL
Oh, it is a Phillips and not Philco.
The logo looks like the one I found on the net.
I was told this set was from the '50s though not sure..

@Notimetolooz - the portion that broke is portion outlined on your first picture where the narrow top joins to the wide portion before it reaches to where the prongs are. Basically that little "nub" part.
On my picture it is the small cylinder portion that slides through the "O-ring" thing. That is the portion that broke off right under the ring - which covers the break.....
Thanks Phil,
Greatly appreciated. I'll check those links out. I think I might continue with the restoration of the case and then take it to someone who knows this stuff to do a 'servicing' to it. I was under the impression that it worked 100% when I got it - which it probably did - until I decided to clean all the crap out of it. I'll open it up again to see if everything is connected ok...

Thanks N2IXK. Greatly appreciated. You are right. I just held this portion of the tube to keep it stable while I reached in to pull it back off the four bolts holding it in place.... and 'crack'.... Very brittle...
Thanks... I'll keep posting with updates.

I didn't even see a broken wire Mr. Jukebox..lol Woops...

Oh, I uploaded a closer picture of the back with the model number. Yes... Definitely Phillips and not Philco...

Notimetolooz
06-11-2017, 09:06 PM
Marzutra, are you sure you have to disconnect the CRT? In many older sets the CRT is mounted to the metal chassis and everything is removable in one piece.
From the looks of you pictures, I think your CRT has the type of base shown in my second picture. That is the newer design. The plastic piece can come loose without damaging the tube pin connection, so you may not have a serious problem.
EDIT: Just read what you posted while I did. Never mind this part.
Standard warning, be very careful around the CRT neck (where the base and yoke are). There is 14.5 lbs per square inch atmospheric pressure on the glass. That's about a ton per square foot. The tube could implode if the glass breaks and you could get a face full of glass shards! A pair of goggles would be a good idea. The front glass on the cabinet is called the safety glass for a reason. The CRT glass is thicker towards the front of the CRT, but that makes it heavier than you might think.
TVs are more dangerous to work on than radios because of the CRT and the higher voltages used. I'm not sure getting into this is a good idea if you are also moving at the same time.

Marzutra
06-11-2017, 09:13 PM
Marzutra, are you sure you have to disconnect the CRT? In many older sets the CRT is mounted to the metal chassis and everything is removable in one piece.
From the looks of you pictures, I think your CRT has the type of base shown in my second picture. That is the newer design. The plastic piece can come loose without damaging the tube pin connection, so you may not have a serious problem.
Standard warning, be very careful around the CRT neck (where the base and yoke are). There is 14.5 lbs per square inch atmospheric pressure on the glass. That's about a ton per square foot. The tube could implode if the glass breaks and you could get a face full of glass shards! A pair of goggles would be a good idea. The front glass on the cabinet is called the safety glass for a reason. The CRT glass is thicker towards the front of the CRT, but that makes it heavier than you might think.
TVs are more dangerous to work on than radios because of the CRT and the higher voltages used. I'm not sure getting into this is a good idea if you are also moving at the same time.
Thanks. I believe you are right. I will probably just clean up and restore the outside of the box and wait for someone - a real tech - to give it the goods.
If you were to guess, what period would you date this model Phillips? I've no information on it. Just thought it would be cool to have an old Television next to my '37 deForest Crosley floor radio and my '70s stereo...lol
I appreciate all the help and info guys. I am hoping it is something minor. I see all the tubes lighting up. The rear of the picture tube (though the front is 'dead') and sound coming through... My fingers are crossed...

DavGoodlin
06-12-2017, 10:53 AM
That picture tube base is common to 110-degree deflection CRT's - probably no older than 1958.

get a good shot of that tube chart, most of us who think we have seen it all, US wise, can appreciate a set we never saw before:)

bandersen
06-12-2017, 12:06 PM
Tube chart shows CRT is a 17BZP4.

TUNG-SOL tentative data sheet has a date of April, 1957
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/1/17BZP4.pdf

Electronic M
06-12-2017, 02:07 PM
IIRC I've got a spare 17BZP4 in my stocks.

jr_tech
06-12-2017, 02:28 PM
So what's the history of the set? Phillips sets are uncommon in the US... did the set perhaps come from Canada?

jr

fixmeplease
06-12-2017, 04:41 PM
Theres a date in ink on the chassis right near the tube chart, but I cant see for sure what the last number is but think its 1958.

Marzutra
06-12-2017, 09:47 PM
That picture tube base is common to 110-degree deflection CRT's - probably no older than 1958.
get a good shot of that tube chart, most of us who think we have seen it all, US wise, can appreciate a set we never saw before:)
I will try to take a picture of it tomorrow Dav. I was told it was from the 50s.

"Tube chart shows CRT is a 17BZP4.

TUNG-SOL tentative data sheet has a date of April, 1957
https://frank.pocnet.net/sheets/127/1/17BZP4.pdf"
Thanks banderson. Greatly appreciated. I will print this off. The more info the better. There's a TV repair guy here but I think he's more into 'easy' fixes. A very disgruntled gent that hates life itself...lol

"IIRC I've got a spare 17BZP4 in my stocks."
Thanks Electronic. I'm guessing you're located in the States. The costs of shipping one of them to Canada would probably be killer.... We lose over 30% right off the bat thanks to our horrible dollar... Good God!!!

"So what's the history of the set? Phillips sets are uncommon in the US... did the set perhaps come from Canada?"
Hey Jr. I'm guessing that you're 100% accurate. My tech is with the Canadian Armed Forces. He services the planes, helicopters, tanks, radar whatever electronic needs they have. He is an absolute wizard. He did a major rebuild/restoration of my Harman Kardon Citation 16M monoblock amps. He sent me pictures of his process and there was this 50s tv sitting next to them against the wall. I made a comment that I thought those ol-things were stellar. He said "you can have it if you want..." I jumped on it. He was getting into old tvs as a hobby but apparently must have taken up too much space in his basement shop.
I presume it is from Canada though he travels and spends time wherever the CAF are stationed.
That is all I know about the history of this specific set.

I need to clean up the knobs. There is one that is damaged but I think I can 'fix' it. I was thinking I might fill it with wood filler. Sand it down to match the circular portion that broke off. Stain it to match the plastic and it should be ok. I will source a piece of walnut veneer for the top. The set itself is made out of that really cheap/shitty press board with the fake wood paper on top. The sides are 9/10 but the top is probably a 4/10.

I hope I can get it going. I'd like to source a 'matching' stand at some point. These old things are fabulous in my opinion. Something deserving to be kept around...imho.

I'm a newbee at this sort of thing..... speakers and audio gear (I'm on AK) is one thing but this stuff is totally foreign... lol

Jon A.
06-12-2017, 10:47 PM
I noticed the use of "scru-lox" head screws. Could this TV be a Canadian model? Did a Canadian Admiral back in the 70s, and it had those bleepin' screws. I didn't have a driver at the time, and had lots of "fun" with them LOL.
Huh? Those are very common here and I had never heard them called that before, just Robertson or "square head". I had to Google it to find out what they are. I find them to be among the easiest screws to work with.


"IIRC I've got a spare 17BZP4 in my stocks."
Thanks Electronic. I'm guessing you're located in the States. The costs of shipping one of them to Canada would probably be killer.... We lose over 30% right off the bat thanks to our horrible dollar... Good God!!!
Well, not quite, but it seems that way doesn't it? I just checked, things have changed in our favor a TINY bit, but because of the crazy exchange rate and outrageous shipping costs through eBay I rarely get anything from the US anymore. Good thing I got most of my equipment a while ago. Fortunately shipping from Mouser is still reasonable.

Marzutra
06-13-2017, 07:02 AM
Well, not quite, but it seems that way doesn't it? I just checked, things have changed in our favor a TINY bit, but because of the crazy exchange rate and outrageous shipping costs through eBay I rarely get anything from the US anymore. Good thing I got most of my equipment a while ago. Fortunately shipping from Mouser is still reasonable.

It certainly does. No question, especially if you're living in rural NS. Shipping anything here is pretty expensive. Wanted to purchase a pair of Epi M400 speakers from BC but the shipping kills the deal. Was thinking of posting "anyone heading east?" advert..LOL
My tech used Mouser for a number of parts when he restored my monos. I believe Digi-key was another company he uses.
I am waiting for my tech to get back from his vacation in Germany. Perhaps he'll look at and give a service to this ol-Phillips...

Jon A.
06-13-2017, 08:05 AM
Alrightie, never mind.

WISCOJIM
06-13-2017, 09:51 AM
"So what's the history of the set? Phillips sets are uncommon in the US... did the set perhaps come from Canada?"
Hey Jr. I'm guessing that you're 100% accurate. Pretty easy to see from your earlier picture of the serial number tag that the set is from Canada.

.

Notimetolooz
06-13-2017, 12:31 PM
So that set is probably from 1958. Another clue would have been that it uses Printed Circuit Boards (PCB), they stared appearing around that time. Early PCB weren't very good. The copper traces tend to come loose when re-soldering/replacing parts. Your restorer guy may know about this. Its probably safer to clip the leads of the old components and solder the new ones to the stubs. Another problem was that the tubes and other heat producing parts weren't spaced away from the board material and it scorches after a while.

Marzutra
06-13-2017, 02:10 PM
Well, I'm in Halifax (nothing to be proud of I know) and am willing to lend a hand. I'm the kind who will keep going until a problem is licked and am only satisfied with my work when I've given it my all.
Ah, nice. I used to use Hamblen's for my audio gear however after taking a Pioneer SA9900 to them for servicing - it went back 3 times because the problem was never repaired -but they told me they wouldn't work on it any more. Nice guys though.
Took this same piece to Peak Audio and was told 5-6 different stories (lies) from the sales guy that was different from their tech, who seemed to be pretty good however the same 9900 ended up being totally mangled. Had to sell this, formerly mint piece, for parts and or repair because the lost the top cover plate...(and it was still crap...) Here in Truro, there's one elderly gent who runs- ran - a tv repair shop but I think he's retired now and he's a very disgruntled person...for right or wrong..lol

"So that set is probably from 1958. Another clue would have been that it uses Printed Circuit Boards (PCB), they stared appearing around that time. Early PCB weren't very good. The copper traces tend to come loose when re-soldering/replacing parts. Your restorer guy may know about this. Its probably safer to clip the leads of the old components and solder the new ones to the stubs. Another problem was that the tubes and other heat producing parts weren't spaced away from the board material and it scorches after a while."
Very interesting. Don't know if he does. I'll mention it to him. I did notice a piece was very hot. Don't know what the piece is but it was hot...lol I know absolutely nothing about electronics...

Sandy G
06-13-2017, 03:27 PM
CRTs from this era aren't quite a "Roundie", but they aren't really all THAT rectangular, either. its all a ploy to try to get folks to buy ANOTHER TV, since sales of TVs had kinda leveled off. The "Squared off" sets were more modern looking, they told us. Aside from selling a few tiny CRT sets, the next big thing would be color TV taking off, in the mid-late sixties.

Marzutra
06-14-2017, 06:44 AM
CRTs from this era aren't quite a "Roundie", but they aren't really all THAT rectangular, either. its all a ploy to try to get folks to buy ANOTHER TV, since sales of TVs had kinda leveled off. The "Squared off" sets were more modern looking, they told us. Aside from selling a few tiny CRT sets, the next big thing would be color TV taking off, in the mid-late sixties.

Didn't know that. I still do not own a flat screen.. Perhaps the only person in Canada that doesn't own a cell phone either...lol

I think I'll wait until I find some extra cash and someone to restore/service this thing properly. I'll probably really bugger it - or myself - up...lol

Jon A.
06-14-2017, 09:40 AM
Didn't know that. I still do not own a flat screen.. Perhaps the only person in Canada that doesn't own a cell phone either...lol

Wrong, I don't have a cell phone either and that's by choice. I don't want a flat screen TV either. I watch a 1976 Electrohome console almost every day.

Marzutra
06-14-2017, 01:44 PM
Wrong, I don't have a cell phone either and that's by choice. I don't want a flat screen TV either. I watch a 1976 Electrohome console almost every day.

Now that's grand! :thmbsp: I was going to "like" your post but apparently there's no option for that here...
congrats from the second slowest town in Canada - next to New Glasgow...LOL

Marzutra
06-28-2017, 06:40 PM
Well my tech stopped bye over the weekend on his way to visit a friend. He was here to tune in the bias on my amplifiers however took a peek at the ol-television set. He looked at the broken piece, and you all were right, it was just the black plastic cover over the end of the tube. He saw the tube was lighting up from behind. He thinks it must be something aside from the tube.
He'll be taking a look at it next month when he gets things settle from vacation...
Finger's crossed.

Tubejunke
07-19-2017, 11:18 PM
Wrong, I don't have a cell phone either and that's by choice. I don't want a flat screen TV either. I watch a 1976 Electrohome console almost every day.


Hey, maybe we could start some sort of a peer group of like minded folks. We could help people understand that our brain isn't a device that we whip out of our pocket when/if we have a though or a question.:thmbsp: We could challenge young adults who have NEVER known a world without cell and "smart" phones to go without. Of course this would be similar to drug withdraw, so there would have to be a support structure like a 24hr hotline for those frozen in confusion and withdraw.

It could start a trend of sorts; maybe even a reality TV show like Naked and Afraid! I've been thinking for years that the smarter and safer we get through technology, the dumber many people seem, and the safe world we gained is way more dangerous than what came before everything being safe. :scratch2::no:

decojoe67
07-21-2017, 07:17 PM
Wrong, I don't have a cell phone either and that's by choice. I don't want a flat screen TV either. I watch a 1976 Electrohome console almost every day.
Count me in too as another member who doesn't have a cellphone. I hate them and am sick of people looking down at or talking into those sheets of plastic anywhere and everywhere you go. "In an emergency it's invaluable" - well, I'm 50 and have never once desperately needed one in an emergency. I'm bilked enough money to have a home phone, TV, and Net service!

madlabs
07-22-2017, 10:13 AM
I have a cell phone as I live off grid so it's cell phone or no phone. Don't get what you hate, some folks are glued to the TV all day and some watch a bit and get on with their lives. Me, I love mine. So useful. Working on a concrete form yesterday, whipped out my phone and used my carpentry app to work out the diagonal length (to square it up) and the volume of concrete I need. It's like everything else, moderation.

decojoe67
07-22-2017, 12:54 PM
I have a cell phone as I live off grid so it's cell phone or no phone. Don't get what you hate, some folks are glued to the TV all day and some watch a bit and get on with their lives. Me, I love mine. So useful. Working on a concrete form yesterday, whipped out my phone and used my carpentry app to work out the diagonal length (to square it up) and the volume of concrete I need. It's like everything else, moderation.
"Hate" is a harsh word. Of course it is something that can be useful. It's just that many people are obsessed with it. At get-togethers people ogle it at the dinner table with phones "chiming" every 10 minutes, at work while they're supposed to be concentrating, in their cars at lights holding up traffic, and rambling on them at stores, restaurants, trains, gyms, etc. What did everyone do years ago if we desperately need them now? Well, that's my rant on it, I wont highjack the thread anymore.

Electronic M
07-22-2017, 03:42 PM
I'm currently still on a dumb cellphone. I want a smart phone though...Being able to google useful info when I'm out and about, entertain my self when out and crazy bored (and I do get crazy when I'm bored enough), and check prices of antique stuff I want to buy is a god send...Mom, who I've tried to talk into upgrading all our phones to smart phones accomplished this poorly by calling dad at his work and having him look this stuff for her on his computer. :rolleyes:

Once I'm done saving up for/buying a good SUV a smart phone is next/even on the list with my hobby stuff.

It is easy enough to mock members of my generation over obsessed with their phones...A year or two back me and my friends were catching a bite before bowling and watched this couple our age at another table on a date spending the whole time on their phones likely talking to each-other...We shook our heads and joked about them a good bit. "If their texting goes well enough, perhaps they will park somewhere remote and sext each other later." :D