View Full Version : Ts18 verticle problem


timmy
03-06-2017, 04:36 PM
Ok this ts18 I recapped and upon trying for the first time the hold pot was maxed to keep from rolling then after Alittle while the roll started and now has got so bad that the pic can hardly be seen, just massive lines and jumping. So I changed all Micas in the vert and horiz no change. So I already went over resistors in the beginning and changed 2 resistors and there are no more resistors out of tolerance still no change. Checked the vert size and hold pot resistance is good . I'm sure I'm missing something here if anyone has an idea what's going on with this please I'm all eyes. The crt is bright so the hv is ok and also subbed tubes in the vert and horiz nothing works. What I did do is I was able to get the roll to stop and almost a full screen by placing a .01 cap from ground to pin 4 of the 6sl7 at the 100k resistor which is good also. So I don't know maybe a ground leak to something in the vert but where. The horiz is perfect. The lines look like retrace lines without the mod. I'm lost here. Is it possible for a resistor to check good out of circuit but in the circuit change drastic value.

compucat
03-06-2017, 08:03 PM
Did you replace the high voltage caps with tubulars? When I did my TS-18 chassis I used ceramic discs and they did not work well in the vertical. I would check every resistor and cap in the vertical oscillator and output circuits. Also check for wiring errors. Despite being careful, it does happen. These chassis perform well when restored.

timmy
03-06-2017, 08:40 PM
Did you replace the high voltage caps with tubulars? When I did my TS-18 chassis I used ceramic discs and they did not work well in the vertical. I would check every resistor and cap in the vertical oscillator and output circuits. Also check for wiring errors. Despite being careful, it does happen. These chassis perform well when restored.

Well I am using ceramic disc for now and I know they work since upon getting done recapping it had a great pic and clear. I already checked all resistors more then once and replaced a few but that's it. I have several others like this, 2 ts18 s and ts4ds and they work great but this one is giving me a run for sure.its like something failed shortly after running it but can't find it. I have a cap checker and the discs I'm using for now are fine.

timmy
03-07-2017, 12:25 PM
There are 2 10meg resistors that I changed at the 6sl7 and put in 2 1meg resistors mistakenly , and some how I have verticle hold close to maxed on one end but the vert size is almost maxed to fill the most of the screen. So I'm wondering if because I'm using ceramic disc caps instead of tubular could this be messing up the verticle and size because there is not enough capacity. And the wrong resistors I put in maybe they accidentally made the wrong caps work. Because these sets are known to work with disc caps mine seems to be the exception to other sets like this one.

Electronic M
03-07-2017, 02:40 PM
Put the right resistors in, check and if it is still not right loose the ceramic caps, then check back.

timmy
03-07-2017, 03:26 PM
Put the right resistors in, check and if it is still not right loose the ceramic caps, then check back.
I had the right resistors in as they were at 10.55 meg so I mistook the colors on the resistors and changed them but I put in 1 meg so putting them back won't solve it. I'm just not sure if these caps alone would do this, although I have one tubular on one side of the verticle and ceramic on the other side. The horiz has both exact same ceramics in but that's fine so maybe the mix between the tubular and disc maybe throwing it off. I didn't order the right caps yet figuring I could use these to get the set running.

bandersen
03-07-2017, 03:40 PM
Horizontal runs at a much higher frequency so you can usually get by with ceramics. Ceramic will definitely give you problems in the vertical unless you use a much larger value then specified.

Tom used 0.01 uF caps with good results.

You can read all about it here: http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=260749

timmy
03-07-2017, 03:48 PM
Horizontal runs at a much higher frequency so you can usually get by with ceramics. Ceramic will definitely give you problems in the vertical unless you use a much larger value then specified.

Tom used 0.01 uF caps with good results.

You can read all about it here: http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=260749

The 0.01 would be the same as .01 ?

bandersen
03-07-2017, 03:59 PM
Yes

timmy
03-08-2017, 01:36 PM
well I need some direction here with this ts18 verticle problem . After changing all Micas in the vert section and horiz and recapped all else the weird thing I have going on here is not only can I not find any bad resistors anywhere and the b+ and b++ is right on the money but there is lines jumping all over and really can't see any pic but if I take a .01 cap and parallel it to the .004 at the 6sl7 I have vert hold and almost a full screen except for some linearity loss and a great picture. One end of the .004 is ground .

jr_tech
03-08-2017, 03:57 PM
Have you changed the 2 resistors in the vertical back to the correct value (10meg) ?

jr

timmy
03-08-2017, 04:29 PM
Have you changed the 2 resistors in the vertical back to the correct value (10meg) ?

jr

Yes put the 2 10 meg resistors back. I don't have a hv probe it stopped working so could it be low hv but yet still have a bright screen.

broadcaster
03-08-2017, 05:47 PM
That .004 cap has to be exactly .004 mfd. Try another .004 cap

timmy
03-08-2017, 06:30 PM
That .004 cap has to be exactly .004 mfd. Try another .004 cap

Well don't have another, the one I have is new but is there another that may be close enough to rule anything else out.

timmy
03-09-2017, 08:10 AM
Here is what I have you can see a picture in there but there's to much roll that cannot be adjusted. I even adjusted the hv ring thinking maybe low hv but no change. Sorry the iPad flipped the image.

Zenith26kc20
03-09-2017, 01:37 PM
Have you checked the value of the vertical controls? I had a open vertical centering on a TS-18 that drove me nuts! It had sweep, just bizarre. I had another one with 1/2 the value on vertical centering control. I had to add resistors on each end. Once I did, it worked great.

timmy
03-09-2017, 01:54 PM
Have you checked the value of the vertical controls? I had a open vertical centering on a TS-18 that drove me nuts! It had sweep, just bizarre. I had another one with 1/2 the value on vertical centering control. I had to add resistors on each end. Once I did, it worked great.

Both the vert hold and the size are good, ohms wise and the vert centering works correctly. This set is bizarre since I cannot find anything wrong.

jr_tech
03-09-2017, 02:45 PM
Do you still have the mis-matched capacitors in the vertical output?
Are you absolutely positive the vertical circuits are wired correctly?

Do you have a spare vertical oscillator transformer?

jr

timmy
03-09-2017, 03:08 PM
Do you still have the mis-matched capacitors in the vertical output?
Are you absolutely positive the vertical circuits are wired correctly?

Do you have a spare vertical oscillator transformer?

jr

I still have the different caps in place but they both test what they should in NF 4.50NF and I went over the SAMs and more then double check everything. Which is the vert oscillator trans T? I may have one from another set. I don't think there is a vert oscillator trans in the ts18.

jr_tech
03-09-2017, 03:18 PM
You are correct... no VOT in the set... sorry !

jr

bandersen
03-09-2017, 04:02 PM
Is one of the caps in the vertical ceramic ? It's capacitance will change when high voltage is applied causing problems. That's why you should use film or a ceramic cap much larger than what is called for. Swap the two caps around and see if the problem changes.

timmy
03-09-2017, 04:20 PM
Is one of the caps in the vertical ceramic ? It's capacitance will change when high voltage is applied causing problems. That's why you should use film or a ceramic cap much larger than what is called for. Swap the two caps around and see if the problem changes.

I thought about switching them around. I did put several red film caps in series and parallel to make .005 but that didn't do anything to help. I have the one white tubular on one side and 2 ceramic 2kv caps on the other side and are equal to the NF of the other but if the capacitance changes with hv then I guess it won't work.

jr_tech
03-09-2017, 05:15 PM
2kV??? those caps should be at least 6kV!

jr

timmy
03-09-2017, 05:51 PM
2kV??? those caps should be at least 6kV!

jr
I know 6 kv but I'll post a pic of the screen the way it is and another pic with a .01 cap paralleled with the .004 . This is baffling since it has a bright screen and a decent pic with these caps, which is only one side of the verticle has the ceramic.

timmy
03-09-2017, 05:57 PM
Ok here's the pics with the ca and without. And I tried another .004 I made up of film caps, 2 to match the pf. Ok the next post has the other pic.

timmy
03-09-2017, 05:59 PM
And the other.

EdKozk2
03-09-2017, 06:42 PM
Timmy,
Where did you ground the .004 cap, chassis or B- buss. It should be the B- buss.
Ed

timmy
03-09-2017, 06:50 PM
Timmy,
Where did you ground the .004 cap, chassis or B- buss. It should be the B- buss.
Ed
It's grounded to a factory tie strip that's tied to the 6sl7 that's where the .004 is grounded. Nothing was changed was all original where the cap was is where the new one went. The weird thing is upon turning it on for the first time it had a pic that rolled but the hold pot had to be maxed at one end to stop the roll then it went down hill fast to what I have now and it was good with those caps I have in there now . It's on b- not the steel chassis.

timmy
03-10-2017, 07:45 AM
Ok there is no more ceramics in the verticle and still after putting together several 2 kv metalized caps in series to make 6kv and the proper NF for this application no change. Is it possible that the 2 ceramics in the horizontal could be causing this even though the horiz works perfect. The ceramics in the horiz are .002 10 kv. My mistake the caps in the horiz are .002 not .001 so I don't think that would make much difference.

compucat
03-10-2017, 07:51 AM
You need the correct 6kV tubular caps in the vertical circuit to have correct linearity. The mix and match does not work well here.

timmy
03-10-2017, 05:40 PM
V11 pin 5 measured from pin4 of v10 measures 232vdc but the SAMs says 70vdc and I cannot get an accurate voltage reading on pins 2 and 5 of the 6sl7 with a digital vom. And v13 pin 2 shows 20k or 520 ohms but it measures 2.2 k this set is going to drive me to drink, omg lol.. Any help out there? I'm also using a glass ballast and tried a ballast made up of resistors.

jr_tech
03-10-2017, 06:15 PM
I belive that the 20k, 520ohms indicates a range of readings possible, depending on the setting of the horizontal size control... 2.2k is within that range.

As far as the high voltage on the plates of the vertical output tube is concerned, my guess is that your under voltage rated caps may be leaking CRT deflection high voltage back to the output tube (6SL7).

Until you replace the mis-matched under-voltage caps that you have in the vertical output circuit, all bets are off. :thumbsdn:

jr

timmy
03-10-2017, 06:37 PM
I belive that the 20k, 520ohms indicates a range of readings possible, depending on the setting of the horizontal size control... 2.2k is within that range.

As far as the high voltage on the plates of the vertical output tube is concerned, my guess is that your under voltage rated caps may be leaking CRT deflection high voltage back to the output tube (6SL7).

Until you replace the mis-matched under-voltage caps that you have in the vertical output circuit, all bets are off. :thumbsdn:

jr I have one correct tubular in there and the other is met film in series made up to 6 kv. With these caps I have in there now I thought it would work for now since I didn't order the rest of the caps.

jr_tech
03-10-2017, 07:14 PM
What is the value and voltage rating of each of the caps in series?

jr

timmy
03-10-2017, 07:28 PM
What is the value and voltage rating of each of the caps in series?

jr
The caps are 5.6 NF at 2 kv each. I have them in series to make up just about the equivalent of a .0047 6kv. My Dvom measures caps this is how I was able to do this, measure the asc cap I have and this is how I got the result using the others.

jr_tech
03-10-2017, 07:53 PM
You would have to have 3 in series to make a 6 kV rating... 3 5.6 nF in series would only be about 1.8 nF. Do the math, something is wrong in your configuration.

jr

kvflyer
03-11-2017, 07:30 AM
At the risk of sounding like a jerk, this is what you need. It's what I use and all I can say is that they just work.

http://www.justradios.com/ASCcapacitors.html

timmy
03-11-2017, 10:54 AM
In a previous post there is a pic of the set working with a really good picture but this will only happen when I parallel a .01 cap or even a 1 meg resistor with the .004 cap at the 6sl7 without that the other pic shown in the previous post is what I got so if these caps are not working then how would I get such a good pic otherwise. I know I need the right caps and I intend to get them but now I feel something else is going on here because when I put the new caps in and if I have the same problem then I'm back to square one looking for it. When I have the cap or resistor paralleled the vert hold works fine but I'm Alittle short on linearity so it seems as if there is another small problem that I'm not finding. I tried another .004 cap and made no difference. Resistance checks at the 6sl7 are right on but on v13 pin 2 SAMs shows it should be 20k to 520 ohms seems like a big swing but I'm getting only 2.2 k .

Electronic M
03-11-2017, 11:19 AM
And if the incorrect caps ARE causing your problem, and you decide to wait to change them until you've fixed the problem you will only end up chasing your tail forever....
You've already said every other component is good, the most logical move is to start with replacing the two that ain't. If your problem persists then we'll be a LOT more happy to help you trouble shoot it.
Besides how much time have you spent on it, and how much more might you waste on a probable cap issue? That time is probably several times more valuable than the caps.

timmy
03-19-2017, 08:06 PM
:smoke:Ok, all the hv caps are new and still don't have verticle this set is beginning to remind me of the silvertone. Any ideas what may be going on here. It's like it's rolling so much the screen just collapsed. There are 2 caps at the 6sl7, a 100 mmf and a 250 mmf I subbed those as well even tried another .004 cap at the 6sl7 also checked both vert size and hold pots both good 5 meg . There are no resistors that are bad I went over them clipping one leg to be sure. The 6.8 Meg's at the 6sl7 are up Alittle 7.5 meg which my other sets were up around there as well. All the 2.2 meg resistors are good except one I changed. Tried other tubes no change. The b+ and b++ voltages are right on. All Micas in the verticle and horiz I changed one at a time to see if there was any difference from mica to mica still no change. So now I guess I'm looking for one of the pros here to tell me what I may or may not have done. When I first fired the set up for the first time it had vert hold but the pot was maxed to keep it from rolling I then turned it off for some reason or other came back to it and had this crazy verticle problem.

jr_tech
03-19-2017, 09:05 PM
Perhaps you could post a under chassis photo? Might be able to spot something amiss. :scratch2:

jr

timmy
03-19-2017, 09:20 PM
Perhaps you could post a under chassis photo? Might be able to spot something amiss. :scratch2:

jr

Ok here it is. Sorry upside down again, I pad crap

jr_tech
03-20-2017, 03:26 PM
This is going to take a while... having a hard time making out much detail under V-11 and V-9 ... also not sure if I see R-60. :scratch2:

jr

timmy
03-20-2017, 03:59 PM
Yes r60 and 62 are 10 meg and they are in place. I guess I should think about a possible defective cap like the .1 at the vert hold pot which runs to the vert oscillator. I already had a cap that tested good but was bad in the circuit so that's the next thing I'll be doing.

jr_tech
03-20-2017, 04:24 PM
Looks like the .1 should be at the vert size pot, not the vertical hold.

How are you testing the caps?

jr

timmy
03-20-2017, 04:37 PM
The .1 is actually at both but separated by the 2.2 or 3.3 the resistor off the vert hold pot.

jr_tech
03-20-2017, 05:01 PM
duplicate... ignore

jr_tech
03-20-2017, 05:02 PM
Take another look at the schematic... I see no connection between C-63 (.1) and the 3.3 meg resistor (R-57) that goes to the vertical hold pot.

How are you testing the caps?

jr

timmy
03-20-2017, 06:20 PM
The connection is there where the vert hold and size pots are connected via resistors it's under the tie strap it goes to the vert oscillator . I have a Dvom that checks caps but does not apply any voltage to simulate actual in circuit operation.

jr_tech
03-20-2017, 07:26 PM
I don't see a connection on the schematic. I urge you to look at the schmatic and compare it and the wiring in the area of these two pots.

The cap may very well be leaky at operating voltage... Dvom measure of value only will not indicate that problem... if you have an old cap in that location, replace it, and any other old caps in the vertical sync, osc and output circuits.

jr

timmy
03-20-2017, 07:53 PM
I don't see a connection on the schematic. I urge you to look at the schmatic and compare it and the wiring in the area of these two pots.

The cap may very well be leaky at operating voltage... Dvom measure of value only will not indicate that problem... if you have an old cap in that location, replace it, and any other old caps in the vertical sync, osc and output circuits.

jr
I am aware that my meter won't check it in operating time so I will be subbing a few caps to maybe weed out a possible bad one. So I checked and good point my mistake it was not separated by the resistors I checked the schematic and it's all in place. Thing is first time on I had vert then it was gone so it may be a cap I hope. And there are no old caps left all changed and also all the Micas in the verticle and horizontal.

timmy
03-21-2017, 06:24 PM
Well still no luck here as I subbed all the key caps for verticle and no change i am wondering if the verticle centering could screw all of this verticle up the way it's doing although the vert centering does move up and down but don't know if this could be the cause. I would rather know if this may be it befor changing it I found have a spare.

bandersen
03-21-2017, 06:30 PM
Maybe your problem is further back. Have you gone over the sync circuit ?

timmy
03-21-2017, 06:44 PM
Yes I went over the SAMs and it all looks good sync v11 and at the 6sl7 and between the both, caps and Micas. I have never had something like this after going over what seems like everything and not finding a problem I thought it would have been obvious. If the vert centering pot goes bad being there is hv running past it would the ohms go down in value rather then up, a kind of carbonizing ?

Electronic M
03-21-2017, 09:42 PM
This may sound like cheating, but on my VT-71 when one axis of deflection was running off frequency I got out my cap decade box and played till I found I could add capacitance in parallel with a stock cap to get it into sync range. It worked and I've not looked back...It makes a decent last resort.

timmy
03-22-2017, 06:24 AM
This may sound like cheating, but on my VT-71 when one axis of deflection was running off frequency I got out my cap decade box and played till I found I could add capacitance in parallel with a stock cap to get it into sync range. It worked and I've not looked back...It makes a decent last resort.

It makes no sense there is a problem like when I parallel the .004 cap with a .01 it seemed to work but not perfect but now with the right hv caps that trick don't work anymore but I did parallel caps and I just cannot get it.

timmy
03-22-2017, 02:36 PM
Ok resistance checks on 6sl7 and 12sn7 sync tube are actually perfect according to SAMs.

jr_tech
03-22-2017, 02:40 PM
Very much a long shot, but have you tried another CRT that is known to be good? :scratch2:

jr

timmy
03-22-2017, 03:05 PM
Very much a long shot, but have you tried another CRT that is known to be good? :scratch2:

jryes I tried another crt same thing. But I did a resistance check on the horiz v13 and all pins are perfect except for pin 2 unless SAMs is wrong but it shows that what should be there is 20k-520 ohm but I'm getting 2.223k so this is not right . There is the horiz afc and block oscillator trans that pin 2 leads to one of those trans and I checked the resistors on both transformers one in the can and the one at the other trans and both are good .

jr_tech
03-22-2017, 03:21 PM
See post 31 and 32 in this thread... does the measured resistance at pin 2 of V-13 change when you vary rhe horizontal sice control?

jr

timmy
03-22-2017, 03:46 PM
There is no change in resistance on pin 2 of v13 when the horizontal size pot is turned . but the voltage tests do vary with the movement of the size and hold pots.

jr_tech
03-22-2017, 03:58 PM
Are you measuring the resistance from pin 4 of M-5, like the note at the bottom of the table says?

jr

timmy
03-22-2017, 04:07 PM
Sure did

jr_tech
03-22-2017, 04:49 PM
C-75 could be shorted, but I doubt that the horizontal would work ok if it was... a real head-scratcher. :scratch2:

jr

timmy
03-22-2017, 04:56 PM
C-75 could be shorted, but I doubt that the horizontal would work ok if it was... a real head-scratcher. :scratch2:

jr

That's a 900mmf that cap along with the other Micas were changed but each one I replaced I tried the set and after all of them were replaced I was left with the same problem. I checked the horiz afc and block trans and ohms are perfect. So I don't know what it is with pin 2 or if it even has to do with this odd problem.

Electronic M
03-22-2017, 05:50 PM
Could the blocking trans have a primary to secondary or windings to frame short?

timmy
03-22-2017, 06:06 PM
These transformers are small round things dipped in wax and the one trans is on a tie strap and the other is in a can on top and I took that apart and that one has insulating paper wrapped around it. So I guess it's safe to say I don't think there is a winding short to ground unless the ground was leaking in from somewhere else , I don't even know where to start to look for a possible ground leak into the verticle, and There is no 60hz hum in the audio.

timmy
03-23-2017, 12:00 PM
Still didn't figure this out, but there is 2 10meg resistors at the 6sl7 that I checked and also tried others and didn't work was the same no different but the one 10meg that is across pin 4 and 6 if I put a 1 meg across the 10meg I get a picture and vert hold the linearity is off on top and the hold is Alittle touchy. pin 6 is wired for ground and the one end of the .004 is also tacked to ground. It seems as if the tube is not conducting by why with a 1 meg it calls for 10 meg. If I try a 1 meg across the other 10meg it works very little bad picture and no response from vert hold or size. All this changes with the one resistor at 4 and 6 . I can't measure the voltage on the plates of the 6sl7 with a Dvom I won't get an accurate reading but measuring I do get a reading of 120 Vdc and 75 Vdc the SAMs shows a lot more so my meter won't tell but changing that resistor to a 1 meg I'm thinking lowering that resistor seems to allow the tube to conduct with possibly low voltage on the plates but the screen is super bright. The plates get voltage from the hv with the resistors which check ok. This is nuts already, I'm open to anything at this point

jr_tech
03-23-2017, 01:18 PM
Have you tried a different 6SL7? Possibly this one has grid emission. :scratch2:

Could there be a carbon path in the tube socket between pins 5 and 4 that is pulling the grid more positive than it should be?

You really need to get better voltage measurements... can you get another HV probe or fix the one you have?

jr

timmy
03-23-2017, 02:15 PM
Have you tried a different 6SL7? Possibly this one has grid emission. :scratch2:

Could there be a carbon path in the tube socket between pins 5 and 4 that is pulling the grid more positive than it should be?

You really need to get better voltage measurements... can you get another HV probe or fix the one you have?

jr
I tried several 6sl7 no change as for my hv probe tossed it last year could not fix it. Carbon path , well anything is possible but I need to find out how to know if there is a carbon path taking place befor I get into changing that socket. Do you have an idea how to determine if there is a carbon path. I don't here anything arcing nor do I smell any corona from hv. Pin 5 SAMs shows 320 Vdc and I find odd that the 6.8 meg at pin 5 gets warm but the other 6.8 don't.

jr_tech
03-23-2017, 02:28 PM
I would unsolder all of the connections to either pin 4 or pin 5 and mesure resistance between the two pins... leakage as high as 10 meg or so could mess up the bias on the tube.
You really need to get another HV probe, as low HV could be te main source of the problem.

jr

timmy
03-23-2017, 02:37 PM
I would unsolder all of the connections to either pin 4 or pin 5 and mesure resistance between the two pins... leakage as high as 10 meg or so could mess up the bias on the tube.
You really need to get another HV probe, as low HV could be te main source of the problem.

jr
I thought maybe low hv but the crt is super bright and I tried adjusting the ring on the 1b3 and of course no change. Should the tube remain in the socket when I remove from one pin and test?

jr_tech
03-23-2017, 03:33 PM
The tube shouldn't make any difference, unless it is the cause of leakage... try it both ways. You could also check the tube itself for any leakage between pins, but since you have tried several different tubes without changing the symptoms, it is unlikely that you will find any leakage unless they all have the same fault.

jr

EdKozk2
03-23-2017, 07:30 PM
Timmy,
Did you ever try spraying any cleaner into the vertical hold and size control to see if it would stabilize the vertical roll? Did you try wiggling V9, V11, or V12 while the set is on to see if it helped? I come across worn and dirty contacts all the time in old equipment. The cause of all sorts of issues. Just because parts are swapped or tested doesn't always eliminate the root cause.
Do you understand how the vertical feedback loop works with this set? If you have a scope, check to see if you are getting the proper trigger signal to your vertical oscillator grid from the sync separator/ integrator network.
Ed

timmy
03-23-2017, 08:31 PM
Timmy,
Did you ever try spraying any cleaner into the vertical hold and size control to see if it would stabilize the vertical roll? Did you try wiggling V9, V11, or V12 while the set is on to see if it helped? I come across worn and dirty contacts all the time in old equipment. The cause of all sorts of issues. Just because parts are swapped or tested doesn't always eliminate the root cause.
Do you understand how the vertical feedback loop works with this set? If you have a scope, check to see if you are getting the proper trigger signal to your vertical oscillator grid from the sync separator/ integrator network.
Ed
I did spray the verticle pots in the beginning thinking it would help but it didn't and yes I moved v9 ,11 , and 12 , nothing helped and I don't have a scope I'm an auto tech, lol so I wouldn't have that for a tv but I have 4 other of these sets I have done and never came across something like this I mean these sets are kind of simple but this problem is kicking my ass. I replaced every mica in the vert and horiz along with all the wax caps were done. After the wax caps fired up and the vert went down hill fast and since then I did the Micas one at a time to hoping to find the one culprit but after replacing all I'm still left with this problem. I checked to see if any carbon shorts in the 6sl7 socket and none showed up. And all the 6 kv caps new also. Just don't get what's going on I am out of areas to check. In the beginning it seemed like a resistor went up fast but I only found one 2.2 meg that went up to 22 meg so I changed it and the 2- 6.8 meg resistors at the 6sl7 measure around 7.5 meg not all that high since I think my other sets were around there to but they work . And thinking one was breaking down in circuit I subbed them and still make no difference. I also subbed the vert size and hold pots no change. And also moved v10 the oscillator no change.

EdKozk2
03-24-2017, 02:17 AM
Tim,
Since you don't have a scope you could try to isolate the trouble better. Disconnect/ unsolder C61 250mmf from pin 4 of V9. Leave C61 disconnected and then turn on the set. The picture should roll but, see if you can adjust the vertical size, if so set it. Next see if the vertical hold control has any effect on the vertical roll. If you can get the vertical roll to almost stop with the vertical hold in mid-position thats good. If the vertical hold has no effect or won't slow down enough then the trouble could well be a bad cap or resistor. The bad cap or resistor would determine the time constant the free running vertical oscillator frequency.
If the vertical roll can be slowed down and controlled, then I would next start checking the output of the sync separator. Try connecting a voltmeter set on AC volts, high range to start, to the end of the disconnected C61. You should be getting an AC voltage reading of some sort. You may have to adjust your voltmeters range downward to get a better reading. If there is no AC voltage present then the trouble is syn related. The integrated sync pulse voltage is what your trying to measure. Try these steps and let us know the results.

timmy
03-24-2017, 07:17 AM
Tim,
Since you don't have a scope you could try to isolate the trouble better. Disconnect/ unsolder C61 250mmf from pin 4 of V9. Leave C61 disconnected and then turn on the set. The picture should roll but, see if you can adjust the vertical size, if so set it. Next see if the vertical hold control has any effect on the vertical roll. If you can get the vertical roll to almost stop with the vertical hold in mid-position thats good. If the vertical hold has no effect or won't slow down enough then the trouble could well be a bad cap or resistor. The bad cap or resistor would determine the time constant the free running vertical oscillator frequency.
If the vertical roll can be slowed down and controlled, then I would next start checking the output of the sync separator. Try connecting a voltmeter set on AC volts, high range to start, to the end of the disconnected C61. You should be getting an AC voltage reading of some sort. You may have to adjust your voltmeters range downward to get a better reading. If there is no AC voltage present then the trouble is syn related. The integrated sync pulse voltage is what your trying to measure. Try these steps and let us know the results.
Ok I took the leg of c61 250mmf off and the size has very little affect and the vert hold also it's hard to see anything it's rolling so fast the hold I can see it slows Alittle from one end to the other on turning the pot the same for the size pot. I checked the cap pin for ac volts and I get .300 vac jumping around a bit. If there is a bad cap I may put in or a resistor I may have missed do you have an idea which one It might be. Maybe I put in a cap that is detective .

kvflyer
03-24-2017, 08:06 AM
If you can't get the vertical to stop rolling with the hold control, (with the sync pulse disconnected) it seems as thought he vertical oscillator is off frequency. You should be able to get the picture to get close however, it needs sync to lock in.

You might check the capacitors in the oscillator circuit to be sure the correct value is there. Also, resistors for one that may have gone high in value or maybe one that was replaced with a value that is 10 off (Like 270KΩ instead of 27KΩ or .01 ᶙFD instead of .001 ᶙFd).

Just a thought. I realize how maddening it is!

timmy
03-24-2017, 09:13 AM
This is what happens when I put a 1 meg across the .004 cap and if I measure across the resistor there is around 3 volts dc I'm also showing 2.7 volts ac as well.tried another .004. With out the resistor can't see a pic and nothing works. Almost seems maybe ground leakage or ac getting to ground and the resistor kills it enough to work Alittle, ah I don't know.

EdKozk2
03-24-2017, 04:07 PM
Timmy,
I compared the Sams schematic to the Riders for the TS-18 chassis. There seem to be a few differences and maybe errors. I' ll use Sams part numbers. Resistor R-59 should be 22 meg not 2.2 meg. Resistor R-56 is shown as 150K ohms not 100k. Also make sure C-61 through C-68 are the correct replacements,
voltage and tolerance wise. If trying these changes don't slow down the vertical then you can try increasing the capacitance of C-64.
Ed

timmy
03-24-2017, 04:52 PM
[QUOTE=EdKozk2;3181220]Timmy,
I compared the Sams schematic to the Riders for the TS-18 chassis. There seem to be a few differences and maybe errors. I' ll use Sams part numbers. Resistor R-59 should be 22 meg not 2.2 meg. Resistor R-56 is shown as 150K ohms not 100k. Also make sure C-61 through C-68 are the correct replacements,
voltage and tolerance wise. If trying these changes don't slow down the vertical then you can try increasing the capacitance of C-64.
Ed[/QUOTE
Well it is a ts18 but the resistor I pulled out judging by the colors was a 2.2 and it's weird that the riders would say a 22 meg goes there. This chassis was never touched it had all the old wax caps and where r56 is it's definitely original 100k and the Micas don't show a voltage but the Micas I put in are the same ones in my other tvs , ts4d, ts18, and so on and are rated for 500 v and may be a few rated for 1000 v other then that all the caps that replaced are 600 v .

jr_tech
03-24-2017, 04:53 PM
Resistor R-59 should be 22 meg not 2.2 meg

I think you found the "red X".... just checked the Sams schematics for VT 71 and 73 and they both have 20 to 22 meg at that location.:thmbsp:

jr

timmy
03-24-2017, 05:01 PM
Resistor R-59 should be 22 meg not 2.2 meg

I think you found the "red X".... just checked the Sams schematics for VT 71 and 73 and they both have 20 to 22 meg at that location.:thmbsp:

jr
The resistor I took out was original and if it were an original 22 meg resistor I don't think it would have measured a perfect 22 after all the years I would have thought it would have been up around 25 or 28 meg. My SAMs I got from early television and r59 shows 2.2 meg so I'm now really confused.

EdKozk2
03-24-2017, 05:13 PM
Timmy,
The parts list in the Sams shows 22 meg, but the schematic is most likely incorrect.

timmy
03-24-2017, 05:19 PM
OH ok I'll look then I'll look for a 22 meg or make one up. I do remember I didn't get anything different after putting in that 2.2 so I'll get on that and let you know.

timmy
03-24-2017, 06:31 PM
Ok, you guys nailed it, lol, omg what a headache yes it was a 22 meg so next time I will be double checking the parts list and I know better I have had problems like this befor with SAMs. So in anyone's opinion rather then an exact 22 meg which may be better, 15,16, 18 meg I don't want to go over 22 meg. And the vert hold is about maxed so I'm going to add a resistor but the wiper is closest to the ground end so should I increase or decrease the value, I think in the beginning I paralleled a resistor to the I think it's 3.3 meg at the pot to have it at least mid point. I guess it's age within the pot. And again thanks very much for all the help now it's yet another learning experience for me. What value should I start with on the pot. Thanks. Ok well I decided to leave the vert hold alone even though it's close to a quarter befor the end but it locks strong and the 22 meg I wound up putting in a resistor close to 19 meg and the vert size is good and chances are if I had put in 22 meg it may change the position of the vert hold toward the half mark.

timmy
03-25-2017, 11:22 AM
Here is the final result although it's a green tube because the tube that came with the set is on the dark side but watchable but I'm not going to use it.

EdKozk2
03-25-2017, 07:40 PM
Picture looks good Timmy.

kvflyer
03-26-2017, 11:09 AM
A little late to the party (as usual). Here is a scan of a Motorola schematic, dated 20 December, 1949. It is from the Motorola Company, not Sams etc.

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u435/kvflyer1/TS18_zpsdfp8smuc.jpg

timmy
03-26-2017, 01:57 PM
Yes I see r61 22 meg my mistake had I not checked that resistor befor I replaced all the Micas in the verticle because I changed the resistor then tried it and was no good then I changed the Micas and still no good when all along it was the Micas and not that resistor. I had problems befor with SAMs and I should have know to compare the parts list with the schematic. Again my mistake because I thought the resistor was red, red, green 2.2 meg, instead it was red, red, blue 22 meg. Thanks

jr_tech
04-01-2017, 09:10 PM
Because of this thread, I chose a TS18 chassis set as my next restoration victim. This is a 7VT2, like shown here:

http://www.tvhistory.tv/1949-Motorola-7VT2.JPG

This looks like a fun project, getting a little tired of doing RCA 8PT70xx sets and needed a change of pace. I verified that r-59 (Sams#) is indeed 22 meg and tests pretty close. Ballast is open, so I am working out a substitute.

jr

timmy
04-02-2017, 02:42 PM
Electrostatic yes it's a change from the other .

timmy
04-02-2017, 04:30 PM
I have several of these 7 inch sets all hooked up and I seemed to develope these lines up and down on all the sets so I added an amplifier to the antenna and it cured it but just yesterday this one set got the lines back and have no clue what else would do this. All the others are crystal clear and all share the same ant line.

jr_tech
04-02-2017, 06:13 PM
Does it still display the lines if it is the only set turned on?

jr

timmy
04-02-2017, 06:34 PM
Does it still display the lines if it is the only set turned on?

jr

All the other sets on lines are there and when they are off ,however I took the set to the beginning of the ant string, stronger signal and no lines but this is the set with the annoying hum in the audio so even though I checked the tubes for any heater cathode shorts, showed none but I'm thinking there is a tube in the IF that may have a short causing the hum as well as the lack of the set to operate with the signal that's there since the others work fine.

Electronic M
04-03-2017, 07:51 AM
I have several of these 7 inch sets all hooked up and I seemed to develope these lines up and down on all the sets so I added an amplifier to the antenna and it cured it but just yesterday this one set got the lines back and have no clue what else would do this. All the others are crystal clear and all share the same ant line.

If all the sets were exhibiting it with a weak signal then it makes me think it is an RF interference issue. Are there any local DTV carriers (beware 'virtual' channels that report a different channel number than their actual carrier) on or adjacent to the channel your using? If you nix the RF amp and hook up a CRT TV from the 80's-00's does it display the same symptoms?

timmy
04-03-2017, 10:14 AM
If all the sets were exhibiting it with a weak signal then it makes me think it is an RF interference issue. Are there any local DTV carriers (beware 'virtual' channels that report a different channel number than their actual carrier) on or adjacent to the channel your using? If you nix the RF amp and hook up a CRT TV from the 80's-00's does it display the same symptoms?

In the last post what I meant was all the other sets are fine no lines but weather the others are on or off the one set has the lines. So the problem is the one set.

Electronic M
04-03-2017, 10:50 AM
In the last post what I meant was all the other sets are fine no lines but weather the others are on or off the one set has the lines. So the problem is the one set.

I was responding to an older post....I edited to include a quote of what I was replying to.