View Full Version : Cleveland TV station switching to a DTV subchannel


Jeffhs
02-17-2017, 01:27 PM
I just read today that one of Cleveland's UHF television stations, the city's first commercial UHF station (went on the air in 1968), will be changing to a DTV subchannel in the near future, according to an article at Cleveland.com. The article said the station is not leaving the air, despite rumors that it would in fact sign off permanently as a result of the FCC's spectrum auction. The auction will end on March 30, again according to the Cleveland.com article. This article also stated that TV viewers may need to rescan their TVs once the station's OTA transmitter is sold. If this happens (as I am sure it will), how do I go about rescanning my own television? My TV's remote has so many buttons on it it confuses me (I cannot read very well due to vision problems, so half the time I don't know which buttons do what anymore, and in fact some buttons don't do anything; I get confused when I try to use the buttons on the side of my TV as well).

I wish I could go back to the old style of television that has two knobs on the front for channel tuning; at least with these sets (I've owned several), there is no rescanning or other nonsense required if and when TV stations change channels. I don't care for DTV either (I cannot tell the difference in picture quality between standard definition and HD television anyway on my 19-inch flat screen) and could live without it. I still have two 19-inch CRT TVs and am ready at any time to use one of them to replace my flat screen, as DTV is much too complicated for me; as I said, I cannot tell the difference between standard definition and HD pictures, so high-definition picture quality is lost to me.

Electronic M
02-17-2017, 01:49 PM
Scanning for channels varies from model to model...You need to RTFM!

jr_tech
02-17-2017, 01:55 PM
Since he appears to be not using an OTA antenna, just Roku and perhaps some cable connection for viewing, I should think that no scanning of his tv would be necessary.

jr

Jeffhs
02-17-2017, 03:12 PM
Scanning for channels varies from model to model...You need to RTFM!

What is "RTFM"? Please write your responses in words I understand, and do not use these cryptic abbreviations; in fact, if that particular abbreviation stands for one or more indecent words, don't bother explaining it to me. Please answer my question without getting upset or insulting.

My TV is important to me because I cannot read well (my eyeglasses, as strong as they are, do not work well for me anymore). How will I get the new DTV channel for Cleveland's channel 43 without going to a lot of trouble? I am not even sure my Roku will get the new station once it is moved to the new digital channel.

I have had it with DTV. I wish, oh how I wish I could go back to the old type of TV with a nice big knob on the front that changes channels, as was almost universal in the '50s until the DTV era started, instead of this DTV stuff that needs to be rescanned every time something changes with the television stations. Is there any place in the United States that still has the old analog channels that can be tuned in simply by turning a knob that clicks? That system served this country well for over five decades, until this DTV garbage arrived and ruined everything.

For jr_tech: Yes, I still have my Roku and a cable connection (no standard television antenna), so I should not have to rescan my TV even if the channels change. However, there is still the question of if or when the new channel will be added to the channel guide on the Roku. On second thought, why should I worry about it? I almost never watch channel 43 anyway, since the station carries most Cleveland sports and I do not care for sports--never have in all my 60 years and never will.

Electronic M
02-17-2017, 04:07 PM
RTFM is a ubiquitous phrase among engineers....I lost count of times in college times in college that students asked dumb/lazy questions and professors flatly told them to RTFM.

Jeffhs
02-17-2017, 08:24 PM
RTFM is a ubiquitous phrase among engineers....I lost count of times in college times in college that students asked dumb/lazy questions and professors flatly told them to RTFM.

I beg your pardon. My late father was an electrical engineer and I never, ever, heard him use that expression (or whatever its equivalent may have been in the 1950s through 1970, when my father was an EE working for the National Acme Company in Cleveland).

BTW and for what it is worth, in reference to my being unable to read the labels on the buttons on my TV remote (or on my television itself), it is because I was in an accident about 15 years ago in which I hit my head very hard on the ground; I had to go to the ER in a distant town to have 11 stitches in my head (I still have a scar above one eye from that). I probably sustained a concussion or worse as a result of the accident, and I feel very fortunate to be alive to tell about it today. The accident messed up not only my memory but, I am afraid, my eyesight as well. I wear very strong eyeglasses that do not work well for me anymore; the channel guide on my Roku streaming player, for example, uses such a small font that I have quite a bit of difficulty reading it. Reading is very difficult for me at this time (for the same reasons) as well. Too darn bad, as I used to enjoy reading. Life is so darned unfair. I am 60 years old and far too young, IMO, to give up reading just yet.

dieseljeep
02-17-2017, 09:17 PM
Scanning for channels varies from model to model...You need to RTFM!
I'm another one living in the past! I had to use a Google search on the acronym. It all make sense now. :scratch2:

dieseljeep
02-17-2017, 09:26 PM
I just read today that one of Cleveland's UHF television stations, the city's first commercial UHF station (went on the air in 1968), will be changing to a DTV subchannel in the near future, according to an article at Cleveland.com. The article said the station is not leaving the air, despite rumors that it would in fact sign off permanently as a result of the FCC's spectrum auction. The auction will end on March 30, again according to the Cleveland.com article. This article also stated that TV viewers may need to rescan their TVs once the station's OTA transmitter is sold. If this happens (as I am sure it will), how do I go about rescanning my own television? My TV's remote has so many buttons on it it confuses me (I cannot read very well due to vision problems, so half the time I don't know which buttons do what anymore, and in fact some buttons don't do anything; I get confused when I try to use the buttons on the side of my TV as well).

I wish I could go back to the old style of television that has two knobs on the front for channel tuning; at least with these sets (I've owned several), there is no rescanning or other nonsense required if and when TV stations change channels. I don't care for DTV either (I cannot tell the difference in picture quality between standard definition and HD television anyway on my 19-inch flat screen) and could live without it. I still have two 19-inch CRT TVs and am ready at any time to use one of them to replace my flat screen, as DTV is much too complicated for me; as I said, I cannot tell the difference between standard definition and HD pictures, so high-definition picture quality is lost to me.
I'm surprised to hear of any analogue channels in any area. I thought, they were all gone by now! :scratch2:

Electronic M
02-17-2017, 10:27 PM
I beg your pardon. My late father was an electrical engineer and I never, ever, heard him use that expression (or whatever its equivalent may have been in the 1950s through 1970, when my father was an EE working for the National Acme Company in Cleveland).

BTW and for what it is worth, in reference to my being unable to read the labels on the buttons on my TV remote (or on my television itself), it is because I was in an accident about 15 years ago in which I hit my head very hard on the ground; I had to go to the ER in a distant town to have 11 stitches in my head (I still have a scar above one eye from that). I probably sustained a concussion or worse as a result of the accident, and I feel very fortunate to be alive to tell about it today. The accident messed up not only my memory but, I am afraid, my eyesight as well. I wear very strong eyeglasses that do not work well for me anymore; the channel guide on my Roku streaming player, for example, uses such a small font that I have quite a bit of difficulty reading it. Reading is very difficult for me at this time (for the same reasons) as well. Too darn bad, as I used to enjoy reading. Life is so darned unfair. I am 60 years old and far too young, IMO, to give up reading just yet.
50 years ago and 2-7 years ago are VERY different times...Things change. Most people have have lost outrage and ability to be offended...There are places where even in upscale/wealthy neighborhoods flipping the bird is a more common greeting than "hello". Things that used to be rude are now normal....Hell they don't even censor the S and F words on many TV shows anymore...Welcome to life outside your bubble.

If you can read this forum then you can read the manual...In 5 minutes you can Google your sets make model + manual, find a PDF file of it that you can download, and zoom in on till the letters are as big as your thumb if that is what you need to do to read it...

WISCOJIM
02-18-2017, 01:10 AM
Jeffhs, your first post has you all worried about needing to rescan your TV to change the OTA channel and asking us how to do it...without even telling us the brand and model of your TV.

This article also stated that TV viewers may need to rescan their TVs once the station's OTA transmitter is sold. If this happens (as I am sure it will), how do I go about rescanning my own television?

Your second post indicates that rescanning your TV involves a lot of trouble.

How will I get the new DTV channel for Cleveland's channel 43 without going to a lot of trouble?

You then disclose that you are not receiving the station OTA anyway, that you are receiving the station via cable, making your need to rescan your TV totally unnecessary.

For jr_tech: Yes, I still have my Roku and a cable connection (no standard television antenna), so I should not have to rescan my TV even if the channels change.

You then confess that none of this matters anyway, because you don't even want to watch that particular channel...

On second thought, why should I worry about it? I almost never watch channel 43 anyway, since the station carries most Cleveland sports and I do not care for sports--never have in all my 60 years and never will.

So why did you even post in the first place? It seems that every few months you launch into an attack on your TV reception issues and long for the way things were in the past. Times have changed, and your griping repeatedly about it is not going to change things back to the way they once were. You've got to learn to accept that things change and learn to adapt to it. And if you have such difficulty with problems like using your TV because the remote confuses you, ask for the help of family, friends, or neighbors who can easily show you in person what to do.


.

Chip Chester
02-18-2017, 09:55 AM
Unlike 50 years ago, almost anything you need to know is a few mouse-clicks away. Not big enough to read? Just enlarge it so that each word fills the screen. Still too small? Have your computer read it to you. Can't hear it very well? Pair your computer to your bluetooth-enabled hearing aids and beam it in that way. Bigger hearing problem? Cochlear implant. So in general, accommodations have gotten much better over the last half-century.

To your specific issue, most TVs allow you to directly enter the channel number, including sub-channel. 10.2, or 10 (dash) 2, etc. depending on model. Don't have a Roku, but if it acts like a tuner, it'll probably do it. If it comes in over cable, then call your cable company and ask. You won't be the first or the last. If you don't watch it anyway, don't bother! Turn the TV off and go outside -- it's gonna be 60 degrees out there today!

Use the extra time to check in with your doctor, to see if similar advancements have been made pertaining to your condition. Nerve, vision, and other issues are seeing constant breakthroughs, and Cleveland area has some pretty big players in the medical field. Plus, 60 is pretty young these days.

Good luck!
Chip

Jeffhs
02-18-2017, 01:18 PM
Jeffhs, your first post has you all worried about needing to rescan your TV to change the OTA channel and asking us how to do it...without even telling us the brand and model of your TV.



Your second post indicates that rescanning your TV involves a lot of trouble.



You then disclose that you are not receiving the station OTA anyway, that you are receiving the station via cable, making your need to rescan your TV totally unnecessary.



You then confess that none of this matters anyway, because you don't even want to watch that particular channel...



So why did you even post in the first place? It seems that every few months you launch into an attack on your TV reception issues and long for the way things were in the past. Times have changed, and your griping repeatedly about it is not going to change things back to the way they once were. You've got to learn to accept that things change and learn to adapt to it. And if you have such difficulty with problems like using your TV because the remote confuses you, ask for the help of family, friends, or neighbors who can easily show you in person what to do.


.

My family is mostly deceased (my mother died in 1966, my father died in 1998; they had no other children besides me), and the few relatives who are left live too far away from me (or are too old) to be of any help. I do not drive, either. (I live in a very small town 30 miles east of Cleveland; most of my few surviving relatives live in the city or in suburbs or small towns 50 miles away.) Despite having lived here seventeen years, I do not know anyone in my neighborhood who can help me, as most folks here keep to themselves and are very difficult to get to know; to make matters even worse, I have no idea if they even know what a Roku player is or how to rescan a flat screen TV. There is one elderly lady in my apartment building whom I am sure knows nothing about TV; she has a Zenith 19-inch television very similar to my old Zenith CRT set, but I am told it is hooked up to a cable box. I don't know if she is still alive, as I almost never see her; haven't seen much of her, in fact, for years if at all. I do not know anyone else in the building; as I said, these folks keep to themselves and are almost impossible to get to know.


I am not kidding or making any of this up, and I am very well not trying to be difficult. There is one man who lives just a couple blocks from me, an amateur radio operator, no less, who will have nothing whatsoever to do with me; I found this out several years ago when I asked him for help on a problem I was having with something I was working on at the time. I left him my name and phone number during an amateur radio roundtable, but he never responded.

Believe me, again, I am not trying to cause trouble or to be difficult. I have tried to explain my situation here the best I can. It may seem unbelievable or even incredible, but that is, unfortunately, the situation I have had to live with for years, and probably will live with the rest of my life; in fact, as far as my relatives are concerned, it will only get worse, since they are all getting up in years, live too far away from me and refuse to drive this far, or both.

For the person who asked about my Roku streaming video player: No, the Roku is not a television tuner. It does not have a thing to do with RF signals or cable, just video streams, and it works only with stations it finds automatically over the Internet (there is no way to manually input individual television channels, as its remote does not have a keypad; a universal remote will not allow input of individual stations either). My cable service is such that I only get seven local TV stations, one of which is channel 43; this station will eventually move to a DTV subchannel of the CBS television affiliate because the former's RF spectrum was recently sold in an FCC spectrum auction.

tubetwister
07-02-2017, 12:19 AM
:tongue:Scanning for channels varies from model to model...You need to RTFM!

Right some TV have one or more toooo slow channel scan routines like my Mediatek CPU 2013 40" 1080p Sony Bravia and 2015 55" 4K HDR Sony XBR Triluminos and the 2013 42"1080p LG LED/LCD are all slow and cumbersome scanning local RF channels into the channel memory blocks or doing anything at all .

OTOH the 2 mo. new out of box 2016 Samsung 4K QDOT 10 bit color HDR 1000 55" TV on the man cave/ wall in here scans in 34 locals at the push of an intuitive on screen Samsung Smart Hub access remote button & simple orbit > center button routine in seconds . it has a fast Samsung 4 Core CPU/SoC in it and turns on cold maybe 2 sec to in use > off /standby 1-2 sec. and reboots in maybe 5-7 sec. to last in use or default at an R/F and voice capable smart remote power button soft reset .

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rjWhl9tGEBs/V81R6wzx9NI/AAAAAAAAGOQ/9Eo1c6XXVpcBTImjnZfPa157cQHZKEVfQCLcB/s1600/Samsung-Smart-Remote-Header.jpg


OTOH some years ago you couldn't give me a Samsung TV ,I had new Sonys (lots of them) mostly since 1994 but given I just had to put a new LED bar in the LCD panel and fix two boards in the 2015 4K HDR Sony 55X850C and new LED lamps in the 2013 1080p Sony Bravia inside of two years you can keep the new Sony Bravia subsidiary TV's

My 3.5 X brighter 2016 55 KS 8000 Samsung 4K HDR 1000 TV runs way cooler than the 55" Sony X850C anyway so thats better quality LED and thermal designs and also @ less wattage, 1.5 " thinner and lighter ,and both edge lit too by comparison my 2015 Sony is a Ford and the 2016 Samsung is a swift state of the art Bentley turbo ! :tongue:

David Roper
07-05-2017, 05:09 AM
I think the salient points are A) you're getting 43 by cable, so this switch will not be an issue for you and B) you don't care whether you get it or don't, so this switch will not be an issue for you.

Robert Grant
07-05-2017, 01:08 PM
The owner of two television stations in Cleveland made what I consider a questionable move for money. They sold the powerful UHF license and kept the weaker VHF one, and will be moving the 43 (WUAB) programs to the weaker RF channel 10.transmitter sharing it with CBS (WOIO). I'm sure some subchannels will get cut to make room on the single transmitter's data stream.

Viewers who reliably receive CBS over the air with an antenna will probably never see a difference. PSIP not only allows multiple virtual channels like 19.1, 19.2, 19..., it makes possible the arrangement of 19.1, 19.2 and 43.1, 43... on the same channel 10 transmitter, so someone who has been watching 19 will be equally able to.watch channel 43.

Problem is, a lot of people in the Cleveland area have trouble getting reliable service from CBS 19 and those viewers will be losing 43 as well. If they had sold out the channel 10 spectrum, they would have received less auction proceeds, but they could have moved the 19.1 CBS service to the UHF transmitter (along with 43) and have solved their coverage problems.

It is interesting to note that Univision did not sell their spectrum in Cleveland, an auction result I would have expected (counting Spanish-speaking markets, Cleveland is one market rank above Lexington, Nebraska). I could easily see CBS getting frustrated with its poor OTA coverage of the Cleveland market, and looking for a new affiliate or O&O, perhaps considering swapping a handful of stations in smaller markets that are bilingual for a great signal (and content control) in big Anglophone Cleveland.

centralradio
07-05-2017, 01:43 PM
I thinks as of now there is no stations here in CT will get a reprieve getting piggybacked with another channel.All of our main stations will stay on the air as they are now.We will lose a few low budget stations,A PBS afil ,and a couple Spanish language stations which all will go off the air for good and take the loot..

DavGoodlin
07-07-2017, 02:20 PM
WWSI is Telemundo for South Jersey. One day after never being able to pull it in, it locked in on the Samsung SIRT-451, not an e-skip fluke either.

After scanning in on another DT, I found it was coming from one of the Philly transmitters as a subchannel, though it's virtual was still 62.1

It would be nice if WHYY would abandon VHF 12, they broadcast much less power than is needed to cover their area, and go as a sub on one of the flamethrower transmitters like WPHL-17.

Jeffhs
07-08-2017, 10:56 AM
It would be nice if WHYY would abandon VHF 12, they broadcast much less power than is needed to cover their area, and go as a sub on one of the flamethrower transmitters like WPHL-17.

It's a matter of economics. Using a DTV subchannel in the VHF TV band, with a VHF transmitter of course, is much less expensive than setting up a UHF DTV channel, since VHF TV transmitters and towers, etc. are cheaper than UHF ones. The same situation exists here in northeastern Ohio with the CBS TV affiliate, and also with the FOX affiliate. The CBS station transmits on VHF DTV channel 10 (virtual channel 19), which reaches the western half of the Cleveland area just fine; however, the channel does not reach the eastern half of the station's viewing area, making it impossible to watch that station with rabbit ears and a DTV converter or with such an antenna connected directly to the TV, even a flat-screen set with a clear-QAM tuner. (The same holds true for FOX channel 8, which transmits on RF channel 8.) To get either station's DTV subchannel at all requires a high-power VHF high-band antenna. Your situation with channel 12, which is located, IIRC, in Wilmington, Delaware, is very similar to the one folks here in northeastern Ohio have to tolerate with the CBS affiliate and also the FOX station on channel 8; this is not likely to change any time soon, or perhaps at all.

Robert Grant
07-09-2017, 10:19 PM
WWSI is Telemundo for South Jersey. One day after never being able to pull it in, it locked in on the Samsung SIRT-451, not an e-skip fluke either.


No, a trop fluke! Sporadic-E skip only affects HF and VHF (and not the whole of VHF at that).

Tropospheric refraction affects VHF and UHF. Trop (also called tropo) is more common than E-skip, but usually involves shorter distances than Es.

Most trop openings affect all TV channels and the FM broadcast band, but the low VHF channels and the FM band are sometimes excluded.

DavGoodlin
07-11-2017, 10:10 AM
What Jeff is experiencing in the Cleveland coverage area is also true in most of this area. If you want all the channels and are outside of the near-suburbs, its not always possible unless you have an outdoor VHF antenna, and if it is not a large one with a least 8 elements, usually a mast-mounted pre-amp is needed for stable VHF.

I have found rabbit ears useless for all but one local channel WGAL-8, which is high band V. It makes customer's antenna installations difficult because the other local is WHTM-10 the ABC, but to pull just that ONE channel, a 10-element HB yagi or VHF broadband must be added to a modest UHF antenna, which easily pulls in the 5 UHF locals. This makes an easy installation much more complex, large and for some, unsightly.

The stations who decided to remain on VHF as DT have become the "difficult" channels where for UHF, the opposite is true. Most of those UHF fringe channels now on DT can be received with a classic corner reflector or 4-bay bowtie!

Prior to DTV, WJZ-13, WBAL-11, WPVI-6 and WHYY-12 could be received with a small VHF antenna up to 60 miles away, as we are. After DTV, a much larger VHF is needed, with an amp

centralradio
07-12-2017, 01:28 AM
Sorry to tune off topic alittlebet. .Pun intended. What is surprising to me is whats happening in TV's number one market with WNBC TV 4.


http://www.radiodiscussions.com/showthread.php?701637-Comcast-sells-WNBC-TV-s-spectrum-(yes-that-WNBC)-for-214-million


http://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/local-tv/nbc-sells-spectrum-wnbc-wsns-wwsi/164893

DavGoodlin
07-13-2017, 01:09 PM
WCAU has a way better signal on DT-34, WWSI is way better off there, allows them to compete directly with WUVP. This eliminates the coverage area advantage WUVP enjoyed. KYW and WPHL are also good candidates to add sub-channels and charge "rent", as these are the most stable even at the fringe.