View Full Version : Yet another Zenith To identify


Dreamsbeard
04-10-2016, 08:12 AM
Hey guys,

Saw this add for a zenith not to far from here, but I can't tell what it is. It looks like it has a chromatic swith on the upper right corner, and channel selector buttons on the left side...can't quite make it out... CCII or early system 3? What do you guys think?

Thanks!

zeno
04-10-2016, 09:20 AM
This is a tough one. If its got a red chromatic it
should be a CC2 upright, probably a J or K

If it has a yellow color sentry button with light
sensor a System 3 probably 1st gen with power transformer.

Complicating matters is a few Sys3 sets were sold late
J line & NOT called System 3.
Its a fine looking set & if a first gen S3 its much worth
saving. Probably the most reliable color Zenith built.

73 Zeno:smoke:

sampson159
04-10-2016, 01:41 PM
looks like the system 3 set i have.inline crt and that terrible tuner!mine has some bad contacts and drifts.crt is excellent and makes a beautiful picture.also has zoom,which i have no reason to use.very good set and right up there with the chromacolor chassis for reliability

Dreamsbeard
04-10-2016, 03:50 PM
Excellent, will contact the seller and try to get the price down (they are asking 75$).

Thanks!

dishdude
04-10-2016, 04:29 PM
I like that cabinet.

jstout66
04-12-2016, 06:46 AM
that is a tough call.. I'm going to say a late CC2.
Let us know if you find out!

Dreamsbeard
04-27-2016, 10:26 PM
that is a tough call.. I'm going to say a late CC2.
Let us know if you find out!

Seems you where right! Its a 1977, CCII 25HC45. Just popped the back to take a few pictures. TV works, but tube seems tired (brightness and contrast where max out and it was making a barely bright enough picture). Cabinet is in very nice shape, and it is pretty clean inside. I'll let it run a few hours to see if the tube wakes up a bit.

MRX37
04-27-2016, 10:31 PM
Tube probably has a lot of life left in it. I have a 19" CCII, strong, bright picture. Starts off red as it warms up but once warmed up it's probably the brightest CRT set I have.

And I see that big cap is orange, good.

Dreamsbeard
04-27-2016, 10:36 PM
Yes, its the first thing I checked : the orange drop are there so no worries. Also the insides of the set are pretty clean, so it probably means its wasnt used that much.

MRX37
04-28-2016, 12:24 AM
Yeah you're right. If it was a high hour set there would probably be dust in all the little nooks and crannies but from that pic of the back it looks near mint.

CRT probably just needs to wake up... or something's causing a dim image.

This looks like a job for a CRT tester!

Dreamsbeard
04-28-2016, 07:44 AM
looks like the system 3 set i have.inline crt and that terrible tuner!mine has some bad contacts and drifts.crt is excellent and makes a beautiful picture.also has zoom,which i have no reason to use.very good set and right up there with the chromacolor chassis for reliability

From the look of it, it seems we have the same tuner problem, the thing drifts like hell to the point that its imposible to watch something if the AFT function is not turned on.

Oh and by the way could a moderator change the title of the thread to "identify" instead of "identified"...it makes my eyes bleed haha

Update :

I plugged the CRT tester to it and yep, the CRT pings my B & K at 1.1 on the scale for all the guns so its in the good section, so not a problem. But the TV has a few problems and here they are;

- I have to put brightness and contrast all the way up to get a bright enough picture.
- Even with the sound swith all the way down I get a buzzing sound from the speaker and moving up and down gives a really jerky sound. (could it mean that the speaker is busted?)
- I get intermitent flickers on the screen.

I cleaned all the pots and switches on the front hopping it would solve most of the issues, but if anything it made it worst (at least for the sound) and not much else changed.

Also is the pot labeled "Brightness Limiter" at the back of the TV the same as adjusting the G2 voltage on a more modern flyback? If its the case, it is also maxed out.

What do you guys think?

Thanks!

jstout66
04-28-2016, 10:09 AM
The thing that can be a pain in the ass on a Chromacolor 2 chassis is the modules. Manufactures loved those upright chassis with plug in modules during that era, and as they've aged have become problematic. I would say the XL100 is the worse.
As for your Zenith, carefully remove each module one at a time, and firmly plug them back in. Loose or dirty connections cause about 90% of the problems in those. For your brightness contrast issue, I would say you have a bad or loose video module.
If there is any module you need or want to try, let me know. I have a TON of NOS CC2 modules. I can't guarantee they're good tho. You never know how the caps have held up even being unused for 35+ years.
I hated that tuner and not sure I'll have one. It's on a module as well, and we replaced a ton of them in the 80's. If yours locks in with AFC on you should be fine. You really only need channel 3 or 4 anyway.....
I would have thought cleaning the volume control would have helped. What cleaner did you use?

MRX37
04-28-2016, 10:26 AM
Yeah my CCII was a bit, um, grumpy for lack of a better word. Brightness would flicker sometimes, tapping the top of the TV made the picture jump.

I removed each module, one at a time to avoid confusion, though IIRC they are keyed. I sprayed the contacts with deoxit, cleaned them with a Q tip and plugged the modules back in. Did this for every module. Helped out a lot!

zeno
04-28-2016, 10:43 AM
Check the long resistor packages on the 9-88 & 9-89 modules.
They get cold joints. May be flickering & brite problem.
Be shure the chromatic switch isnt noisy by wiggling it.

Cant see the tuner (s) so pull it/them out. Resolder under the
connectors. Also there is usually a tuner control module,
check the PC there. Clean AFC switch. The tuning pots sometimes
get noisy too.

Audio is probably a bad control especially if its a slider. Try
other cleaners. WD40 can work miracles.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Electronic M
04-28-2016, 11:42 AM
Oh and by the way could a moderator change the title of the thread to "identify" instead of "identified"...it makes my eyes bleed haha

Thanks!

Your eyes should stop bleeding soon....If not see a doctor. :D

Dreamsbeard
04-28-2016, 09:18 PM
Your eyes should stop bleeding soon....If not see a doctor. :D

Haha, they stopped bleeding thanks!

So, as everyone suggested I removed the 9-88 module and the sound module, cleaned contact and put back in place, and I must have done somenthing right because now, I have absolutly no sound Haha. I checked the speaker and its got 14.6 ohms across with the wires unpluged from the module, which I guess is good? What would be the easiest way to check if the module is bad, mesure voltage at the speaker lead?

As for the low brightness I have a theory : could it be that the seperate guns adjustments are too low? The TV has a perfect grayscale, but pots are maybe 25% up, red a little lower.

jstout66, I just might take you up on that offer! Let me run some more test and we'll see what modules might be the culprints, and I might just ask you for those!

BTW I use Nu-Trol from Mg chemicals to clean contacts. It might not be as good as deoxit, but it cost about half the price and usually do the job.

jbattles
04-29-2016, 03:57 AM
adjust the sub bright control. i cant remember if was on the chassis or a small hole around the bright and contrast controls.

jstout66
04-29-2016, 06:41 AM
adjust the sub bright control. i cant remember if was on the chassis or a small hole around the bright and contrast controls.


I forgot about that.... are you adjusting the brightness and contrast with the auto color button off? You'll need to. If it's in auto color, the brightness and contrast would need to be adjusted with a small screw-driver. The controls were usually in the center of the control shaft.

Dreamsbeard
04-29-2016, 07:07 AM
I dont see any sub brightness adjustment anywhere...but there is a "brightness range" on the 9-88 (luminance) module, could it be that?

jstout66
04-29-2016, 08:39 AM
No.....
You won't see the controls.
Before we see if it is that.. turn the "chromatic" button off, and adjust the controls. Do you have proper range? If not, than your video module is most likely bad. If you DO have proper range, than the auto settings are too low.

Dreamsbeard
04-29-2016, 09:16 AM
No.....
You won't see the controls.
Before we see if it is that.. turn the "chromatic" button off, and adjust the controls. Do you have proper range? If not, than your video module is most likely bad. If you DO have proper range, than the auto settings are too low.

Chromatic is off and the brightness is set at 100% and picture at about 80%, I don't think this would be considered proper range.

I will try to remove, clean and reinstal the 9-89 (video module) to see if its only bad contacts.

What do you mean by "I won't see the control" ? Do you mean the sub bright is hidden somewhere and not easily spottable?

Thanks!

zeno
04-29-2016, 04:50 PM
Chromatic switch works like this.
OFF ( not red ) works off the normal controls for brite, color, tint
& picture ( contrast ). You can adjust them by hand.
ON ( RED ) turns all those controls OFF. The 4 controls are hollow
& have a duplicate screwdriver control behind the regular control.
When ON you adjust for best pix. It also turns on ATG
( auto tint guard ) that has nothing to do with your troubles.
For now just run it in off.

If you havent check the long package on the 9-88-? They were a
"check EVERY ONE" for cold solder. Most had cold joints after a few yrs.
The 9-89 probably is OK & almost any problem is related to one
color. IIRC it had just the video out & 3 color out transistors.

We refer to short hand module part numbers. Keep in mind many are
newer versions and have more numbers like 9-88-01, 9-90-02,
150-190-01 etc. You need them to get the RIGHT replacements !

Lastly with good grey scale & the G-2 controls at about 25%
you have a as new or nearly CRT.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Dreamsbeard
05-02-2016, 05:39 PM
Chromatic switch works like this.
OFF ( not red ) works off the normal controls for brite, color, tint
& picture ( contrast ). You can adjust them by hand.
ON ( RED ) turns all those controls OFF. The 4 controls are hollow
& have a duplicate screwdriver control behind the regular control.
When ON you adjust for best pix. It also turns on ATG
( auto tint guard ) that has nothing to do with your troubles.
For now just run it in off.

If you havent check the long package on the 9-88-? They were a
"check EVERY ONE" for cold solder. Most had cold joints after a few yrs.
The 9-89 probably is OK & almost any problem is related to one
color. IIRC it had just the video out & 3 color out transistors.

We refer to short hand module part numbers. Keep in mind many are
newer versions and have more numbers like 9-88-01, 9-90-02,
150-190-01 etc. You need them to get the RIGHT replacements !

Lastly with good grey scale & the G-2 controls at about 25%
you have a as new or nearly CRT.

73 Zeno:smoke:

the 9-88 looks fine, and after letting the TV play a few more hours and adjusting the "brightness range" I would say that this TV has no brightness problem after all. Picture is amazingly good! (after convergence and focus adjust of course)

Now I really need to get that sound sorted out. I powered the TV today and the sound came back, but with that god awful snow sound. Speaker seems fine (reads 15 ohms). Took a picture of the sound board, would it be possible that the volume wire is not pluged in the right place? (look at the sticker on the bottom left corner).

Also , but this is a minor problem, I seem to be at the extreme (no more range) for the focus adjustement. Fortunatly the focus is good enough, but I can go no further on the adjustment and I do not have sufficient range to see the focus go bad after the sweet spot...does it means that I would need a new focus divider?

Edit

Made a video of the problem : https://youtu.be/2rv4x7kawYg

zeno
05-03-2016, 09:40 AM
Focus is almost always the tripler. Check it for cracks,
it may start arcing on the first hot humid day. Also watch for
arcing at CRT socket but you should smell & hear that.

Dont remember any audio problems, odds are 99% its
on the module.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Dreamsbeard
06-27-2016, 08:10 PM
Evening guys,

Just a quick message to let you know I am still searching for a 9-103-04 module to get the sound going on my Zenith. Apart from that and probably the trippler this set is really great and I would very much get it going 100%. So if any of you has a spare 9-103-04 lying somewhere please feel free to PM me.

Zeno, would you be able to tell me what is the trippler part number for my set? I don't see any number on it. And I also didn't see any arcing or anything of the sort , but I would like to get another one just in case because of the slightly out of focus image.

Thanks everyone!

zeno
06-28-2016, 10:01 AM
Evening guys,

Just a quick message to let you know I am still searching for a 9-103-04 module to get the sound going on my Zenith. Apart from that and probably the trippler this set is really great and I would very much get it going 100%. So if any of you has a spare 9-103-04 lying somewhere please feel free to PM me.

Zeno, would you be able to tell me what is the trippler part number for my set? I don't see any number on it. And I also didn't see any arcing or anything of the sort , but I would like to get another one just in case because of the slightly out of focus image.

Thanks everyone!
Should be stamped on it. If OEM part # 212-141-?? most likely.
Most were subbed to 977-36. Be sure to use the right thing.
check with findemkeepem, IIRC he has the sub books for the
modules & maybe tripler. If you cant find part ## let me know
& I will look into it.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Dreamsbeard
06-28-2016, 07:32 PM
Alright, the tripler seems to be 212-145.

Also, how many safety capacitors is this thing supposed to have? I checked the chassis and can only spot the big one under the HOT...but I see those white guys also...I am in trouble?

Electronic M
06-28-2016, 08:44 PM
The white things in the second pic are power resistors...Ceramic (white) safety caps are tubular not rectangular.

Dreamsbeard
06-28-2016, 08:52 PM
The white things in the second pic are power resistors...Ceramic (white) safety caps are tubular not rectangular.

Ok, thanks, I was worried for an instant there. I can't see any white tubular caps then. So there is only 1 safety cap on that chassis? I seems to remember CC1 had more.

Electronic M
06-28-2016, 11:11 PM
CCI (tube/hybrids) had no safety caps. CCII had them and they are either white or orange...White bad. orange good.

Dreamsbeard
06-29-2016, 07:09 AM
CCI (tube/hybrids) had no safety caps. CCII had them and they are either white or orange...White bad. orange good.

Right, I was proprably reffering to early CC2 chassis. Those had I think 4 of them?

Anyway, glad mine already got the orange one.

Found this thread about the matching numbers for my tripler : http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=248180

So any of those replacement tripler would do?

Thanks!

zeno
06-29-2016, 10:11 AM
Ok, thanks, I was worried for an instant there. I can't see any white tubular caps then. So there is only 1 safety cap on that chassis? I seems to remember CC1 had more.
"Safety" cap is under hoz out heat sink. Its a G-line set so you are OK.
History ( IIRC )
C line flat chassis 2 safety caps 22-5001
D & E line flat chassis 5 caps 22-5001
E line upright runs under 401 5 caps
E- line upright runs 401 & higher one big 4 lead cap
from E line on they all use one cap. Any white safety caps
in any of these chassii should be changed to the newer orange drop
style. Be sure to use the right one as there are several different ones.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Dreamsbeard
08-04-2016, 10:31 AM
Morning everyone,

In my search for a replacement sound module for the 9-103-04 in the CCII, I have come across a 9-103-04A. Could anyone tell me if this board is a known replacement for the 9-103-04? Findm? ;)

Thanks!

zeno
08-05-2016, 08:41 AM
Morning everyone,

In my search for a replacement sound module for the 9-103-04 in the CCII, I have come across a 9-103-04A. Could anyone tell me if this board is a known replacement for the 9-103-04? Findm? ;)

Thanks!

Dont know why the A is there but use it. They always change the number
if different. The A may be a minor revision.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Dreamsbeard
08-06-2016, 11:19 AM
Alright, I pluged the module exactly like the the 9-103-04, it worked , but it did not solved the problem.

I found this thread by DHR4683 : http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=265234

That last gasp CCII has the 9-103-04A board (the A is listed has a replacement part for the 9-103-04 in the schematics glued on in inside of the cabinet!), but what I find strange is that the board in this one is not wired the same as mine...shouldn't those board be wired exacly the same in order to work? Maybe mine was tempered with?

Edit : I really have the impression that the volume slider is the problem...could those wear so bad that cleaning could not work?

Thanks!

Electronic M
08-06-2016, 01:18 PM
Sometimes wiring changes were made...It it takes the same power and signals in and spits the correct signals out, that is all the TV cares about.

Slider pots tend to be MUCH less reliable than rotational ones IMO. If you know the pot's resistance try subbing a rotating type and see if that helps.

zeno
08-06-2016, 04:03 PM
Thinking back over CC2's there were several plug ins. They
are marked by white paper or plastic tabs on the chassis contacts.

Speakers ( 2 brown)

A cap that just killed the bass on small speaker models.
( 17 & 19" & maybe low end 23 & 25" )

Volume control (not all). The VC changed a DC level to the IC
NOT the usual coupling cap-VC-coupling cap.

Mute between channels. (? blue-white ?) also raster mute
went to the 9-88-# on these IIRC.

Sliders can get very bad. Try cleaning with WD40.
Unhook everything but SPKR & VC to narrow down.

GL
73 Zeno

Dreamsbeard
08-07-2016, 02:17 PM
Thinking back over CC2's there were several plug ins. They
are marked by white paper or plastic tabs on the chassis contacts.

Speakers ( 2 brown)

A cap that just killed the bass on small speaker models.
( 17 & 19" & maybe low end 23 & 25" )

Volume control (not all). The VC changed a DC level to the IC
NOT the usual coupling cap-VC-coupling cap.

Mute between channels. (? blue-white ?) also raster mute
went to the 9-88-# on these IIRC.

Sliders can get very bad. Try cleaning with WD40.
Unhook everything but SPKR & VC to narrow down.

GL
73 Zeno

I've unhook the "tone"pot from the sound module and the low rumbling and tin can sound is still there, so its not the "tone" pot. Unhooking the VC...well I get no sound (of course).

I tried with another speaker...bad sound still there.

I will get some wd40, but I juiced that sliding pot pretty good with my go to cleaner and it didn't do a thing. Will try the WD40 anyway,

That cap that killed low frequency sure does sound good because its how I would describe the sound : high frequency are there but anything that is in the low spectrum is kind of garbles and muted... I imagine that cap is on the sound module? And if it is, could it be a high enough failure part that both my sound module could be bad?

Dreamsbeard
08-07-2016, 02:24 PM
Sometimes wiring changes were made...It it takes the same power and signals in and spits the correct signals out, that is all the TV cares about.

Slider pots tend to be MUCH less reliable than rotational ones IMO. If you know the pot's resistance try subbing a rotating type and see if that helps.

I think, this might be a good idea, but I have no idea of the sliding pot resistance, can't see anything on the part itself. would anyone have this information on hand? I guess I could short the pot a few seconds just to see...

Thanks!

zeno
08-07-2016, 05:05 PM
Just looked at the photo. Looks like this has wires for
the VC & probably audio mute between channels or tone.
Does it have a tone control ? Anyhows on the IF strip
it shows where some of the wires go, check the layout
chart also & be sure every things where it belongs.
Looks like it has an oval SPKR so no bass cut cap.

I will see if I got the manual but my squaw is on vacation &
I just bought her a new car so she wants to go places, not
fix TV's !!! I will get to it though........

BTW Analog meters are best for some tests & alignments.
If you got one unhook the VC & see if it gives smooth ops
across its range. The value should be printed on it. Zenith
used heavy US made sliders but they still sucked like
all others compaired to regular pots.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Jon A.
08-08-2016, 12:26 AM
Dont know why the A is there but use it. They always change the number
if different. The A may be a minor revision.

73 Zeno:smoke:
Seems there were many revisions. I have another whose box is marked 9-103-04-R. The "R" does not appear on the module.

Both came from that bargain basement stash you pointed out a while back.

wkand
08-08-2016, 06:08 PM
Rather than replace the module, do you have a Sam's for the set that might give you DC voltages around the audio IC in your pic?

Are there separate discrete transistors for audio IF, or are all functions built into that IC?

Another thought is look up that IC by number online, which should give clues as to the expected voltages and waveforms around that IC. If a DC voltage is off, either a resistor drifting high, or a leaking /shorted cap might be the culprit.

Is the IC getting hot?

Also, check the inputs to the module. The problem may not be the sound module at all. I'm thinking there will be sound "takeoff" point coming from the video IF, but I am generalizing and not as familiar as others with 70s SS sets.

There are not that many parts on the audio module. Can you check for ESR on the electros, as well as resistor values?

Your cleaner spraying of the volume pot should have changed the sound (even if only slightly) if it were the problem. Still, they are very problematic...

Good luck! 😀

Dreamsbeard
08-13-2016, 11:41 AM
Rather than replace the module, do you have a Sam's for the set that might give you DC voltages around the audio IC in your pic?

Are there separate discrete transistors for audio IF, or are all functions built into that IC?

Another thought is look up that IC by number online, which should give clues as to the expected voltages and waveforms around that IC. If a DC voltage is off, either a resistor drifting high, or a leaking /shorted cap might be the culprit.

Is the IC getting hot?

Also, check the inputs to the module. The problem may not be the sound module at all. I'm thinking there will be sound "takeoff" point coming from the video IF, but I am generalizing and not as familiar as others with 70s SS sets.

There are not that many parts on the audio module. Can you check for ESR on the electros, as well as resistor values?

Your cleaner spraying of the volume pot should have changed the sound (even if only slightly) if it were the problem. Still, they are very problematic...

Good luck! 😀

Well I interchanged the sound module with the one JonA sent me and it has produce no change whatsoever. So I GUESS it has to be the volume sliding pot. Will take it a look at it before doing anything else.

Dreamsbeard
10-01-2016, 12:31 PM
Just looked at the photo. Looks like this has wires for
the VC & probably audio mute between channels or tone.
Does it have a tone control ? Anyhows on the IF strip
it shows where some of the wires go, check the layout
chart also & be sure every things where it belongs.
Looks like it has an oval SPKR so no bass cut cap.

I will see if I got the manual but my squaw is on vacation &
I just bought her a new car so she wants to go places, not
fix TV's !!! I will get to it though........

BTW Analog meters are best for some tests & alignments.
If you got one unhook the VC & see if it gives smooth ops
across its range. The value should be printed on it. Zenith
used heavy US made sliders but they still sucked like
all others compaired to regular pots.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Well finally got around to spray that thing with WD40. Didn't work. I also checked if it was giving smooth operation all the way with my multimeter (unfortunately I only got an el cheapo digital one). Pot SEEMS to give smooth operation but I am unsure.

I read 0 - 75k ohms on that pot, Zeno does that sound about right to you?

If so, will try to substitute with a rotary one just to see.

Thanks!

zeno
10-01-2016, 06:34 PM
75K probably OK but seems like a high value 2 me.
Try hanging a different speaker on it also, could
be the voice coil is stuck. Unplug the in set SPKR for test,
use almost any SPKR for the test.........

73 Zeno:smoke:
LFOD !