View Full Version : 1960s vintage 9" GE B & W Portable TV has no Picture


Captainclock
07-05-2015, 02:59 PM
Hello Everyone today I had received from a friend of mine from church a 1960s vintage General Electric 9" Portable Black and White Television Set that when I got it home to test it out I got perfect audio but no picture, and from what I could see through the vent holes on the side of the unit most of the tubes that were visible through the vents were glowing like they were supposed to be, and from what I saw online on some YouTube videos about vintage television repair that if the video amp or the vertical or horizontal amp tubes are blown there isn't going to be a picture so I wonder if it might be a bad video amp tube or a bad vertical or horizontal amp tube inside the TV, or could the TV tube perhaps be blown? Although I thought that if a picture tube blew that there would be black sooty looking spots on the inside of the screen which there aren't any to be seen on the screen.

Any suggestions as to go about restoring this wonderful piece of history?

Pics are coming later when I have access to my camera.

radiotvnut
07-05-2015, 05:59 PM
There are many things that can cause a dark screen/no picture condition. The first thing I'd do is check for the presence of HV at the anode connector of the CRT. Be careful because there are many thousands of volts here and the CRT can hold a charge. A quick and dirty method to determine if HV is present is to draw an arc with a screwdriver. For a more accurate test, you meed a high voltage probe that will tell you exactly how much HV is getting to the CRT.

Captainclock
07-05-2015, 06:05 PM
There are many things that can cause a dark screen/no picture condition. The first thing I'd do is check for the presence of HV at the anode connector of the CRT. Be careful because there are many thousands of volts here and the CRT can hold a charge. A quick and dirty method to determine if HV is present is to draw an arc with a screwdriver. For a more accurate test, you meed a high voltage probe that will tell you exactly how much HV is getting to the CRT.

The HV Anode is the little rubber plug at the top of the picture tube towards the front of the tube am I correct?

zeno
07-05-2015, 06:51 PM
Many ways to go depending on equipment & knowledge.

Its not a vert problem. That shrinks the pix top to bottom
sometimes so there is only a line going L-R.

Most video problems on old B&W sets leave you with a lit
screen so probably not that.

No HV will kill the pix. If audio good most likely its the HV
rectifier tube. IIRC its a 1X2 the tube the anode wire goes to.
On GE's the sockets used to corrode, check for green crap
on the tube pins & socket. You can usually detect HV by
putting the back of your hand near the SCREEN, you will feel
the static pulling on your hairs. BTW the socket can give you a shock
when off. The cap on the other end is safe when off.

A bad CRT is also possable. Run the set for a while in a room
with NO light. If you see a very dark image its probably a bad CRT.

Beyond that post the model # ( stamped on back).
Chassis # ( look on tube chart) and maybe a screen shot of
the chassis & a lot of us will try to help.

73 Zeno:smoke:

73 Zeno:smoke:

Captainclock
07-05-2015, 07:22 PM
Many ways to go depending on equipment & knowledge.

Its not a vert problem. That shrinks the pix top to bottom
sometimes so there is only a line going L-R.

Most video problems on old B&W sets leave you with a lit
screen so probably not that.

No HV will kill the pix. If audio good most likely its the HV
rectifier tube. IIRC its a 1X2 the tube the anode wire goes to.
On GE's the sockets used to corrode, check for green crap
on the tube pins & socket. You can usually detect HV by
putting the back of your hand near the SCREEN, you will feel
the static pulling on your hairs. BTW the socket can give you a shock
when off. The cap on the other end is safe when off.

A bad CRT is also possable. Run the set for a while in a room
with NO light. If you see a very dark image its probably a bad CRT.

Beyond that post the model # ( stamped on back).
Chassis # ( look on tube chart) and maybe a screen shot of
the chassis & a lot of us will try to help.

73 Zeno:smoke:

73 Zeno:smoke:

Well The Model Number of the TV is 9T001

Chassis number unsure as the tube chart is inside the cabinet and I had a heck of a time getting the cabinet apart the first time around, and I forgot to look for the chassis number when I did have it apart.

When I powered it on when I got home from church to see how it worked the audio was perfect minus a little buzzing noise that would come on when you turned the volume control but then would disappear when you jiggled the volume control slightly (more than likely a dirty pot), but as for the picture it was completely blank not even a slight hint of a picture (which you said if the picture tube was bad there would of been a slight picture still and mine has no picture at all which is why I think its not a bad picture tube but something else associated with the video circuit e.g. bad video amp tube.)

Captainclock
07-05-2015, 07:37 PM
Update: I did some research and actually found out that my TV was from 1957 so actually my initial post title is inaccurate because I just assumed that the TV set was from the 1960s because of the TV having the built in 14-83 UHF tuner on it because I just assumed that all TVs from the 1950s just had VHF only because of what I had seen on most 1950s vintage TV sets I've seen at flea markets and antique malls and garage sales but now I know that apparently 14-83 UHF had been around as early as the mid 1950s at least (seeing as I had also seen an old Philco Predicta Television at the antique mall recently for sale that also had a 14-83 UHF tuner on it and the Predictas were only made in the 1950s from what I had heard and read so apparently what I had once known about 1950s TVs has changed...

rca2000
07-05-2015, 07:48 PM
This set is OLDER than 1960 It is in sams 359-7, which makes it about 1957 or so. I was thihnking it was that little set they sold in about 1963 or so...with the wrap-around chassis...but it is a LOT older. GE"s answer to the 8" 8PT-7030 style RCA SET.


You need to know if the FILAMENT Of the CRT is lit. I think this is a hot chassis set so it VERY likely has to be lit for the other tubes to be on.

I agree....it sounds as if you have lost HV.

It is POSSIBLE...that you have a low B+ problem. Low B+ MIGHT give you enough powert for the SOUND to work...but NOT the deflection and HV.

it is ALSO possible....that you have lost BOOST voltage. This is a voltage that is produced by yoke action and it is then ADDED to the main B+ voltage. Sort of hard to explain...but it helps to run the H-out and V out ckts AND voltages for the CRT. if it is LOW or GONE.. you will NOT get HV or very LOW hV and no raster.

Like others have said...do the 'static test" on the front of the tube and see if you get any "static cling" from the tube. Good static from it meant likely good HV.

bgadow
07-05-2015, 07:55 PM
Dumb question but, have you adjusted both the brightness and contrast controls? If it has an AGC I have also seen cases where misadjusting that can kill the raster.

Captainclock
07-05-2015, 08:24 PM
This set is OLDER than 1960 It is in sams 359-7, which makes it about 1957 or so. I was thihnking it was that little set they sold in about 1963 or so...with the wrap-around chassis...but it is a LOT older. GE"s answer to the 8" 8PT-7030 style RCA SET.


You need to know if the FILAMENT Of the CRT is lit. I think this is a hot chassis set so it VERY likely has to be lit for the other tubes to be on.

I agree....it sounds as if you have lost HV.

It is POSSIBLE...that you have a low B+ problem. Low B+ MIGHT give you enough powert for the SOUND to work...but NOT the deflection and HV.

it is ALSO possible....that you have lost BOOST voltage. This is a voltage that is produced by yoke action and it is then ADDED to the main B+ voltage. Sort of hard to explain...but it helps to run the H-out and V out ckts AND voltages for the CRT. if it is LOW or GONE.. you will NOT get HV or very LOW hV and no raster.

Like others have said...do the 'static test" on the front of the tube and see if you get any "static cling" from the tube. Good static from it meant likely good HV.

My previous post before your post explained that I had figured out that the TV was indeed from 1957 and that the reason why I had guessed 1960s was because of the fact that the TV had 14-83 UHF built into the set which I thought wasn't available until the 1960s but apparently it was available in the 1950s as well, which for this TV to have the 14-83 UHF built in like it does means it must of been a higher end unit because I've seen "high end" console TVs from the same time period that only had the VHF only Tuner on them and yet this is a 9" portable TV that has UHF built into it (although apparently according to the tube location guide inside the cabinet this TV was available as a "VHF Only" model as well because it has a tube listed for the UHF tuner that says "tube used in UHF models only" which tells me this must of been GE's higher end model of this particular series of TV Sets.)

And Yes you are right, this is an "AA5" Series Strung set which tells me that like you said if I was seeing tubes glowing in this set that means that the Picture tube's filaments were glowing but apparently my H-V is probably low enough that its giving me sound but no picture/raster, so I will try the "static check" on the picture tube face when I power it up again and see if it has any H-V or not, and if no H-V then I guess I'll have to check the H-V Rectifier tube to see if its weak and or check the electrolytics to see if they may need replacement.

rca2000
07-05-2015, 08:31 PM
Just REMEMBER...the HV rect tube will NOT really show a visible filamanet....so you need to REPLACE it with as known-good one--to rule it out.

Captainclock
07-05-2015, 08:42 PM
Just REMEMBER...the HV rect tube will NOT really show a visible filamanet....so you need to REPLACE it with as known-good one--to rule it out.

I believe I have a few of those tubes laying around in my tube stash which I don't have access to right now as I am at my parents house currently and my tubes are at my house that I live in, I'm staying the night at my parents house because I have to see a doctor in Indianapolis, Indiana which is a 3 1/2 hour drive from where I live and my mom and sister are taking me down there. anyways I probably won't get to actually do any serious servicing of the TV Set until tomorrow evening or Tuesday.

Anyways I hope I can get this TV up and running because I would love to use this TV in my office/workshop with a converter box just as a cool piece of functioning television history.

Eric H
07-05-2015, 09:11 PM
The HV Anode is the little rubber plug at the top of the picture tube towards the front of the tube am I correct?

The HV goes in the base on that particular CRT, you can check for HV by touching the cap of the 1X2 with a insulated, ungrounded screwdriver, it should draw a small blue arc to air, this won't prove it's getting through the HV Rectifier but at least you'll know if the

The set will need recapped to work properly but before doing that I would try to get the CRT tested, the 9QP4 used in those sets was notoriously bad.

Captainclock
07-05-2015, 09:29 PM
The HV goes in the base on that particular CRT, you can check for HV by touching the cap of the 1X2 with a insulated, ungrounded screwdriver, it should draw a small blue arc to air, this won't prove it's getting through the HV Rectifier but at least you'll know if the

The set will need recapped to work properly but before doing that I would try to get the CRT tested, the 9QP4 used in those sets was notoriously bad.

Well I certainly do not have a picture tube tester/rejuventator, so testing the picture tube is out of the question, but like I said the picture tube doesn't show any signs of being blown (most blown picture tubes I've seen color or black and white usually had a huge black "burn" spot in the middle of the screen, and this picture tube doesn't have any huge "burn" marks in the middle of the screen.)

Don Lindsly
07-05-2015, 10:02 PM
The high voltage rectifier is a 1V2. All the tubes in that TV are single ended, including the CRT.

Check the ion trap position. It could have been moved. The CRT is certainly defective if it is the original and likely very dim, if a replacement.

Captainclock
07-05-2015, 10:33 PM
The high voltage rectifier is a 1V2. All the tubes in that TV are single ended, including the CRT.

Check the ion trap position. It could have been moved. The CRT is certainly defective if it is the original and likely very dim, if a replacement.

OK, well since I don't have a picture tube tester/rejuvenator, how would I go about checking if the picture tube is "bad" or if it was the original or a replacement tube?
The person I got the TV from told me that the TV was used very little before it was put into storage for 40+ years which with that in mind would lead me to think that the picture tube should still be good, and the TV when I had it opened didn't look like it had any repairs made to the set from what I could see, plus the unit had PCBs in it for all of the circuitry and tube sockets which the PCBs showed hardly any heat damage which seemed to confirm my friend's story about it having low hours on the set.

Eric H
07-06-2015, 01:04 AM
Short of testing the tube the only way to find out if it works is to get the chassis working and see if it makes a picture.

First step would be to check for high voltage, since you have audio we can assume the basic power supply is working.

You can still check for HV at the 1V2 using the screwdriver method, you just have to hold it near the connection at the base of the 1V2 where the output of the Flyback connects.

Captainclock
07-06-2015, 05:51 AM
Short of testing the tube the only way to find out if it works is to get the chassis working and see if it makes a picture.

First step would be to check for high voltage, since you have audio we can assume the basic power supply is working.

You can still check for HV at the 1V2 using the screwdriver method, you just have to hold it near the connection at the base of the 1V2 where the output of the Flyback connects.

it seems that's my only option right now, which is to check for H-V.
but the fact that the TV has no picture at all period and someone else on here told me that if the picture tube was "dead" it would still have a faint picture which mine doesn't even have a picture period leads me to think that the picture tube is more than likely still good yet (albeit not 100% after 60+ years) but just that the TV set has either a Low B+ issue or a Low or no High voltage issue.

Gregb
07-06-2015, 08:06 AM
I was just working on a very similar Hotpoint set that uses the same CRT as yours. I have a CT tester and my tube tested good so I went ahead and recapped the set and on first power up I had the same issue. Totally dark screen no matter what and I had good high voltage. All that was wrong was the ion trap needed to be adjusted.

Gregb

dieseljeep
07-06-2015, 09:34 AM
I was just working on a very similar Hotpoint set that uses the same CRT as yours. I have a CT tester and my tube tested good so I went ahead and recapped the set and on first power up I had the same issue. Totally dark screen no matter what and I had good high voltage. All that was wrong was the ion trap needed to be adjusted.

Gregb

The set has a low B+ circuit. There is a large value input electrolytic cap that is probably dried out and lost value. As a result, the set won't produce HV and do much of anything, but hum. A cap pulled from a scrap solid state color set would be close.
The CRT is a blown glass bulb, similar to the 7JP4. As a result, rebuilts were never available. The CRT is probably OK.
The tubes are rather odd-ball type with 300ma heaters. Some types, seemed to only be used in that particular set.

Eric H
07-06-2015, 04:02 PM
That he said the sound was good made me think the B+ is okay, or at least ballpark.
It could still have horizontal oscillator problems keeping it from getting any high voltage, that's why I suggest checking that first. If it has HV and a dark screen then the Ion trap may be misadjusted, the CRT may be bad or it could have video problems.

The 9QP4 was a disaster, GE replaced a ton of them under warranty, the replacements may not have been much better. My own experience with these sets is not good as far as CRT's go, I've had to buy several junkers to get good tubes to fix my better sets.

There is some information on repairing these sets here: http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=91582

And some info on the Tube here: http://www.videokarma.org/archive/index.php/t-52670.html

They are so simple you can replace all the paper tube caps in an hour or so, a little more for the Electrolytics.

I've had to replace the Horizontal AFC Diodes on the ones I've done, they are Selenium and don't hold up.

Captainclock
07-06-2015, 05:24 PM
Well I removed the 1V2 HV Rectifier Tube tested it (along with the rest of the tubes on the set) and everything tested perfectly, and so I put the tubes back in and plugged the tv set in and powered it on and sure enough after about 2 minutes I had a picture and it was a pretty decent picture at that (so I'm guessing the picture tube is still good), the only issue I saw was that the the height was not correct (it was too short the picture was relative to the actual picture tube size) and I tried adjusting the height adjustments and what not but the picture wouldn't fill the whole screen for some reason, which I'm wondering if the vertical Amp tube is about shot in this case.

Any ideas?

Like I said when I finally got picture it was pretty bright and seemed like it had plenty of life in it yet (the filaments were glowing nice and bright yet) just the height was out of wack and couldn't be made right with the adjuster on the back.

EDIT: The TV is now back to stage one where I had no picture (well actually it has picture but its barely visible) and it started doing this when I put the cover back on, but when the cover was off it was working just fine (minus the height being off) so I wonder if the 1V2 tube has a short in it that didn't show up on my tube tester, either that or the tube is actually just about shot but my tube tester for some reason thought it was still good.

Olorin67
07-06-2015, 07:08 PM
sounds like if you got a picture at all, the main systems of the set are all functional, but maybe some portions are out of whack due to old caps and maybe other parts like resistors that havnt aged well. Re-capping any electrolyitcs and paper caps would be a good place to start. The set is working enough that you may be able to see gradual improvment as you replace suspect parts. If you read through the other threads mentioned above, that will give you ideas of parts that frequently require replacement in this set. Check the controls, too, a dirty brightness or contrast pot can make troubleshooting interesting... and the more aging parts you replace, the more reliable the set will be in use, hopefully.

Captainclock
07-06-2015, 07:27 PM
sounds like if you got a picture at all, the main systems of the set are all functional, but maybe some portions are out of whack due to old caps and maybe other parts like resistors that havnt aged well. Re-capping any electrolyitcs and paper caps would be a good place to start. The set is working enough that you may be able to see gradual improvment as you replace suspect parts. If you read through the other threads mentioned above, that will give you ideas of parts that frequently require replacement in this set. Check the controls, too, a dirty brightness or contrast pot can make troubleshooting interesting... and the more aging parts you replace, the more reliable the set will be in use, hopefully.

That's what I was just thinking, probably bad electrolytics and paper caps and some bad resistors as well, which should be pretty easy to replace in this set since it has PCBs instead of actual metal chassises to work with, I also noticed that in one of the bottom vent holes I saw a pretty large selenium rectifier that could also be causing some issues...

Olorin67
07-06-2015, 07:33 PM
Yes, doesn't sound like there's much wrong with the set apart from aged components. Start with the more likely offenders, and measure resistors as you go.

Captainclock
07-06-2015, 07:41 PM
Yes, doesn't sound like there's much wrong with the set apart from aged components. Start with the more likely offenders, and measure resistors as you go.

That's probably what I will do, the large Can caps will be tricky to take care of because they're sitting in funky locations in the cabinet as for the paper caps (which are plastic cased "good-all" caps which are notorious for going bad due to age) are going to be easier to replace and should be easily replaceable with mylar or polyester caps. the resistors should also be easily replaceable as I have a large stash of 1/4 and 1/2 watt resistors which appear to be what's mostly inside the TV. I don't have a service manual for the TV so maybe someone could dig one up for me and send me a copy. :-)

rca2000
07-06-2015, 08:09 PM
What # H-out and damper tubes does this set use?

zeno
07-06-2015, 08:38 PM
Works then dont....... Do some light tapping around.
Probably a bad tube or PC connection. It would be better
to get it somewhat running 1st. That way you can test
as you go when recapping. Two big advantages:
If you make a mistake there isnt much to check. Also if
you change a cap & it makes a big change for the good
you file it in your mind for future use.

73 Zeno:smoke:

dieseljeep
07-06-2015, 09:36 PM
What # H-out and damper tubes does this set use?

Horiz out is a 18A5 octal base and the damper is a 17H3, IIRC, a 9 pin miniuture The 18A5 is similar to a 25AV5.
It seems that this is the only set, that used these tubes. Two other strange tubes are 10C8 and 12CT8.
Leave it to GE, as they owned their own tube plant. :D

Gregb
07-06-2015, 09:40 PM
By the sounds of it that set and my Hotpoint are one in the same. Those are the tubes my Hotpoint uses as well. I just have a few finishing touches and mine will be done.

Gregb

Captainclock
07-06-2015, 10:02 PM
Horiz out is a 18A5 octal base and the damper is a 17H3, IIRC, a 9 pin miniuture The 18A5 is similar to a 25AV5.
It seems that this is the only set, that used these tubes. Two other strange tubes are 10C8 and 12CT8.
Leave it to GE, as they owned their own tube plant. :D

Yeah and I tested all of the tubes in the unit except for a couple of the tubes and they all tested excellent on my emissions tube tester which means that the tubes apparently have low hours on them. All of the tubes inside this TV set are all the original GE Tubes (except for the 1V2 rectifier tube which i swapped out for a NOS Motorola 1V2 tube I had laying around in my tube stash.)

Captainclock
07-06-2015, 10:04 PM
By the sounds of it that set and my Hotpoint are one in the same. Those are the tubes my Hotpoint uses as well. I just have a few finishing touches and mine will be done.

Gregb

That makes sense because Hotpoint was owned by GE for many years before it became a Subsidiary of Whirlpool in the 1980s.

Captainclock
07-06-2015, 10:17 PM
Works then dont....... Do some light tapping around.
Probably a bad tube or PC connection. It would be better
to get it somewhat running 1st. That way you can test
as you go when recapping. Two big advantages:
If you make a mistake there isnt much to check. Also if
you change a cap & it makes a big change for the good
you file it in your mind for future use.

73 Zeno:smoke:

Well what's weird is that the pitcure tube is definitely working as the filaments are glowing nice and bright like they're supposed to be, but for some reason the tube just isn't wanting to develop a nice bright and even picture for some reason which tells me that somehow the B+ just isn't high enough to bring the picture tube up to its proper brightness and screen size, either that or the H-V circuitry is in need of a recap as well as the B+ circuitry.

I've heard mentioned in here several times about an "ion trap" which can get moved and cause trouble with the picture tube, my question is, what the heck is the "ion trap" and where is it at in the TV, and how does one go about readjusting the "ion trap"?

Another question that's slightly off topic but not really, and has to do with the tuner on this TV and others like it I've seen from the same time period, and that is, why is it that a lowly portable tabletop TV set like mine and or like the old Philco Predictas have built-in UHF Tuners in them but yet every single full-sized "high end" console I've seen from the same time period only had a VHF Only tuner in them with no built-in UHF Tuner in them?
Was there something about the portable/tabletop units that made them easier to install built-in UHF Tuners in them than the giant Consoles? Or was it something else? I just think its weird that a considerably lower-end TV would have Higher-end features than a Higher-end TV of the day would have.

zeno
07-07-2015, 05:29 AM
The sets probably were sold in a UHF area or maybe
were latter converted with kits.
Some places like Hartford Conn. were most UHF. Between
NYC, Providence & Boston there was only #3 & #8 left.
All the newer stations had to go on UHF.
So sets sold there usually had UHF tuners. In 1964 all
sets built to be sold in the US had to get UHF.
An interesting early UHF promo for Zenith UHF here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lu5jqXaHRE

I will leave the ion trap to others. I know but its not my era
so I may get something wrong !

73 Zeno:smoke:

dieseljeep
07-07-2015, 09:20 AM
By the sounds of it that set and my Hotpoint are one in the same. Those are the tubes my Hotpoint uses as well. I just have a few finishing touches and mine will be done.

Gregb

GE seemed to market some sets under the Hotpoint brand from 1957 to 1960. The model numbers were also the same.
There was a Hotpoint plant in West Milwaukee, dishwasher and disposal products. It was next to the GE med systems complex.
AFAIK, GE never sold the Hotpoint line. They were still being built in Louisville, KY and probably Mexico.
There was news that GE was selling their appliance line to Electrolux. IDK if it ever transpired. :scratch2:

dieseljeep
07-07-2015, 09:38 AM
The sets probably were sold in a UHF area or maybe
were latter converted with kits.
Some places like Hartford Conn. were most UHF. Between
NYC, Providence & Boston there was only #3 & #8 left.
All the newer stations had to go on UHF.
So sets sold there usually had UHF tuners. In 1964 all
sets built to be sold in the US had to get UHF.
An interesting early UHF promo for Zenith UHF here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lu5jqXaHRE

I will leave the ion trap to others. I know but its not my era
so I may get something wrong !

73 Zeno:smoke:
Milwaukee has been a UHF town from early on, but I never saw a 9" GE or a 8" RCA with a UHF tuner. I know the 9T Ge was available with UHF, per the service manual. It used a small transformer to power the heater for the 6AF4, so it was probably factory.
BTW, if the ion trap was never moved, don't move it for now, until you establish reliable high voltage. If it has to be removed for disassembly, mark the trap and the CRT neck with a Sharpie marker so it can be replaced in the exact same position. Once the set is working well, you can try to adjust it for maximum brightness, but it might not be needed. Just a bit CW or CCW.

Captainclock
07-07-2015, 09:59 AM
Milwaukee has been a UHF town from early on, but I never saw a 9" GE or a 8" RCA with a UHF tuner. I know the 9T Ge was available with UHF, per the service manual. It used a small transformer to power the heater for the 6AF4, so it was probably factory.
BTW, if the ion trap was never moved, don't move it for now, until you establish reliable high voltage. If it has to be removed for disassembly, mark the trap and the CRT neck with a Sharpie marker so it can be replaced in the exact same position. Once the set is working well, you can try to adjust it for maximum brightness, but it might not be needed. Just a bit CW or CCW.

OK, well for right now I'll definitely try to replace any of the old capacitors in the unit first and see if that helps any with bringing back the picture any or helping with making the H-V section more reliable as it seems that the H-V section of the TV is somehow affected by me hitting the TV's cabinet when its assembled which is more than likely due to failing caps, in the TV.

What do you suggest as far as Capacitors to use in this TV set? I'm wondering because I know these sets used sometimes 1kV capacitors in them and 1kV caps aren't readily available anymore not even on most of your antique electronics restoration websites and even if they are they're quite spendy.

Eric H
07-07-2015, 10:48 AM
I just use the 630 volt yellow caps from http://justradios.com
I don't recall any caps over 600 volts in this set but there may be one or two.

The Electrolytic can can be replaced by individual caps, they can be relocated closer to their connection point if it makes it easier.

The Horizontal AFC diode looks like a tiny electrolytic on the PC board, I've replaced it using a pair of common Silicon diodes.

Carefully remove the connector from the base of the CRT and check the pin where the HV goes in, it'll be the pin that's all by itself, sometimes it corrodes or the solder goes bad.

Captainclock
07-11-2015, 10:42 AM
I just use the 630 volt yellow caps from http://justradios.com
I don't recall any caps over 600 volts in this set but there may be one or two.

The Electrolytic can can be replaced by individual caps, they can be relocated closer to their connection point if it makes it easier.

The Horizontal AFC diode looks like a tiny electrolytic on the PC board, I've replaced it using a pair of common Silicon diodes.

Carefully remove the connector from the base of the CRT and check the pin where the HV goes in, it'll be the pin that's all by itself, sometimes it corrodes or the solder goes bad.

OK well I have some pictures now of the Unit and of the picture its giving off, maybe there's a clue as to what's wrong with it and what it needs by looking at the picture, I didn't have anything hooked up to the TV set when I took the picture it was just white noise.

zeno
07-11-2015, 01:52 PM
It has a vertical problem or the vert is way out of
adjustment. Start with the vert osc / output tubes.
It may be all in one tube. Do not believe the checker 100%.
They lie almost as much as a politician. If not a tube recap JUST
the vertical one cap at a time followed by a test. Dont change
disc caps unless cracked or burned. They almost never go.
Also check resistor values.

I cant tell but if you have snow & a waterfall sound from audio
it will probably work to some extent. At this point the CRT seems fair,
probably as good as you will find for what it is.

73 Zeno:smoke:

OvenMaster
07-12-2015, 06:03 PM
There was news that GE was selling their appliance line to Electrolux. IDK if it ever transpired. :scratch2:
Uncle Sam is holding this deal up for antitrust reasons. If it went through, there'd only be two major appliance makers in the US.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/ge-unit-sale-to-electrolux-said-to-be-opposed-by-antitrust-staff-ibky1vil
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/01/us-electrolux-general-electric-idUSKCN0PB5RM20150701

Captainclock
07-12-2015, 07:27 PM
It has a vertical problem or the vert is way out of
adjustment. Start with the vert osc / output tubes.
It may be all in one tube. Do not believe the checker 100%.
They lie almost as much as a politician. If not a tube recap JUST
the vertical one cap at a time followed by a test. Dont change
disc caps unless cracked or burned. They almost never go.
Also check resistor values.

I cant tell but if you have snow & a waterfall sound from audio
it will probably work to some extent. At this point the CRT seems fair,
probably as good as you will find for what it is.

73 Zeno:smoke:

It does have the "snow and waterfall" sound coming out of the speakers and I had a converter box hooked up to it and it was receiving audio and video loud and clear just the picture was scrunched like you see in the picture and the vertical and horizontal hold was being screwy.
For some reason when I would try to adjust the vertical or horizontal hold knobs it would darken the screen if I went too far to the left or right with the knobs (it was more pronounced with the Horizontal Hold Adjustment than the Vertical Hold Adjustment.)

Captainclock
07-12-2015, 07:37 PM
Uncle Sam is holding this deal up for antitrust reasons. If it went through, there'd only be two major appliance makers in the US.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-07-01/ge-unit-sale-to-electrolux-said-to-be-opposed-by-antitrust-staff-ibky1vil
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/01/us-electrolux-general-electric-idUSKCN0PB5RM20150701

Yeah I heard about that as well, but seeing as corporate mergers and takeovers is what made this country "great" in the first place (that's why we don't have any American TV or Radio manufacturers left anymore because of Richard Nixon and his "foreign trade" agreements he signed into law back in the 1970s which paved the way for foreign companies and investors to come in and basically buy out every single American Manufacturing company and send their manufacturing overseas...) Its kind of one of those things that if Congress and the house of representatives would of stood up for the people and stood up against Nixon and his wreckless trade policies I think our country would of still had its own respectable manufacturing sector and we wouldn't of become such an import dependant country like we are now.

Captainclock
07-15-2015, 07:36 PM
Well I've got a general List of all of the caps I need for the TV's recap job, it needs about 10 capacitors replaced of which 7 of the caps are Cornell-Dubilier's Equivalent to the Good-All caps that were used in the late 50s early 60s PCB tube radios made by companies like Arvin and GE where the Caps are Radial Lead Caps mounted to the circuit board and the rest are either electrolytic or some other brand of capacitor that looks like a Good-All Cap except its brown and not black...

Now I'm just wondering how I might get the HV/Horizontal Amp/Vertical Amp board out to recap it, its attached to the base of the TV with a few screws but I don't want to accidentally break some wires loose...

Any ideas?

DavGoodlin
07-16-2015, 08:11 AM
My Hotpoint version of this set has not been on the bench yet. It is disassembled and I will look at it.
I hate to recap in tight quarters and find that freeing a PC board enough that you have full access to both sides for soldering and the ever-important inspection afterward works best.

This sounds like alot of trouble but it pays off when you have full access to test resistors replace parts.
GE sets, especially this one, have the BARE MINIMUM of parts to comprise a functioning circuit, so every part counts!

You may want to take some photos of the PCB first.
Then get some electrician's numbered cloth strips or "Brady tags" or similar by Thomas & Betts.
These are one one-inch long by 1/8" wide, white with about 6 black numbers across the length.

You take one of the numbers and put it on the PCB next to the stake on the PCB and wrap the rest around a wire.
Take another picture and start cutting wires enough to get it free.

Captainclock
07-16-2015, 11:58 PM
My Hotpoint version of this set has not been on the bench yet. It is disassembled and I will look at it.
I hate to recap in tight quarters and find that freeing a PC board enough that you have full access to both sides for soldering and the ever-important inspection afterward works best.

This sounds like alot of trouble but it pays off when you have full access to test resistors replace parts.
GE sets, especially this one, have the BARE MINIMUM of parts to comprise a functioning circuit, so every part counts!

You may want to take some photos of the PCB first.
Then get some electrician's numbered cloth strips or "Brady tags" or similar by Thomas & Betts.
These are one one-inch long by 1/8" wide, white with about 6 black numbers across the length.

You take one of the numbers and put it on the PCB next to the stake on the PCB and wrap the rest around a wire.
Take another picture and start cutting wires enough to get it free.

Sounds like a lot of work, especially the marking and cutting of wires to get the PCB out to service it with my luck I would either cut too little or too much or too much wire and wouldn't be able to wire it back together again and I've never heard of "Brady Tags" before...

Eric H
07-17-2015, 02:39 AM
I recapped one of these some time ago but couldn't remember the details so I just went out and looked at a spare chassis I have in the garage.

After seeing it I remember just recapping it without removing anything except the CRT, there's plenty of room on the back side of the board.

I would take some good pictures before starting just in case a wire does get broken but really one of the easiest sets to work on in my opinion since there's so little to it.

Captainclock
07-17-2015, 03:08 AM
I recapped one of these some time ago but couldn't remember the details so I just went out and looked at a spare chassis I have in the garage.

After seeing it I remember just recapping it without removing anything except the CRT, there's plenty of room on the back side of the board.

I would take some good pictures before starting just in case a wire does get broken but really one of the easiest sets to work on in my opinion since there's so little to it.

That's what I was thinking just remove the CRT but that looks to be a little tricky because the screws that hold the tube into place on the front panel are kind of inaccessible which with my screw drivers I have will make it kind of tough to get into the already barely accessible space.

Also one thing that's kind of crappy is that one of the retention springs had a broken mounting screw hole so its being held into place by just a little bit of what remained of the mounting screw hole and the mounting screw.

Now I would like to know what would be a good replacement for the original radial leaded capacitors that are in this TV? I'm asking because the original caps were radial leaded capacitors with the leads spaced apart at about an 1/8" whereas the modern Radial lead Capacitors have the leads spaced out at about 3/4" apart which is too wide for the original holes. I could just get axial leaded capacitors and mount them on end but that would look kind of silly and also it might be a little dangerous without having some sort of spaghetti wrapping on the exposed lead coming out of the top of the capacitor going to the board.

Electronic M
07-17-2015, 10:29 PM
If you are talking paper caps I just mount the axial on end (keep the end tight-ish with the board to prevent flexing), and bend the other end over. I don't use heat-shrink tubing unless there is something (likely loose) near by that seems likely to short to it....there is no point in adding it for safety in most sets, since usually there are enough exposed high-ish voltage terminals and points already there by design that it would be like barricading the door while leaving the window wide open, and anyone dumb enough to get zapped by them likely had no business inside the back of a powered up TV in the first place...

I'll occasionally bend axial leads under using needle nose pliers and my fingers so that the leads match the foot print of the original, but that is uncommon, and usually done to match some instinctual aesthetic rather than for a functional purpose.

Eric H
07-17-2015, 10:48 PM
Leave the CRT attached to the front piece, there are a couple of sliding latches that hold the front to the bottom, if you release them you can separate them and slide the tube and mask forward out of the yoke.

The posts that hold the CRT to the face are fragile, I've repaired them with Epoxy and using a slightly longer screw to extend past the break, of course not too long or it will poke out the front!

Captainclock
07-17-2015, 11:33 PM
Leave the CRT attached to the front piece, there are a couple of sliding latches that hold the front to the bottom, if you release them you can separate them and slide the tube and mask forward out of the yoke.

The posts that hold the CRT to the face are fragile, I've repaired them with Epoxy and using a slightly longer screw to extend past the break, of course not too long or it will poke out the front!

That's funny because that's exactly the same way mine was repaired it had the post repaired with epoxy and had a larger sloted bit screw installed into the hole but then some how that broke again then the retention spring was just sitting on top of the picture tube. so then I just reattached the retention spring with the screw into what was remaining of the mounting post and its holding pretty well.

anyways I'm still wanting to know what kinds of capacitors to use in place of the old radial leaded "good-all" style caps in the unit because the modern radial lead caps don't look like the original ones anymore as far as mounting wise goes because the leads are too far apart.

Below is a picture I took of the unit since I took all the tubes out and reseated them, notice how its definitely got a nice bright picture now and the only issue with it now is that the bottom of the screen is folded onto itself and doesn't go all the way to the bottom of the screen, I've also noticed that there are some small horizontal lines that go across the screen that are barely noticable in certain lighting scenes.

Gregb
07-18-2015, 11:41 PM
Just use those little yellow axial lead caps and bend the one lead over so it goes down into the hole in the board. Worked fine for me! I did also find a few resistors that were way out of tolerance so check them as well. This is all really easy to do with the CRT removed.
I am just in the process of putting my Hotpoint back together and will have a picture or two tomorrow, it works really good.

Gregb

Captainclock
07-19-2015, 05:02 PM
Just use those little yellow axial lead caps and bend the one lead over so it goes down into the hole in the board. Worked fine for me! I did also find a few resistors that were way out of tolerance so check them as well. This is all really easy to do with the CRT removed.
I am just in the process of putting my Hotpoint back together and will have a picture or two tomorrow, it works really good.

Gregb

OK Sweet, I'm looking forward to seeing what yours looks like so I know what to expect out of mine when I get mine finished. :yes: :thmbsp:

and I kind of guessed that's the kind of capacitors I would of have to use but I wasn't sure, which is why I asked. :yes:

My car is going to need a $500 shock and strut repair so I'm going to have to save up for that by mowing my parents lawn sometimes during the summer. :tears:

So anyways Hopefully I can still get some of my spending money from my mom that I can use to get the capacitors I need for this TV to get it up and running again. Because the guy at my church who gave it to me would like to know when I get it going because I guess it was the TV his parents used when he was growing up and he would love to see a picture or a video of it running again. :)

Captainclock
10-19-2015, 04:02 PM
Well I finally was able to order some capacitors for this TV but now I just need to know which capacitors I should replace first considering the issues I was having (vertical issues), especially since I don't have the service manual for this TV it would be nice to know which capacitors in this tv are involved in the vertical circuitry, so I can replace those first since that's what's having the most issues right now.

Also I took a look at the tube in this set and noticed that it doesn't have a HV Anode anywhere on the picture tube, just wires coming off of the little assembly on the neck and that's it, I also took a look at the tube and found a manufacture date code, the code was 6024 (which if I'm reading it right would be the 24th week of 1960) but then I saw a tag on the top of the tube that said Rev. 4-63, so the tube in this set is definitely not original but it is a GE Tube though so it might of been a replacement done under warranty. :scratch2: :yes:

Thanks for your help.

Levi

Electronic M
10-19-2015, 05:41 PM
Look at the tubes with vert. labeled next to them in the set's tube chart and the vertical output transformer.....All caps connected even through resistors should be changed. There will be a lytic connected to the cathode of the vert output (most likely the problem) and one filtering the B+ connection of the output transformer, change them.

In a monochrome TV you need to know the generic block diagram of circuits that applies to any monochrome TV....Most apparent problems are easily correlated to their given 1-3 (most can be tracked to only 1) circuits, then it becomes a matter of replacing parts in that circuit. You should know this, and not need us to tell you, if you plan to service TVs.

Eric H
10-19-2015, 06:29 PM
The HV goes into the base of that tube. The pin is off by itself if I recall right.

Captainclock
10-19-2015, 07:10 PM
The HV goes into the base of that tube. The pin is off by itself if I recall right.

What I mean is that this picture tube doesn't have the 2nd anode suction cup thingy that most CRT TVs have is what I mean.

Anyways This TV has a 4 MFD 50 Volt Electrolytic Capacitor in the circuit and I was wondering if a 6.8 MFD 50 Volt electrolytic capacitor would be a good replacement for that capacitor, I'm curious because I don't have any 4.7 MFD 50 Volt Electrolytics in my capacitor stash and the only 4.7 MFD 50 Volt Electrolytic capacitor that Radio Shack has is an axial leaded one which I wouldn't think that using an axial leaded Electrolytic capacitor with one side exposed would be very safe without having some sort of shrink wraping over it so that it doesn't arc against something else in the TV.

Eric H
10-19-2015, 07:30 PM
What I mean is that this picture tube doesn't have the 2nd anode suction cup thingy that most CRT TVs have is what I mean.



I realize that, I was just pointing out it doesn't have one on the side of the tube because they ran the High Voltage through a pin on the base of the tube instead.

The 6.8Mf cap is probably close enough, it's more than 50% over but depending on what it's for it probably wont matter much.

Captainclock
10-19-2015, 07:56 PM
I realize that, I was just pointing out it doesn't have one on the side of the tube because they ran the High Voltage through a pin on the base of the tube instead.

The 6.8Mf cap is probably close enough, it's more than 50% over but depending on what it's for it probably wont matter much.

That's why it would be nice to have a service manual for this TV, but I don't want to pay $20 for a Sam's Photofact for this thing because that's kind of rediculous to pay that much for a simple 4 sheet document that's over 50 years old and that's probably a very poor scan at that.

Also you never answered my previously asked question concerning where to start first when recapping this TV because I just ordered the caps for this TV but I would like to know where to start in the chain of things (which caps are for the vertical out stage where I'm having the main problems right now) and where are the HV/Horizontal out stage caps at?

Also the really weird valued .0039 MFD 400 Volt capacitor I had ordered a .0047 MFD capacitor to replace it, is that ok? I'm just wondering because there were no other values that came close to that funky valued cap at AES except the .0047 MFD.

Eric H
10-19-2015, 09:37 PM
If you know the number you can get a Sams from John Kendall for $9.00 http://vintage-electronics.com/
If you don't know the number he can look it up by model number.
eBay is another place to get one for cheap.

As Electronic_M explained above you could find out which tube is the vertical output from the tube chart and start there, one of the Electrolytics is probably also part of the vertical circuit so that would be a good one to start with.
The set is so simple it can be completely recapped in an hour or two anyhow.

The .0039 is probably close enough, depending on what it does, if it's part of an oscillator circuit (Vert or Horiz) it might throw it far enough off frequency that it can't be brought back in sync with the adjustments given, you won't know until you try.

Captainclock
10-19-2015, 10:50 PM
If you know the number you can get a Sams from John Kendall for $9.00 http://vintage-electronics.com/
If you don't know the number he can look it up by model number.
eBay is another place to get one for cheap.

As Electronic_M explained above you could find out which tube is the vertical output from the tube chart and start there, one of the Electrolytics is probably also part of the vertical circuit so that would be a good one to start with.
The set is so simple it can be completely recapped in an hour or two anyhow.

The .0039 is probably close enough, depending on what it does, if it's part of an oscillator circuit (Vert or Horiz) it might throw it far enough off frequency that it can't be brought back in sync with the adjustments given, you won't know until you try.

The original Capacitor was the .0039 MFD and the one I had ordered to replace it was the .0047 MFD all the new capacitors i ordered were 630 volts so hopefully that should be ok. anyways I was actually thinking of trying to find a free download of the service manual, because I really don't have a whole lot of money to throw around at ordering stuff like service manuals and what not as my only source of income currently is Disability checks from Social Security because of my Autism and I'm currently unemployed and have been trying to find a decent paying job for almost a year now without any luck, and the money that I get from disability is handled by my mother, so the only spending money I get is $30 every two weeks and I can't just randomly blow that $30 all at once on just buying parts and service manuals for my repair projects because my mom would be upset at me if I did that.

Eric H
10-20-2015, 12:01 AM
I probably have the Sams for it somewhere around here, If I can find it I'll scan it for you, I can send a copy to the ETF too so it'll be available in the future.

Eric H
10-20-2015, 01:12 AM
Here's a link to the Schematic, Right click and "Save As"

http://vintagetvsets.com/schem/359-7%209T001.pdf

Captainclock
10-20-2015, 02:21 AM
Here's a link to the Schematic, Right click and "Save As"

http://vintagetvsets.com/schem/359-7%209T001.pdf

Thanks very much for the copy of the sams, I have now figured out that the reason why I'm having issues with the bottom of the picture being folded over on itself and not have very good vertical linearity is because possibly the 10C8 Vertical Output tube might be either very weak or bad, there are two 10C8 tubes in this TV the other one of which goes to the Audio Amp stage, which works fine so I might try substituting the Audio Amp stage tube for the vertical output tube and see if that makes a difference with the vertical linearity in the picture if it does then I know that the 10C8 tube is what's causing my problems and not necessarily capacitors (although I'll probably replace the capacitors anyways since I got them just to be on the safe side).

EDIT: Iwas able to swap the Audio Output tube and the Vertical output tubes which are both 10C8 tubes and I was able to almost fill the entire screen except for the very top of the screen and that was with the height and vertical linearity controls jacked up about 3/4 of the way up.
So it seems that now I know that the TV's issue is a combination of a weak 10C8 tube and some bad capacitors in the vertical section. Which like I said I had already ordered some new capacitors for the TV and should be getting them by Thursday.

Captainclock
10-22-2015, 01:13 PM
Ok So I got my capacitors today and I just finished replacing the old capacitors and I went to test the TV out and for some reason the TV is giving me a very poor picture that's nothing but a small line in the middle of the screen that rotates in a circle (kind of like an analog tape counter except a little faster) and the screen goes completely dark at either end of the brightness and contrast controls but is visible in the middle of the controls, I also have to mention that a couple of traces lifted when I removed the old capacitors (the traces that the capacitors soldered into lifted but didn't break). I have a photo of what the TV is currently doing, that I've posted below.

Electronic M
10-22-2015, 03:44 PM
Looks like your B+ is low. Focus on the PS lytics.

Captainclock
10-22-2015, 04:54 PM
Looks like your B+ is low. Focus on the PS lytics.

Ok but why would of the power supply caps suddenly gone out when they were working fine for the most part before I recapped the TV? Because before the TV was competely filled except the bottom part which was folded up on itself but now its not even completely filled and the image on the screen rolls around like a can on the ground or like a cement mixer truck, and the brightness and contrast controls are being screwy.

Electronic M
10-22-2015, 05:01 PM
You did already recap the power supply?....I assumed you had not. It still looks like low B+ to me. Shrunken H and V (to that extent) usually indicate low B+. Low B+ can be caused by things other than lytics too....Check your B+ against the schematic.

The rolling is probably synch....Which also will go screwy if B+ dips too low.....A bad PS will usually affect (not always noticably) most to all other circuits.

Findm-Keepm
10-22-2015, 06:24 PM
It still looks like low B+ to me. Shrunken H and V (to that extent) usually indicate low B+. Low B+ can be caused by things other than lytics too....Check your B+ against the schematic.

The rolling is probably synch....Which also will go screwy if B+ dips too low.....A bad PS will usually affect (not always noticably) most to all other circuits.

I agree 100% - looks like an open input filter in the B+/doubler.

B+ can cap(s) (100-160uF typical) need replacing.

Captainclock
10-22-2015, 10:41 PM
There's two power supply caps in this TV Which one should I go after? There's one that's at the top of the chassis next to the tuner module that's a 300 MFD 150 Volt Electrolytic can cap that goes to the yoke of the picture tube, I'm assuming this is the one you're referring to that's screwing things up?

There's also one on the bottom that's a 60 MFD 300 Volt and 200 MFD 150 Volt multisection can that I'm assuming also might be causing some issues?

would one be able to get capacitors of these ratings over at places like AES? Because these voltage and microfarad ratings are a lot higher than the ones most of your regular tube radios or guitar amps use.

EDIT: This power supply in this TV is going to be a problem to recap, because I was just looking over at mouser and they didn't have any capacitors of the values that I need for this TV, I also looked at AES and they had 2 of the 3 capacitors I needed but the third one which is apparently from what you guys were saying is the most critical one is the one they didn't have which was the 300 MFD 150 Volts (which I realize that now a days its going to be 160 volts but they still only went up to 220 MFD and that was their cut off). Apparently Mouser did have the capacitors in the values I needed but they wanted betweem $15 and $20 for them and I don't have that kind of money to fork over for those capacitors.

Electronic M
10-22-2015, 11:41 PM
300 is part of the antiquated parts number system. Get a 330uF*, and if they don't have 160V, then look for 200V and 250V (higher voltage rating don't hurt). Some Tivo boxes had 330uF 200V caps in them so they have to be offering that value at 160V or higher for a better price. (EDIT: don't be too picky about brand or physical size/packaging either)

* 10% difference from original capacitance value is WELL within tolerance of the original so it will be fine.

Captainclock
10-23-2015, 12:04 AM
300 is part of the antiquated parts number system. Get a 330uF*, and if they don't have 160V, then look for 200V and 250V (higher voltage rating don't hurt). Some Tivo boxes had 330uF 200V caps in them so they have to be offering that value at 160V or higher for a better price. (EDIT: don't be too picky about brand or physical size/packaging either)

* 10% difference from original capacitance value is WELL within tolerance of the original so it will be fine.

Well I was looking under the panasonics, nichicons, united chemicons, cornel dubiliers and vishay/spragues and only vishay/sprague had the values I needed no one else carried them for some reason or another.

but I'll look again under the 330 MFD values and the 200 and 250 Volt caps.

EDIT: I adjusted the search parameters over at Mouser for the more modern capacitor ratings and it came back with results so apparently what I'll need to order are:

68 MFD 350 V
330 MFD 160 Volts
220 MFD 160 Volts

So which brand do you suggest that I go with? Nichicon, Panasonic, or United Chemicon?

Also how would I go about mounting the new capacitors in this TV since the old ones were cans mounted in brackets?

Captainclock
10-23-2015, 09:55 AM
So I think I may have figured out why this TV isn't working right but not sure. I noticed that when I tested my 1V2 H.V. Rectifer tube, that it glowed from the filaments in the tube tester, but when its in circuit in the TV it doesn't glow, and I'm wondering how it is that the TV is able to work properly without the HV Rectifier not glowing or anything, isn't the tube supposed to glow and isn't that how the tube is supposed to function?
And if the tube not glowing in circuit isn't normal then is that maybe the reason why I have low or no B+ voltage in the TV?

MRX37
10-23-2015, 10:17 AM
Not sure, but if you have contact cleaner, try spraying it in the tube socket, insert and remove the tube a few times, leave it to dry for maybe an hour, plug the tube in, power the set on and see if there's a change.

If not, then check the soldering connections for the socket.

Gregb
10-23-2015, 10:38 AM
I know on my set I had noticed the high voltage lead was all covered with I assume corona dope or something like that. I had measured very low HV and I could hear some arcing but could not see anything. I changed the lead out for some new stuff and the HV came right up to where it was supposed to be and got a nice bright picture.
I also cannot see the filament glow on the 1V2 when in the operation but due to the correct HV I can safely say it is working properly.

Gregb

Captainclock
10-23-2015, 11:24 AM
Not sure, but if you have contact cleaner, try spraying it in the tube socket, insert and remove the tube a few times, leave it to dry for maybe an hour, plug the tube in, power the set on and see if there's a change.

If not, then check the soldering connections for the socket.

OK I'll definitely check those two things out.

Captainclock
10-23-2015, 11:31 AM
I know on my set I had noticed the high voltage lead was all covered with I assume corona dope or something like that. I had measured very low HV and I could hear some arcing but could not see anything. I changed the lead out for some new stuff and the HV came right up to where it was supposed to be and got a nice bright picture.
I also cannot see the filament glow on the 1V2 when in the operation but due to the correct HV I can safely say it is working properly.

Gregb

What kind of wire did you use to replace the HV Lead with? Would regular Heater Cord Wire work? Because I noticed that my HV lead wire has some sort of coating on it as well (some sort of bluish/green crap covering the end of the HV wire lead going to the HV tube socket.)
Also would a replacement coupling capacitor that was too far above the original capacitor's rating cause my issues I'm having? I'm asking because this TV used a coupling capacitor that was a really funky value of .0039 MFD and I replaced it with a .0047 MFD capacitor and the capacitor was rated at +/- 10% and the value I chose to replace that .0039 MFD Capacitor was more than 10% above the original rated capacitor's rating and I'm wondering if I should of maybe left that .0039 MFD cap in place or replaced it with a .0033 MFD Capacitor (which would of been within 10% of the original specs).

Eric H
10-23-2015, 11:47 AM
The 1v2 gets it's heater voltage from a winding on the flyback, if the B+ is low then the high voltage is low, hence the heater voltage to the 1V2 will be low.

You have a picture on the screen so the 1V2 is getting enough heater voltage to work, the picture being shrunken and distorted indicates a power supply problem.

Possibly the Selenium Rectifier has gone bad, do you have a volt meter? You will need to start checking voltages, starting with the B+.

When things like this happen it's usually caused by something that got hooked up wrong (been there done that) I would check your work carefully, make sure there are no Solder bridges between circuits.

Captainclock
10-23-2015, 11:52 AM
The 1v2 gets it's heater voltage from a winding on the flyback, if the B+ is low then the high voltage is low, hence the heater voltage to the 1V2 will be low.

You have a picture on the screen so the 1V2 is getting enough heater voltage to work, the picture being shrunken and distorted indicates a power supply problem.

Possibly the Selenium Rectifier has gone bad, do you have a volt meter? You will need to start checking voltages, starting with the B+.

OK but I did find a problem that will need to be addressed with the HV wiring, and that is that the connector for the HV wire going into the Picture tube socket is broken so how would I go about repairing that issue? Also Where would I check the B+ voltage at, and would I check the B+ voltage with the set on? And if it is the selenium rectifier that's gone bad what kind of silicon rectifier would I use to replace it with? Would a 1N4007 work? or would I need something different?

Captainclock
10-23-2015, 12:19 PM
Well I tested the Selenium Rectifier in both diode mode and with the continuity test mode and it failed both tests so now to figure out what kind of silicone diode to use in place of that old Selenium rectifier.

Dubis7
10-23-2015, 12:33 PM
Well I tested the Selenium Rectifier in both diode mode and with the continuity test mode and it failed both tests so now to figure out what kind of silicone diode to use in place of that old Selenium rectifier.

I've heard 1N4001 is generally more than acceptable.

Captainclock
10-23-2015, 12:46 PM
I've heard 1N4001 is generally more than acceptable.

Service manual shows a 1N1007 which is a germanium type rectifier which I would assume that the silicone equivalent to that would be the 1N4007 but not sure, anyways I'll have to look into the 1N4001 as well. but also I do need to figure out how to repair the HV pin on the picture tube socket because its broken it was apparently previously broken but was being held together in the picture tube socket but then when I went to take the back of the picture tube socket apart to check the HV pin to see if it needed to be cleaned or something and went to pull it out of the retaining hole that's when I figured out that the HV pin socket was broken. any ideas as to how to fix it? would just soldering it back together be good enough?

MRX37
10-23-2015, 12:47 PM
Well I tested the Selenium Rectifier in both diode mode and with the continuity test mode and it failed both tests so now to figure out what kind of silicone diode to use in place of that old Selenium rectifier.

Something i learned on my Sylvana... that rectifier might not be bad.

Here, this post from my thread may be useful to you:
http://www.videokarma.org/showpost.php?p=3145785&postcount=83

tom.j.fla
10-23-2015, 12:57 PM
Hi, 1N4001 is rated at 50 piv(peak inverse volts) minimum would be 1N4004 rated at 400 piv. ckeck the mouser & allied sites for Belden wire rated for 10 kv, or if you have a color set that non repairable its focus lead if long enough will work as well. On 70 & 90 degree delta gun crts it's on pin 9 & on RCA type inline gun crts on pin 1 tripotenal crts on pin 3 will be wire rated for 15kv. All the best tom.

Captainclock
10-25-2015, 12:36 AM
Hi, 1N4001 is rated at 50 piv(peak inverse volts) minimum would be 1N4004 rated at 400 piv. ckeck the mouser & allied sites for Belden wire rated for 10 kv, or if you have a color set that non repairable its focus lead if long enough will work as well. On 70 & 90 degree delta gun crts it's on pin 9 & on RCA type inline gun crts on pin 1 tripotenal crts on pin 3 will be wire rated for 15kv. All the best tom.

OK, well the only issue is that I don't have any TVs that are duds yet... so I may have to check your suggestion about the Belden Wire rated for 10kV.

But the only problem is, I think the wire itself is fine, I think what my problem was, was that my tube socket's HV pin connector was broken and thus had an intermittent connection and so because of that I had low HV and B+ to the picture tube, so I need to figure out a way to fix the said connector.

Eric H
10-25-2015, 01:27 AM
I think what my problem was, was that my tube socket's HV pin connector was broken and thus had an intermittent connection and so because of that I had low HV and B+ to the picture tube, so I need to figure out a way to fix the said connector.


I took a look at a spare chassis I have and it has a CRT socket with a Phenolic cover that is held on with two small screws, if your set uses this type of socket then repairing it is simple, just remove the cover and resolder the wire to the pin. If the used the one piece type socket on yours then you will have to find a way to remove the pin connector and reattach it.

Use great care when plugging and unplugging the socket from the tube, the HV pin on the tube sometimes gets corroded and brittle on these because of the high voltage running through it. A little WD-40 rubbed on the pins can make it slide on & off easier.

Captainclock
10-25-2015, 06:05 AM
I took a look at a spare chassis I have and it has a CRT socket with a Phenolic cover that is held on with two small screws, if your set uses this type of socket then repairing it is simple, just remove the cover and resolder the wire to the pin. If the used the one piece type socket on yours then you will have to find a way to remove the pin connector and reattach it.

Use great care when plugging and unplugging the socket from the tube, the HV pin on the tube sometimes gets corroded and brittle on these because of the high voltage running through it. A little WD-40 rubbed on the pins can make it slide on & off easier.

It does have the phoenolic end cap held in place with two small screws which is how I actually discovered that the HV conncetion was broken, which is more than likely why the TV was acting up and wasn't getting the B+ and HV that it was supposed to be getting.

Electronic M
10-25-2015, 12:42 PM
It does have the phoenolic end cap held in place with two small screws which is how I actually discovered that the HV conncetion was broken, which is more than likely why the TV was acting up and wasn't getting the B+ and HV that it was supposed to be getting.

A broken HV connection will only reduce effective HV at the CRT....It should either roughly maintain load on the flyback (perhaps the most power hungry stage in the set) or reduce the load on the flyback. An unloaded fly consumes LESS power so the B+ should either be unaffected or INCREASE slightly (from reduced load) if the HV connection opens like that.....You do realize HV and B+ are two completely separate power sources in a TV right? The power transformer derived or rectified power line derived 150V to 475V B+ found in all tube TV receivers is considered LOW VOLTAGE in TV parlance. The 3KV to 50KV found on the second anode connection of the CRT (usually, but not always flyback derived) is called HV (High Voltage).

You still most likely still have a low B+ issue. If not, then....In most TVs there is also a roughly1000V B+ BOOST rail that is flyback derived (often from the damper in B&W sets, often from it's own diode in color sets).....The BOOST line usually feeds the vertical stage (sometimes CRT screen grid, and other things too).....So if the horizontal is out of whack bad enough to kill or reduce the boost it will affect the vertical, but usually not close to the degree that your screen shots show.

Captainclock
10-27-2015, 12:14 AM
A broken HV connection will only reduce effective HV at the CRT....It should either roughly maintain load on the flyback (perhaps the most power hungry stage in the set) or reduce the load on the flyback. An unloaded fly consumes LESS power so the B+ should either be unaffected or INCREASE slightly (from reduced load) if the HV connection opens like that.....You do realize HV and B+ are two completely separate power sources in a TV right? The power transformer derived or rectified power line derived 150V to 475V B+ found in all tube TV receivers is considered LOW VOLTAGE in TV parlance. The 3KV to 50KV found on the second anode connection of the CRT (usually, but not always flyback derived) is called HV (High Voltage).

You still most likely still have a low B+ issue. If not, then....In most TVs there is also a roughly1000V B+ BOOST rail that is flyback derived (often from the damper in B&W sets, often from it's own diode in color sets).....The BOOST line usually feeds the vertical stage (sometimes CRT screen grid, and other things too).....So if the horizontal is out of whack bad enough to kill or reduce the boost it will affect the vertical, but usually not close to the degree that your screen shots show.

Well I'm not sure if I tested in the right spot for it or not but I had tested the 300MFD 150 Volt power supply capacitor with the TV on to check the B+ voltage and what I got was 147 Volts or so which I'm not sure if that's correct or not because like I said I'm not even sure if that was the correct spot for testing B+ voltage or not but as far as voltage goes for the capacitor itself its still within specs yet (the capacitor in question is a 150 Volt capacitor and it measured 147 under load which is still within specs yet which means that the capacitor is apparently still good yet).

Electronic M
10-27-2015, 01:21 AM
Most sets have more than two B+ rails (the lower voltage ones are usually derived from the higher ones with a voltage divider). You need a SCHEMATIC to know where to measure and how much voltage should be at such point....Otherwise you are going to just spin your wheels guessing. Until you (or any would be TV restorer for that matter) have at least 10 tube TV restos under your belt it is usually futile to troubleshoot a set WITHOUT a schematic (even with our help), and even those of us seasoned enough to do most work blind sometimes have check a schematic to know how aspects of a given set should be.

Check with libraries in major cities in your region, and libraries at technical colleges/vocational schools....Odds are one of them has a free sam's library, and for the cost of photocopying you can get the service data. There is such a place 15 minutes from my house (they only keep mid 60's and later sam's), and a more complete library in Milwaukee about a mile from my old College.

147V on a 150V rated cap seems high....If that point is at the doubler and there is a resistor or choke between that cap and the circuits loading the B+, which is going open then it would explain that odd measurement and low B+.....If your set uses a doubler it could also signify the other doubler cap failing.

Captainclock
10-27-2015, 01:55 AM
Most sets have more than two B+ rails (the lower voltage ones are usually derived from the higher ones with a voltage divider). You need a SCHEMATIC to know where to measure and how much voltage should be at such point....Otherwise you are going to just spin your wheels guessing. Until you (or any would be TV restorer for that matter) have at least 10 tube TV restos under your belt it is usually futile to troubleshoot a set WITHOUT a schematic (even with our help), and even those of us seasoned enough to do most work blind sometimes have check a schematic to know how aspects of a given set should be.

Check with libraries in major cities in your region, and libraries at technical colleges/vocational schools....Odds are one of them has a free sam's library, and for the cost of photocopying you can get the service data. There is such a place 15 minutes from my house (they only keep mid 60's and later sam's), and a more complete library in Milwaukee about a mile from my old College.

147V on a 150V rated cap seems high....If that point is at the doubler and there is a resistor or choke between that cap and the circuits loading the B+, which is going open then it would explain that odd measurement and low B+.....If your set uses a doubler it could also signify the other doubler cap failing.

I actually do have a schematic/sam's for this TV that was provided to me by another member here, bu the schematic is split up between 4 pages and I can't see whether or not there's anything about B+ voltage measurements and what they should be, they have tube pin voltage and resistance readings given but nothing for B+ voltage readings. I tried to upload the copy of the Sams I had for this TV but it was too big for me to upload on here.

I saw something about the boost voltage on the schematic and its coming off of the HV transformer and the Boost Voltage is supposed to be 250 Volts, but I'm not sure if that has anything to do with my TV and its issues or not.

Also the Public Libraries near me threw out anything considered old and obsolete (including service manuals, records, audio tapes, video cassette tapes, etc.) years ago so I don't think it would be possible for me to find any Sam's Photofacts in any of the public libraries near me, plus the library system near me is about 30 years old (with most of the library branches being built in the mid to late 1980s) the only library that's old enough to of been able to of held anything like say Service manuals is the main branch of our public library system which is in town and that library's building was built in the 1920s, and it was the only library in Elkhart, Indiana up until the 1980s when they decided to make a city wide library system that featured several different branch buildings located across Elkhart for each township, and then the original library in town was named the main branch of the Elkhart Public Library, and then all of the sub-branches are named after the township or suburb they are located in (e.g. Jefferson Branch, Dunlap Branch, Osolo Branch, etc. and they were all built in the mid to late 1980s so not even old enough to have a sam's or a rider's service manual archive).

So yeah I kind of have to rely on online sources or other people on here for my service manuals that I don't have if I happen to get a project to work on that happens to be covered in a service manual that I don't own a physical copy of.

Eric H
10-27-2015, 08:27 AM
The Sams is now posted on the ETF Site.

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/ge_9t001_sams_359-7.pdf

Captainclock
10-27-2015, 08:45 AM
The Sams is now posted on the ETF Site.

http://www.earlytelevision.org/pdf/ge_9t001_sams_359-7.pdf

oK Thanks, although I already have it now from when you posted the link to it earlier in the thread, the only problem with it is that the schematic is divided up between 4 pages and because of that its hard for me to figure out where the various B+ voltage values are for the tv so I can try and figure out whether or not the TV's B+ Voltages are lower than they should be which if they are it would point to some bad power supply caps and or a bad selenium rectifier (which either way I would have to replace either one of them).

Eric H
10-27-2015, 10:43 AM
Do you have a Printer? If so print it out and tape the schematic parts together.
The schematic shows 140 and 145 volt sources from the power supply, checking the plate voltage at the Damper or the Audio Output tube should tell you if they are working since one is fed from the 140 and the other the 145.

Captainclock
10-27-2015, 01:48 PM
Do you have a Printer? If so print it out and tape the schematic parts together.
The schematic shows 140 and 145 volt sources from the power supply, checking the plate voltage at the Damper or the Audio Output tube should tell you if they are working since one is fed from the 140 and the other the 145.

yes I do have a printer, I'll see if I can print out the service manual and just set the parts of the schematic next to each other in their respective order and see if I can make any sense of it that way.