View Full Version : WHY so few "other brands' left out there?( Admiral, Sylvania , Philco, etc)


rca2000
08-06-2014, 06:56 PM
In the tv collecting realm--we all seem to come up with plenty of RCA and Zenith color sets, from the Hybrid days. Every so often a sylvania or magnavox will turn up too..but I have NOT heard ANY mention of any hybrid or even SS 25 inch admirals or ohilco sets. I have had a COUPLE of these sets..back in the day (the 1980's..) NOT ONE since then.

I was at my garage today and picked up the manuals to the admiral M20 and M25 sets. I have had one of each. the M20 has 7 tubes--the M25 is SS. Both Have tripler Hv.

The M25 I found in an alley, on the porch of a house and it was given to me--fall of 1983. It had a pretty bad westinghouse tube--and after milking all of the life possible out of that one..i replaced it with a Zenith chromacolor tube I had It worked VERY well, for several years. Then, it developd a "sync problem" i could not figure out, having no manual for it and misled by a "tech" to believe it had bad caps in the power supply...I was unable to fix it (at the time). later--the same chassis live dn i another cabinet--when I got another sync/agc module. had I been told RIGHT...I could have used that set for years more...

The M20 I received in 1981, and was not able to keep it long...I wish i could have.

Now--I want MORE of them. But they NEVER seem to show up. Why?

Is it because that Pix tube was a westinghouse and GARBAGE? THIS is my guess--the tubes were no good--sending them to an early grave.

Of course--I relaize there were far FEWER of the than the RCA's and Zeniths..but STILL...we should see one "here and there"...but we do NOT.

Jon A.
08-06-2014, 07:33 PM
I didn't know that there are fewer RCAs and Zeniths than the other brands mentioned. I would certainly like to have examples of most others mentioned. I was concentrating mostly on Space Command remotes for my collection, but now I just grab whatever takes my fancy, i.e. NOS ultrasonic remotes for Hitachi and Admiral sets, the latter having a full RAT keypad and packaged with a sensor as models with the RA suffix are easily converted according to the box.

Anyway, maybe since RCA and Zenith "started it all" in regards to color sets, they're the ones that turn up most frequently online? Most people are clueless about old TVs, perhaps those big names just ring a bell for them like nothing else. Here in Canada there's no telling what you'll find, different sets just pop up at random, the emphasis in my area is usually late 80s/early 90s RCA consoles with the CTC157.

Brand doesn't matter a whole lot to me, I like several different makes, but I just prefer Zenith as it seems less "trendy" than RCA. To be honest, the remote mechanical tuner is what I like best about my flatty, it would just be another 70s set to me without it, but with a far longer-lasting CRT.

rca2000
08-06-2014, 07:41 PM
I didn't know that there are fewer RCAs and Zeniths than the other brands mentioned. I would certainly like to have examples of most others mentioned. I was concentrating mostly on Space Command remotes for my collection, but now I just grab whatever takes my fancy, i.e. NOS ultrasonic remotes for Hitachi and Admiral sets, the latter having a full RAT keypad and packaged with a sensor as models with the RA suffix are easily converted according to the box.

Anyway, maybe since RCA and Zenith "started it all" in regards to color sets, they're the ones that turn up most frequently online? Most people are clueless about old TVs, perhaps those big names just ring a bell for them like nothing else. Here in Canada there's no telling what you'll find, different sets just pop up at random, the emphasis in my area is usually late 80s/early 90s RCA consoles with the CTC157.

Brand doesn't matter a whole lot to me, I like several different makes, but I just prefer Zenith as it seems less "trendy" than RCA. To be honest, the remote mechanical tuner is what I like best about my flatty, it would just be another 70s set to me without it, but with a far longer-lasting CRT.


No...there are few few OTHER brands..than RCA and Zenith sets....and you are right--there are ALWAYS ctc-149-157 sets out there, plentiful and cheap...but I am NOT interested. I don't have room for them, I want the "good stuff"..

Jon A.
08-06-2014, 07:44 PM
Same here, the two identical 157s I had are now furniture. Picked them up before I had any good stuff of my own.

zenith2134
08-06-2014, 07:55 PM
I passed up an Admiral Solar-color console from 1970 not too long ago. Had no way to haul it at the time. But yes, I have a large collection of SAMS manuals and there are many obscure brands listed which I have NEVER seen in my life.

Sandy G
08-06-2014, 08:00 PM
Funny... In the "Small" TVs right after the War, it seems like the Admirals, Motorolas, Pilots, even my beloved "Porthole" Zeniths seem to be more common than RCAs... Seemed like, as recently as 10 years ago, Eprey was FULL of the 7" Bakelite Admirals, & the 3" Pilots were common as pig tracks..

radiotvnut
08-07-2014, 12:24 AM
In over 25 years of finding TV's, I've never had an Admiral console color TV or any type and I can count on one hand the number of Admiral color portables that I've had (one 14" hybrid portable and two '79 model 19" solid state portables and one of those was a rebadged Ward's Airline).

As far as tube stuff, RCA, Magnavox and Zenith were my most common finds, with a few sprinklings from GE, Motorola, Sylvania, Sears, and Western Auto. The Zenith's and RCA's often remained in service until the early '90's and the Magnavox models stayed around because they had nice cabinets; but, they probably had not actually worked in ages.

I think the main reason you don't see these other brands is because they didn't stand the test of time and were dumped at an early age.

ChrisW6ATV
08-07-2014, 12:48 AM
I think part of it may just be that many brands did not have the wide distribution and/or service networks of RCA and maybe Zenith. Admiral, for example, was a big brand in the early days of black-and-white TV, but did they ever have much of a presence in the console color-TV market? We all talk of sets lasting for years and the visits by TV repairmen, but was that really true of portable TV sets through the tube years?

Jon A.
08-07-2014, 07:41 AM
This one's pretty cool and unusual, it's one of those Quasar "Electronic Satellite" remote sets probably from the late 70s. Price is pretty good in my opinion. Penney's sold them as well, I have a remote so branded.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291206388333

If those 7" B&W sets are so common, later-model color sets other than Zenith and RCA ought to be coming out of the woodwork not too long from now.

andy
08-07-2014, 09:58 AM
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zeno
08-07-2014, 10:06 AM
Its mostly a matter of numbers.
Between RCA & Zenith they made abt half the TV's sold from the
60's through 80's. I dont remember the numbers but they
were followed by GE, Sears, Maggy, Sylvania then the rest.

Quality. RCA & Zenith were the expensive sets. You did get what
you paid for. They just held up longer & were kept longer.
Maggy also was but it was the cabinet not the guts that cost $$.

Easy to deal with. Both were the easiest to get parts & service help
for. Most worked on more of them than anything else so it
became 2nd nature. So repairs were done on them that most
sets would be junked for, it just made life easier so more survived.

How you count them. Sears was Sears. Not counted as a Toshiba,
Warwick or Sanyo. GE made a ton of private label also. RCA & Zenith didnt
private label til late. First RCA prob. early 80's for Radio Shack.
Zenith was abt late 80's in a Capehart.

73 Zeno:smoke:

radiotvnut
08-07-2014, 11:39 AM
I think RCA made some TV's for JC Penny during the '70's. I remember seeing a CTC68 upright modular chassis XL100 that was badged as JC Penny. I've seen some Wards TV's that were rebadged Sylvania, Admiral, and Sharp. Wells-Gardner built a good many TV's for W.T. Grant, Western Auto, and JC Penny. Western Auto also used GE, Sharp, Admiral, and Midland for TV suppliers.

rca2000
08-07-2014, 03:00 PM
In over 25 years of finding TV's, I've never had an Admiral console color TV or any type and I can count on one hand the number of Admiral color portables that I've had (one 14" hybrid portable and two '79 model 19" solid state portables and one of those was a rebadged Ward's Airline).

As far as tube stuff, RCA, Magnavox and Zenith were my most common finds, with a few sprinklings from GE, Motorola, Sylvania, Sears, and Western Auto. The Zenith's and RCA's often remained in service until the early '90's and the Magnavox models stayed around because they had nice cabinets; but, they probably had not actually worked in ages.

I think the main reason you don't see these other brands is because they didn't stand the test of time and were dumped at an early age.

My M25 in 1983 was also an airline labelled set--but the chassis had the "M25" stamp right on it. Obviously an admiral. Original, bad tube was a westinghouse SHITTY tube--otherwise...I would have NEVER gotten it, and it would have ran quite a while longer for the original owner.

I WILL say THIS about the "M" series Admiral sets:: They sure were FUSED well!! I think my set had 3 fuses...and that M20 hybrid had SIX fuses from what I see in the manual !!

rca2000
08-07-2014, 03:12 PM
Back "in the day".(1980's), I saw a number of the "other brands". I had ONE of those 73 or so model Philco SS sets--with SCR deflection..the ONLY one I have EVER seen. I had a few of the GE "M" series sets, MA, MB MC. IIRC..they liked to kill triplers. I ran across probably a dozen admiral sets, mostly SS, both console and portable. M10, M16, M25, M50 (iirc). I fixed--then sold, most of them. Still have a YM GE set with digital tuning, 1979. Also one EM digital set--1981. No real prize--a "griplet" set.

I had ONE of the "Teknika" console sets, IIRC_-and it ALSO had SCR defleection, 1987 or 1988.

And in that day--I ALSO ran across a few of the 13" Zenith chromacolor II sets. Fixed ALL of them, IIRC.

jstout66
08-07-2014, 05:54 PM
I agree with most of what's already been posted. People were brand loyal back in the day, and a brand of television was more of a "status" symbol. In the Midwest area where I grew up, it was almost all Zenith or RCA. In the mid-late 70's my hometown of 2000, had us ( A Zenith dealer) * we also sold GTE Philcos as a secondary line. We had the RCA Magnavox dealer and a Sylvania dealer. In that era, on house calls, or walk in's, it was mainly RCA & Magnavox sets we were seeing. We had a handful of Quasars, a few Truetones and a few Coronados ( we also had a Western Auto and Gambles) I think I only remember 1 Admiral that we serviced.
Even living in Omaha now, when I go to estate sales, I only see RCA and Zenith consoles. In the mid 90's my now ex-wife had a late 70's / early 80's Admiral console, which was the "newest" Admiral I have seen in years, and I've never seen another one. That set had a weak picture tube, and we replaced that set with my console, which was a Quasar ( rebadged Panasonic) which ended up having a short lived picture tube.

sampson159
08-07-2014, 07:26 PM
we saw sylvanias 5 to 1 over all other sets here.now,not one in sight.saw many philcos,sears,etc.admirals were scarce as were jc penny and box store brands.

KentTeffeteller
08-15-2014, 08:29 AM
Some things to know. RCA and Zenith were much better on making sets which stood the test of time, and they had parts and service support networks which were the best of the breed. Their sets aged better. Motorola, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvania, and the lesser brands along with GE tended to be less well supported when they got older or were less reliable with age. So, that accounts for the high presence of those brands. Magnavox made pretty fine sets, but their parts network was horrible to independent service shops who had to buy their Magnavox parts from Magnavox Home Entertainment Centers (some of those dealers would not sell parts over the counter). Philco also practiced similar tactics which many servicers highly disliked. And that also meant some sets got replaced sooner than planned.

rca2000
08-15-2014, 08:15 PM
So...THAT is why there seems to be LESS chance of me coming up with a Philco 3CS or 3CY80 or 90 chassis (the one philco had with SCR deflection I think the ONLY one they had like that, 1973 or 74)..or an Admiral M20, M24 or M25 set, or a Sylvania E0-1 or E02 set... there seems to be MORE chance of me finding a CTC-4 or 5 set, or even a CT-100...than one of those early 1970's SS sets...

Does NOT seem to be possible...but evidently it IS.

And it is all because of poor parts/service info in the old days...


And I ALSO think the tubes must not have been too good in them either...but maybe I am wrong about that.

One way or the other....ALL of them have seemed to ended up in the packer trucks some time ago...but those OLD , BW philco and Admiral sets ALWAYS pop up !!

Jon A.
08-15-2014, 08:30 PM
Those early Trinitrons seem to be quite plentiful, in spite of how crappy many of them are and the poor parts distribution back in their day.

Another decade or so and those early SS sets will start popping up in decent numbers I reckon. Even the 621TS is breeding like rabbits now.

andy
08-16-2014, 01:32 AM
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Jon A.
08-16-2014, 02:25 AM
I'd like to get my hands on a Sony set that will work with my original Remote Commander. It isn't high on my priority list though. Not many of those made I hear, and they're probably from before those units that use the SG-613 transistors.

dieseljeep
08-16-2014, 09:18 AM
Some things to know. RCA and Zenith were much better on making sets which stood the test of time, and they had parts and service support networks which were the best of the breed. Their sets aged better. Motorola, Magnavox, Philco, Sylvania, and the lesser brands along with GE tended to be less well supported when they got older or were less reliable with age. So, that accounts for the high presence of those brands. Magnavox made pretty fine sets, but their parts network was horrible to independent service shops who had to buy their Magnavox parts from Magnavox Home Entertainment Centers (some of those dealers would not sell parts over the counter). Philco also practiced similar tactics which many servicers highly disliked. And that also meant some sets got replaced sooner than planned.
RCA and Zenith were the best represented set makers. Their parts and service support, were second to none! The Motorola distributor was great too.
They had an Electronic Engineer on staff at all three distributors. There wasn't too much that they couldn't find a solution for.
Admiral and GE distribution was corporate owned.
In the mid-to-later 80's, everything seemed to fall apart. Everything changed!
Parts were a lot harder to get.
That's when I bailed out of TV repairing. :scratch2:

etype2
08-16-2014, 01:48 PM
http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Sony-KV-1722-SS-face_525-WP.jpgThose early Trinitrons seem to be quite plentiful, in spite of how crappy many of them are and the poor parts distribution back in their day.

Another decade or so and those early SS sets will start popping up in decent numbers I reckon. Even the 621TS is breeding like rabbits now.


Sony Trinitrons were and continue to this day to be the most reliable color CRT televisions.

KV 7010UA and KV 1210U purchased in 1969 working perfectly without a service until 2006 when they were given away by my wife by mistake. 37 years of reliability. I still have my original KV 1722 purchased in 1973. Not one single service since purchased and it continues to display a beautiful image after 41 years of operation. That is what I call reliability. Screenshots from my Sony KV 1722.

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Sony-KV-1722-SS-Phil_525-WP.jpg

Jon A.
08-16-2014, 07:56 PM
Seems to be hit or miss with these Sony sets. They're complained about a lot of the time, yet some seem to hold up forever.

I think one can only speculate about the lack of other brands, we'll never know for sure. Makes them more interesting to some when they are found. I tune out whenever I hear of a chassis starting with CTC. My 1978 XL-100 is an exception to the rule, plain but looks good to me. It would have been ratted for parts otherwise.

rca2000
08-16-2014, 08:55 PM
I do NOT "tune out" for CTC #'s--but I DO want to know WHICH # they are. The CTC 74/81 direct address set seems to be harder for me to get than a CTC-5. Again--I feel it is because the tubes were not too good in them--and so when they died for good...so did the sets.

But I would have NEVER guessed that a 1957 CTC-5--found today--would have a BETTER tube--than a 1976-78 CTC-74/81. But is SEEMS to be that way.

zenith2134
08-17-2014, 12:55 AM
I would never 'tune out' a nice later CTC set. I am fond of the CTC-117 and 121

Jon A.
08-17-2014, 10:14 AM
To each his own. The more common something is, the easier I get bored with it. I rarely get excited about anything made outside the 70s now. An early XL console with motor-driven turret tuner would appeal to me, especially one on legs (Danish Modern?) but not much else RCA.

By the way, there's a GoldStar console in my local listings right now with cat-scratched speaker cloth. Never knew GoldStar consoles existed. Probably a piece of crap.

andy
08-17-2014, 10:43 AM
...

Jon A.
08-17-2014, 11:27 AM
The trouble with weak Sony CRTs, aside from their not taking rejuvenation is that they can only be replaced with other Sony CRTs. Lots of RCA-supplied CRTs in sets of other makes, even the rotting Canadian-model Hitachi I picked up had a RCA CRT and yoke, which I still have along with most of the other parts.

etype2
08-17-2014, 11:59 AM
The trouble with weak Sony CRTs, aside from their not taking rejuvenation is that they can only be replaced with other Sony CRTs. Lots of RCA-supplied CRTs in sets of other makes, even the rotting Canadian-model Hitachi I picked up had a RCA CRT and yoke, which I still have along with most of the other parts.

Why would anyone want to put a non Sony CRT in a Sony set?

The Trinitron one gun with three inline cathodes is what set Sony apart from all others with its superior focusing and lack of a need for convergence adjustments.

andy
08-17-2014, 05:59 PM
...

Jon A.
08-17-2014, 06:56 PM
I think he just meant that it's impossible to do, unlike other brands which all use interchangeable CRTs (eg. you can put a Zenith CRT in a Sylvania TV, or a GE CRT in an RCA TV).
That's exactly what I meant. Kind of like the SG-613 transistors, it's OEM or no-go.

dieseljeep
08-17-2014, 07:22 PM
That's exactly what I meant. Kind of like the SG-613 transistors, it's OEM or no-go.

Several years back, I installed a Sylvania CRT in a Zenith set.
The picture is great, but the curvature of the CRT, is totally different. It doesn't fit the mask. There's a 3/4 inch gap, between the CRT and the cutout of the cabinet.
The end results! Two pieces of junk, made into one! :yes:
Same difference! :thumbsdn:

rca2000
08-17-2014, 07:31 PM
But MOST of the time--one can do that--with NO problem. I have done it a lot, back in 'the day". An RCA tube (IIRC ) into a philco hybrid. Worked VERY well--NO gaps. A Zenith Chromacolor tube into an Admiral M25. Fit and worked VERY well.

If a tube fits right and is the same--even simliar electrically--it will normally work.. NOT on a junkatron though. They HAVE to be exact.

Jon A.
08-17-2014, 07:38 PM
Yeah, it sucks about the curvature of some screens being different. Nevertheless, Sony aside, I never know which CRTs will fit which sets until they're actually in, so I keep any from older sets I scrap. Seems that RCA supplied CRTs to many TV manufacturers though.

Perhaps the mounting points alone were causing the problem with the fit? I'm unclear on this, but it sounds like the 3/4" gap was all the way around.

dieseljeep
08-17-2014, 08:03 PM
Yeah, it sucks about the curvature of some screens being different. Nevertheless, Sony aside, I never know which CRTs will fit which sets until they're actually in, so I keep any from older sets I scrap. Seems that RCA supplied CRTs to many TV manufacturers though.

Perhaps the mounting points alone were causing the problem with the fit? I'm unclear on this, but it sounds like the 3/4" gap was all the way around.

One the top and bottom, that gap was larger. The side, not so!
The manufacturers didn't have that many variations on the mounting configurations on CRT's made in the mid to late 70's.
A 23V or 25V, was about the same, no matter what firm built it. There was no problem making them fit.
Even if it had a tension band, it would fit.
No so, in the later CRT issues. :scratch2:

andy
08-17-2014, 08:34 PM
That's exactly what I meant. Kind of like the SG-613 transistors, it's OEM or no-go.
...

etype2
08-18-2014, 10:22 AM
I think he just meant that it's impossible to do, unlike other brands which all use interchangeable CRTs (eg. you can put a Zenith CRT in a Sylvania TV, or a GE CRT in an RCA TV).

It's a myth that Sony's don't require convergence. Trinitrons are less complicated to converge than a delta gun, but more complicated than a typical in-line gun.


I was thinking about the time when the Trinitron was first introduced. Decades later, other manufactures caught up to a certain degree but could never duplicate the Trinitron until Sony's Patent expired in 1996.

The Trinitron only requires 6 picture tube adjustment controls compared to 24 in the typical shadow mask of that period. The cathode are in one plane as opposed to different planes in the shadow mask system of that time period. The Trinitron uses no convergence yoke, instead 4 electrostatic convergence plates. Vertical mis convergence is impossible in a Trinitron tube, therefor vertical convergence control is not required. Only small horizontal corrections are needed left and right, also the vertical stripes make beam landing errors less sensitive to the Earths magnetic field.

andy
08-18-2014, 07:26 PM
...

rca2000
08-18-2014, 07:40 PM
Don't forget the RCA -based tube with in-lne gun and the "magnetized tape" band over the end of the gun--for convergence. These usually required NO convergence adjustments--that tape did it all, set from the factory. Those tubes were not too bad , either. They hold up a LOT better than the JUNKatron tubes do !! JUNKatrons had an incredible picture...for a short time..before they died and could NOT be brought back. NOT really worth the premium Sony charged for them, often with a shitty, hot chassis to boot.

sampson159
08-18-2014, 08:00 PM
i second that rca2000.those crts held up very well.a 23v and a standard 25 are the same.the reason the sylvania wouldnt fit right in the zenith was the corklike tape on the side of the crt mask.have to remove it so the crt will set in the mask perfectly.been there too many times not to know.a sylvania 25vdmp22 in a flat chassis zenith will make the ultimate set.the greatest chassis with the finest looking crt.done it once and had a mindblowing set that went with the ex.hope the other guy enjoyed it as much as i did.

Jon A.
08-18-2014, 09:00 PM
I have a RCA inline CRT with the magnetized tape on it, a 19VLNP22. Worked awesome when pulled.
a 23v and a standard 25 are the same.the reason the sylvania wouldnt fit right in the zenith was the corklike tape on the side of the crt mask.have to remove it so the crt will set in the mask perfectly.been there too many times not to know.
Good to know. Those 70s Sylvania consoles are among my faves.

dieseljeep
08-19-2014, 09:06 AM
Don't forget the RCA -based tube with in-lne gun and the "magnetized tape" band over the end of the gun--for convergence. These usually required NO convergence adjustments--that tape did it all, set from the factory. Those tubes were not too bad , either. They hold up a LOT better than the JUNKatron tubes do !! JUNKatrons had an incredible picture...for a short time..before they died and could NOT be brought back. NOT really worth the premium Sony charged for them, often with a shitty, hot chassis to boot.
Sony's picture quality sold the set.
I'm well aware of the CRT's in certain models, that didn't stand up well!
I only replaced CRT's in two Sony sets. One from a junk set and one purchased as a new tube. That was the mid-70's 19" set. That CRT was made in California. I also saw two heavy-beast 26" consoles, where the CRT's were really sick.
I have several Sony's in my possession and all but two have perfect pictures.

etype2
08-19-2014, 09:33 AM
I concede that there may have been a few inline sets in the 70's, but I don't recall inline sets making big news other then Sony until the 80's and 90's.

For those who denigrate Sony sets, "crappy and junkatrons" I offer a few more screenshots in addition to the KV 1722 posted above.

KV 1220U from 1969

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Sony-KV-1220U-SS-11-525-WP.jpg

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Sony-KV-1220U-SS-10-525-WP.jpg

KV 9000U from 1970

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Sony-KV-9000U-SS-4-WP-525.jpg

These two sets are part of my collection 45 and 44 years old and still going strong.

andy
08-19-2014, 10:02 AM
...

etype2
08-19-2014, 10:26 AM
[QUOTE Until the 90's you could spot a Sony a mile away just from its picture quality.[/QUOTE]

You nailed it. That's what I'm talking about.

I bought Sony's from the beginning, 1968 because of the unique technology. Then I discovered that they just last and last without breakdown. Unlike most members here, I'm not a former TV repair man. I don't know a lick about how to fix sets except for what I read. That's why I stuck with Sony through the decades because I can't fix them and they last.

I must have good luck because I had and have 37, 41, 45 year old Sony sets where the tubes are still strong today. Owned a KV 1710, still have an original KV 4000U and a KV 5300U and many others. They all worked perfectly and the ones that I own, continue still going strong without break down. I don't want to bore with more screen shots, but I could post them here as proof of reliable operation.

I have read in this forum about Sony failures, but I can tell you I have had not one Sony failure in all the years of ownership starting in 1969. That is what I call reliability.

Jon A.
08-19-2014, 02:54 PM
Unlike most members here, I'm not a former TV repair man. I don't know a lick about how to fix sets except for what I read.
Same here, and on top of that I haven't been around long enough to see that many of the older Sony sets. I'm just going by what I read here, such as a mere slap killing a newly-repaired Sony.

dieseljeep
08-19-2014, 06:23 PM
Same here, and on top of that I haven't been around long enough to see that many of the older Sony sets. I'm just going by what I read here, such as a mere slap killing a newly-repaired Sony.
There's a lot of truth of what you read here.
I corrected a few repairs, done by other techs, where all the precautions weren't taken, regarding the horizontal drive circuit. I always resoldered the horizontal drive transformer and the drive transistor. Some techs would replace the drive transistor, Just in case!
It saved a few 2SC267's. :thmbsp:

TVTim
08-19-2014, 06:43 PM
Same here, and on top of that I haven't been around long enough to see that many of the older Sony sets. I'm just going by what I read here, such as a mere slap killing a newly-repaired Sony.

Count me in too Jon. When I was in my late teens, the closest I got to TV repair was pulling out tubes and checking them at Radio Shack. My dad was more adventurous. He changed out picture tubes too.

jbattles
08-19-2014, 07:29 PM
when a sony from lets say 78 - 90 came in to my shop they were worn out, but every once a while you a good one not worn out.

rca2000
08-19-2014, 08:00 PM
when a sony from lets say 78 - 90 came in to my shop they were worn out, but every once a while you a good one not worn out.


Sounds like the 91-98 Zenith tubes. Once in a GREAT while...you find a good one still to this day.


I tend to be one of the "majority" here--and have repaired many Sony sets--often for someone who had "tried and failed". I concede that the tube has a picture like no other set did...WHEN they worked. But by NOW_-those GCS sets are a TIME BOMB--just WAITING to send some poor tech into fits trying to fix one today !! And NO ONE here can dispute how TERRIBLE that 26 inch Sony tube was. A GREAT picture for a FEW years. I doubt one could exceed 10K hours from one...and they will NOT rejuv !!

and I TOO had to repair a lot of the somewhat newer Sony sets where someone had changed the H-out and inverter transistors (C_4834's, or that MX081 chip) But who did NOT bother to check the drive connections and BAM--ALL of it quickly vaporized. THAT point is where I would usually come in...and fix it RIGHT.

Jon A.
08-19-2014, 09:20 PM
Count me in too Jon. When I was in my late teens, the closest I got to TV repair was pulling out tubes and checking them at Radio Shack. My dad was more adventurous. He changed out picture tubes too.
The only TV repair I did in my youth didn't even involve troubleshooting. I found a joint for a vertical transistor that was completely devoid of solder. I took apart many TVs and monitors back then with no attempt to discharge any residual HV. It was a wonder I didn't get zapped, not by anything with a CRT anyway. I got 110/120 mains voltage on a challenge from the super at my old building. The line was spliced to the radio from a motel TV he had just scrapped. I grabbed one bare wire... nothing. I grabbed the other one... again, nothing. He then told me to grab both of them at once. Well, I haven't done such a thing since. He could hold onto live mains wires no problem.

jbattles
08-20-2014, 12:14 AM
I had a 96 model Sony 32' I forget the model no, but I bought it from the thrift store in 2002 fixed some joints used it until my sister law needed it in 2007. Then her family wore it out tube was no good. I have a 2007 Sony 27fds120 awesome picture digital tuner built in I use it every day paid 20 bucks from goodwill back in December plus I have a parts set that some one dropped and crt is messed up it. now I will find them watch when and they tear up scrap them.

andy
08-20-2014, 10:41 AM
...

jr_tech
08-20-2014, 01:01 PM
That's a little unfair to Sony. Those Zenith tubes were just plain defective (like the 26" Sony). They would fail before the set got much use. Most of the worn out Sonys had a lot of hours on them.

Anybody here know what caused the problem with the 26" Sony tubes? ... were the 26" jugs perhaps among the first that were not made in the Japanese facility? It would make sense for the very heavy 26" console to be assembled in the San Diego facility, perhaps the 26" tubes represent the start up of non Japanese CRT production. :scratch2:

jr

Electronic M
08-20-2014, 01:07 PM
IIRC cathode requirements of larger CRTs are more stringent. I think it has something to due with current per square inch to achieve a certain brightness... If they used the same guns that were in the original 12" in all sizes up until that point I can see those guns probably being decent in a 19" set, but 26" could have been a bridge too far that required a cathode emisive surface redesign that was unforeseen.

TVTim
08-20-2014, 07:01 PM
The only TV repair I did in my youth didn't even involve troubleshooting. I found a joint for a vertical transistor that was completely devoid of solder. I took apart many TVs and monitors back then with no attempt to discharge any residual HV. It was a wonder I didn't get zapped, not by anything with a CRT anyway. I got 110/120 mains voltage on a challenge from the super at my old building. The line was spliced to the radio from a motel TV he had just scrapped. I grabbed one bare wire... nothing. I grabbed the other one... again, nothing. He then told me to grab both of them at once. Well, I haven't done such a thing since. He could hold onto live mains wires no problem.


You never forget the first time you get zapped.

Jon A.
08-20-2014, 07:21 PM
Come to think of it, I had a spark jump to my finger when reaching for a piece of dangling glass after cutting the evac stem on a dying Hitachi CRT. The TV had been on recently and I didn't yet have my probe. It wasn't a full-on jolt, but it was enough to make me yank my hand back mighty fast.

etype2
08-20-2014, 09:49 PM
Been thinking about it. As said before, I purchased the very first Sony models starting in 1969 like the KV 7010UA, KV 1210U, KV 1720U, KV 1722U, KV 4000, KV 8100, KV 5300. They all worked like a charm with strong performance to this day.

Then got deverted away from CRT televisions and started buying projection televisions like the Advent 710, Kloss Nova Beam 10 foot projection, rear projection sets from Pioneer, then a 40 inch Mitubishi CRT, then a RCA 38 inch 16x 9 HD CRT TV, then returned to Sony with the KD 34XBR960, finally, Pioneer Plasma, and three LCD sets.

Possibly from the reports here, Sony quality dropped off in the 90's. I can't speak to that because of lack of purchase and ownership. The very early Sony sets just last and last for me as you saw from my screenshots. I also purchased many good working Sony sets on eBay. My Sony KD 34XBR960 is still solid with no problems. Love that set.

rca2000
08-20-2014, 09:59 PM
Been thinking about it. As said before, I purchased the very first Sony models starting in 1969 like the KV 7010UA, KV 1210U, KV 1710U, KV 1722U, KV 4000, KV 8100, KV 5300. They all worked like a charm with strong performance to this day.

Then got deverted away from CRT televisions and started buying projection televisions like the Advent 710, Kloss Nova Beam 10 foot projection, rear projection sets from Pioneer, then a 40 inch Mitubishi CRT, then a RCA 38 inch 16x 9 HD CRT TV, then returned to Sony with the KD 34XBR960, finally, Pioneer Plasma, and three LCD sets.

Possibly from the reports here, Sony quality dropped off in the 90's. I can't speak to that because of lack of purchase and ownership. The very early Sony sets just last and last for me as you saw from my screenshots. I also purchased many good working Sony sets on eBay. My Sony KD 34XBR960 is still solid with no problems. Love that set.

IF you can move it without a crane or forklift !!

ChrisW6ATV
08-23-2014, 01:30 AM
I am an odd combination here: A TV technician (for over 30 years so far) who has repaired hundreds of Sony sets (monitors, actually), and who would still to this day never buy anything BUT a Sony for a new CRT display (if we even still could do so!).

Trinitron CRTs just plain beat everything else by a mile, in all of the years I ever compared color CRT displays, from 1979 when I bought my first, through the 2000s when I liked the widescreen HD Sony sets but had moved on to rear-projection sets (which were also Sony CRT sets).

Back to the original subject of this topic, more or less: When Sylvania was advertising their "Supersets" and claiming they beat all others-including Sony-in comparisons, I never did go and see how those sets really did look. Are there very many "Supersets" still around, compared to the number of Sony sets still in existence? Do any of you have opinions on their quality at the time?

jstout66
08-23-2014, 08:55 AM
I remember the ad, which I LOVED. "Ahhhh Sylvania beat Sony AGAIN?"
I DO have story when they were new. In the 79-81 time period, we sold Philco, which was a rebadged Sylvania. We were a Zenith dealer, and had to carry a secondary brand so as not to lose a sale (Zenith's were about the most expensive set at the time). We had carried a few other secondary brands over the years, and we would not fire them up next to a Zenith, because the Zenith picture would make the set look like crap, no matter how well adjusted it was. When we got those rebadged Sylvania's we discovered NOT to fire em up side by side, because that was the only set I ever saw that WOULD look as good, if not better than a CC2. It's because like the Sylvania's, they used that dark faced tube. However, as most have us have discovered, that tube was NOT long lasting. It averaged about a 5 year life span. A Trinitron tube you could get about 10 years. There are exceptions to the above, and I think people bag on Sony ( me included) because for the premium price you paid, one would think the tube would have lasted longer, but I agree with you somewhat... a Sony of that era out of the box looked fantastic, but I don't think the picture was any better than a Zenith Chromacolor out of the box.

zeno
08-23-2014, 03:36 PM
I remember the ad, which I LOVED. "Ahhhh Sylvania beat Sony AGAIN?"
I DO have story when they were new. In the 79-81 time period, we sold Philco, which was a rebadged Sylvania. We were a Zenith dealer, and had to carry a secondary brand so as not to lose a sale (Zenith's were about the most expensive set at the time). We had carried a few other secondary brands over the years, and we would not fire them up next to a Zenith, because the Zenith picture would make the set look like crap, no matter how well adjusted it was. When we got those rebadged Sylvania's we discovered NOT to fire em up side by side, because that was the only set I ever saw that WOULD look as good, if not better than a CC2. It's because like the Sylvania's, they used that dark faced tube. However, as most have us have discovered, that tube was NOT long lasting. It averaged about a 5 year life span. A Trinitron tube you could get about 10 years. There are exceptions to the above, and I think people bag on Sony ( me included) because for the premium price you paid, one would think the tube would have lasted longer, but I agree with you somewhat... a Sony of that era out of the box looked fantastic, but I don't think the picture was any better than a Zenith Chromacolor out of the box.
I will comment on the GT-Matics then Super Sets. Long time ago
so dont hold me to dates etc.
GT matics were abt 1974. There were 2 chassii a non modular E08 IIRC
& a 3 board job with delta guns for top of line 19" & 25". I believe they
were the first sets with a countdown ckt for hoz & vert thus eliminating
hoz & vert holds. You could get the "Dark Light" CRT in better models
from 13" - 25". The pix could be spectacular, if a scene was black its
WAS BLACK not grey. . Its all in the face coatings & I think how hard they drove them as said. The delta jugs didnt last as long as the in lines on the cheaper sets, I would guess because the deltas were old designs
being run at there limits. All & all a very good set & 10% less
than Zenith & RCA, 20% less than Sony, a break even......
Trade names like System 3, Colortrac, etc went on sets that had a
list of "musts" to get the name. IIRC the Super Set was an updated GT-Matic. It probably "needed" RAT tuning, comb filter, dark-light
CRT etc to earn the name.
As for pix quality its mostly personal taste then actual specs.
I have had folks that hated there new sets pix even though the
old set had a near dead CRT. We would have to back them way off
& make them look crappy.

73 Zeno:smoke:

jstout66
08-23-2014, 05:03 PM
Zeno, You brought back a memory I forgot about. Customers getting used to a crappy set/CRT. We'd get a set in for repair, and on occasion, do a "tune-up". We could get that set looking about like it did when new, and we had a few people that complained! Another memory... My grandpa always carried a roll of paper towels and Windex in the service van. You'd be surprised on some of the calls we'd get for a dark or blurry picture were cured by cleaning the tube. (mainly smokers sets)

Dan Starnes
08-23-2014, 07:25 PM
I grew up with Admiral tv's and appliances. Remember being shocked there were other brands when I was old enough to realize. I have one great working mid 50's Admiral floor model and 2 great halo Sylvania's.

ChrisW6ATV
08-28-2014, 02:19 AM
I agree with you somewhat... a Sony of that era out of the box looked fantastic, but I don't think the picture was any better than a Zenith Chromacolor out of the box.
I was trying to think of how to describe what I saw that set Sony sets apart from all of the American-brand sets I saw in the late 1970s or early 1980s, including Zeniths, and here it is: Sony sets appeared to have their chassis better matched to their picture tubes, by tightly controlling their available adjustments. If I imagine the full range of a chassis or circuit's ability to drive a CRT, good or not-so-good, then Sony sets had contrast/picture adjustments that could drive their CRTs from, say, 20% to 60% of their maximum output (and they looked good in that full range, time after time). Other brands could be adjusted for 10% to 90% of their CRT's maximum output-but with a CRT and chassis that were only good up to 50% of that output. So, I saw a LOT of American-brand TV sets with over-driven CRTs with out-of-focus highlights, and blooming/poor high-voltage regulation from scene to scene. And again, I saw this over and over again. So, maybe those sets were capable of excellent pictures if adjusted right, but few people (or stores?) seemed to ever do that or to be capable of doing so.

sampson159
08-28-2014, 07:51 AM
oh,those sylvanias!those were great days.the first really excellent sylvania was the d16 chassis.it had a huge tuner setup.after that came the great slide control set.the picture was fantastic and those sets were well built and easy to maintain.crts were 1st rate.as good as a chromacolor set anyday.then came the ss chassis sets with the 25vdmp22 crt.this produced the best picture.didnt last long though.4-5 years and it was history.we replaced with zenith crts and not one came back.i loved those sets and owned many of them.my favorite was a e45 chassis superset with electronic tuner.the crt was from a philco hybrid that made one hell of a picture.i currently own a e48 chassis with the 25vdmp22.it was purchased in late 1978 and has never been repaired.
got it at an estate sale.i watch it sparingly.the crt is excellent.the chromocolor sets are the overall best but the sylvanias of that era were very close in picture quality.

davet753
08-28-2014, 07:50 PM
In the 90's, I sold Zenith, Quasar (made by Panasonic), Crosley (made by Magnavox), and a smattering of Sharp and Magnavox. In side-by-side comparisons on the sales floor, Zenith always seemed to edge out all the rest.

We serviced all brands, so there's not too much that didn't come across our bench. I remember some of the sets with the best pictures were usually either Zenith or Sylvania super-sets.

Sony sets were usually either really good, or really bad as far as picture quality went. Personally, I never wanted one because they were such a pain to troubleshoot and get parts for.

KentTeffeteller
08-28-2014, 09:26 PM
On 17" and smaller I have long time been a Sony man, 19" and larger a Zenith Chromacolor II man. The Zenith sets were more service friendly and better supported than the Sonys were. And easier serviced when they had issues. Sylvania Supersets new were nice, but they seemed to be more stressed and less conservative circuit designs. Which meant they lasted shorter lifespans as daily watchers. They did make nice pictures however. My grandmother was for many years a Zenith diehard on TV sets. Her last set, a Sanyo which lasted 32 years. Which got replaced by a used CRT Trinitron I scored cheap.

zenith2134
08-28-2014, 10:01 PM
As much as I love Zeniths, from the early tube-chassis Chromacolors to the CC-II and System 3s, I feel that many collectors turn their noses up at the solid state RCA TVs. I have had a fair amount of quality RCA products from the 70s and 80s, which today are getting as rare as a color Admiral or Motorola in my opinion. Chassis such as the CTC-97, CTC-108, CTC-117, CTC-121 and 130, were all nice TVs in their highest-end incarnations. Sure, a lot of repairs were well-documented as they aged, but we're in 2014 now & these are about 30 years old or so...

rca2000
08-28-2014, 10:20 PM
I NOT really one of them..

I too have a number of RCA sets--both BW and color, including a fair number of earlier SS and 70's SS sets too. 2-ctc-44 sets, 2 CTC-47 sets, a couple of CTC-67 sets, at least one mid 70's RCA 19" "hotel style" SS set, probably a ctc 71 or 76, a CTC 62 or 72, One CTC-74 NON DA set, A CTC-40 combo set--and later ones, one Cold version of the CTC-130, a CTC-133 console, 2 ctc-131 "box" type sets,.

I do NOT really like most of the "hot" RCA sets, like the chassis #'s you mentioned and also do not like the CTC-140, 146, 149,157,159 or ANY of those style sets, MANY of which I have worked on in the past. They nearly ALWAYS have good tubes though.

I am NOT really 'brand loyal" though I do have a soft spot for Zenith and RCA. I am more "design loyal', and have ALWAYS steered clear of hot chassis sets-(including radios, phonos and stereos), -though today--I WILL often grab one, if it is older and rarer, even if I personally do not want it--someone else might.

Jon A.
08-29-2014, 10:53 AM
oh,those sylvanias!those were great days.the first really excellent sylvania was the d16 chassis.it had a huge tuner setup.after that came the great slide control set.the picture was fantastic and those sets were well built and easy to maintain.crts were 1st rate.as good as a chromacolor set anyday.then came the ss chassis sets with the 25vdmp22 crt.this produced the best picture.didnt last long though.4-5 years and it was history.we replaced with zenith crts and not one came back.i loved those sets and owned many of them.my favorite was a e45 chassis superset with electronic tuner.the crt was from a philco hybrid that made one hell of a picture.i currently own a e48 chassis with the 25vdmp22.it was purchased in late 1978 and has never been repaired.
got it at an estate sale.i watch it sparingly.the crt is excellent.the chromocolor sets are the overall best but the sylvanias of that era were very close in picture quality.
Did all of the SS Sylvanias from the 70s use the 25VDMP22?

sampson159
08-29-2014, 08:21 PM
not all.some ss sets used the 25vaqp22.the higher end was the25vdmp22.i liked the way that crt looked but they had a short life span.we stocked vdc replacement crts and plenty of zenith 25v tubes.we offered rebuilds for 99.00 and used for 69.00.never had a used crt come back.the earlier 25vaqp22 had a very long life.some of those lasted 20-25 years.

Jon A.
08-29-2014, 09:41 PM
Looks like some later models also used the 25VEXP22 or the 25VCZP22. Check out the first pic in this thread:

http://videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=259357

25VDMP22 jumped right out at me, I didn't notice the others until just now.

sampson159
08-30-2014, 08:23 AM
the later sets,e41 and e45 use the 25vczp22 and 25exp22 picture tubes.they seemed to hold up much longer than the 25vdmp22.did you ever get this set working properly?if so,post pictures

Jon A.
08-30-2014, 10:21 AM
the later sets,e41 and e45 use the 25vczp22 and 25exp22 picture tubes.they seemed to hold up much longer than the 25vdmp22.did you ever get this set working properly?if so,post pictures
Not my set, but it was repaired.