This was a restoration project I started to run into troubles with. I was recommended here from another corner of the web. :D

The set was picked up from the side of the road with a FREE sign on it.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0708.jpg

Never seen that much hardwood on a TV before. It's a combo unit too. TV, AM radio and record player. A stamp on the chassis says it was built April 28 1953. Both the cabinet and the chassis were built in Canada so it's no doubt this puts the set right when my grandfather used to service Westinghouse appliances.
The cabinet looks really bad but for the most part it was just the sun that did most of the damage. The stain on any exposed part rubs off your hand, that gasket hanging down is solid as a rock. the speaker grille fabric has been essentially bleached white and the tuning knob is clouding up.
Picture tube visually looks okay but we'll have ti find out later what all those years int he sun might of done to the phosphors.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0709.jpg
The record player was seized up and very dirty when I received it. There was also oddly a lack of bolts and screws. Everything was either missing or mismatched.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0724.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0715.jpg

The chassis looks okay. There wasn't a whole lot of dirt on it. The anode cable was hanging out of the H/V cage so the solder joint on the 8016's socket went bad. I'll have to run all the tubes through the checker though. The capacitors on the other hand are definitely in need of attention. I'll put it aside until the cabinet is repaired.

Anyways, so the cabinet needed a recoat. I sanded it down to bare wood and restained with several coats with the closest tint I could find. I think I settled on red Mahogany. I spent several days trying to source a new and identical replacement to the fabric but eventually I had to admit defeat and bought half a meter of the closest thing that they would of put on a TV in the 50's.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0714.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0728.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0733.jpg
(I sure hope I have not made any mistakes yet. I've heard stories about botched restorations and people screaming sacrilege over it. I'm trying the best I can.)

The cabinet is almost restored however I'm having trouble with one of the extra pieces of detail. There used to be horizontal gold stripes and lettering and I'm not entirely sure how to reapply either. It wasn't the kind of thing I could sand around either. so I need ideas on how to paint it back on. Any of the old folks here have any secrets?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0713.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0723.jpg

I also spent a bit of time cleaning up the record player. It all freed up with 3-in-1 and grease but the friction wheel was totally dead. I was able to replace it with a rubber O-ring but there's a problem with traction. None of the speeds are correct and the automatic arm loading/unloading is enough to completely bog down the turntable. Any ideas there for better traction?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0717.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0719.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0720.jpg

There's also other random bits and pieces that need attention. I'm missing several knobs and have no idea where to find replacements.
Another thing I'm concerned about is the decal inside the glass. IS there anything I should brush on it to prevent it from flaking off?

Glad you joined. :) Hopefully someone here can help you.

For the lines, as I recommended the other day, maybe a straight ruler and some gold paint on a fine pointed brush may help, but hopefully someone else will chip in with ideas. The woodworking has come along real nicely so far!

nice work on the cabinet ,i like the replacement speaker cloth better than the orginal.

Glad you joined. :) Hopefully someone here can help you.

For the lines, as I recommended the other day, maybe a straight ruler and some gold paint on a fine pointed brush may help, but hopefully someone else will chip in with ideas. The woodworking has come along real nicely so far!

or a straightedge with a gold paint pen from a craft store.

RE: Gold Lines

Cover the area entirely with the best "no bleed" masking tape available. Then take a straight edge and an exacto knife and cut through the masking tape and peal off the tape to create lines and expose the wood underneath. Then mask off the rest of the set with paper and masking tape to prevent overspray and use gold spray paint in a can to paint the gold lines. This is pretty much the same method that is used to paint graphic designs like racing stripes on a car.

Any tips on making the thickness the same for each line or is that just a good ruler?

On the turntable. I think the O-ring will work but it is just to slick. Use sand paper 300g or an emery board to rough it up and I bet it works just fine.

Great job so far. Old westy's should be saved whenever possible. that cabinet looks great! Add a coat of lacquer and it would look like original, but new.

Im sure have the schematic diagram for that TV. I will need the model number and if its a different number for Canadian Westinghouse,
I might need to see a photo of the tube chart from inside the cabinet to match up.

Also helpful: the chassis number, is a V followed by four numbers.

There's two stickers marked CHASSIS No: 99423 and 69436 plus a bunch of ink stamped stuff that looks like QA steps but otherwise there's nothing close to what you speak of. Neither is there any mention on the tube chart.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0726.jpg

I like how the 1N60, which is a solid state diode, is listed in the tube chart such that the average Joe would not know that it is not a tube...

That photo is very helpful but the numbers are strictly Canadian Westinghouse.
I will look at the tube chart and likely find a matching set with an H-prefix model number

Very nice restoration on the cabinet. love this tv.. Lucky man !...

Sorry for the lack of real updates. Work keeps me on my toes a lot (as does photography, videography, vintage computers and oh god I have way too many hobbies) so I can't regularly keep my hands on a project. Don't worry though, I'll give a nice update when I get the time in the next few days. ;)
I did however start looking up a place to source new capacitors. Should I keep with more traditional looking caps or upgrade to more modern lytic and plastic film? Also, any ideas for the lettering yet? I tried making a stencil with a laser printer and xacto knife but wasn't happy with the result.

So far so good on the restoration.
Addressing the gold stripes. If you are not comfortable doing this yourself, I would suggest an auto customizing shop and find the guy that does the pin stripping. I believe you can find the appropriate decals for the lettering on line i.e.: http://www.radiodaze.com/product/6078.aspx

-Steve D.

I did however start looking up a place to source new capacitors. Should I keep with more traditional looking caps or upgrade to more modern lytic and plastic film?I don't know what you mean by traditional looking, but nobody has made old-fashioned paper or "bumblebee" caps in years (and that's a good thing, since those caps were junk). This article has a lot of information about recapping:

http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm

Two good sources for caps are http://www.mouser.com/ and http://www.justradios.com/ .

Regards,

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Actually, Gibson still makes (sort of) black beauty capacitors. Check out the link and the price: http://store.gibson.com/capacitors/ I still have trouble believing that someone isn't pulling our leg on this one.

well, the world is crazy !...129 dollars aie aie !....and this is not related tv stuff...

I like how the 1N60, which is a solid state diode, is listed in the tube chart such that the average Joe would not know that it is not a tube...

Well, if you look at the tube chart and at the underside of the chassis, you will see that it is mounted in a tube socket!

If you look at the top of the chassis, you will see a tube shield!

Jas.

And if you were to pop that shield off....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_6355.jpg

Actually, Gibson still makes (sort of) black beauty capacitors. Check out the link and the price: http://store.gibson.com/capacitors/ I still have trouble believing that someone isn't pulling our leg on this one.

I wonder if they're actually foil/paper or just slightly leaky (reject?) modern ones that are repackaged? The again... if the audiophools are willing to pay for it...

And if you were to pop that shield off....

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_6355.jpg

Well, there's something I've never seen before...Weird.

I'm too awful with lines so I seeked the professional work of my mom who learned how to do this kind of stuff since the 70's. The solution was as simple as a ruler, pencil and a gold pen. Goes on easily and gives the same appearance as if I sprayed it on but with far less prep work needed. Also easier to clean up of there is a mistake.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0739.jpg

Okay, I'm not going to lie. The straight lines really show how badly the letrasetting was done. It can be fixed but seeing as there's a thin layer of varnish brushed over to prevent accidental scrapes it will take some effort. From a distance it looks better and you're probably going to view this from across a room so we'll let this pass.
Meanwhile I've taken the glass pane and applied a thin layer of glaze as to reseal the painted surface. It qoes on opaque but dries clear. Once this has dried I will reassemble the cabinet completely and proceed to the chassis.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0740.jpg

I have found no suitable material to replace the old bezel gasket. At this point I'm considering reassembing the set without it.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0712.jpg
Also yes, the gasket has hardened into that shape.

I did however find a suitable replacement for the green matting that was behind the AM tuning needle. Michael's had thin sheets of adhesive backed felt that I could cut to size and mount in place of the old sun damaged material. It's still thicker than the original material but it doesn't interfere with the needle.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0730.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0731.jpg

Edited:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/picard-facepalm.jpg
Look closely at the old stripes and then count my new ones. I don't know how I fudged it but there's now nine lines instead of eight. Oh well. Lets just say they were always there.

Not a bad job with the gold stripping and the general refinishing of the cabinet as well as re-lettering the control label. Seems to me the gasket is pretty much intact and w/the grooves can be carefully reattached to the mask as seen in the original photo. You might install the gasket upside down and have the rejoined ends at the bottom. Wishing you success as you tackle the chassis.

-Steve D.

For the phono's drive wheel, Terry's Rubber Rollers can likely get you an exact one, esp if the changer is a common (VM, or such) type. That guy does amazing work!

I reassembled the cabinet today so that part is finally done.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0809.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_6383.jpg

For the phono's drive wheel, Terry's Rubber Rollers can likely get you an exact one, esp if the changer is a common (VM, or such) type. That guy does amazing work!
I wouldn't have the faintest idea where to lookup my phonograph to confirm exactly what series it is.

Anyways, now we can focus on the chassis. I know the local electronics shop here doesn't have any of the caps I need so I'll collect a parts list and when I'm down in Vancouver next week I can drop by Main Electronics which is probably the best electronics shop in British Columbia. They even have a tube tester! For now however I'll clean and test the tubes on my own bench and work on buffing up the chassis.

Oh shoot.
Before I removed the picture tube I marked the location of the ion trap and totally forgot the marking was there when I cleaned the neck and it rubbed off. A previous photo (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0724.jpg) gives me a vague idea where it used to be but does it need to be precisely positioned or can a rough replacement using the image above be fine?
I've also ordered in a new set of caps. With the exception of a 475v 20mfd cap that we could not find an immediate replacement for and and a few others had to be substituted with slightly higher voltages. I'll start the recap the next time I get some time off.
I alos had to put my tube checker on loan for a few months along with my stockpile of tubes so we'll have to hope that everything is fine and dandy when I bring the set up on the variac.

Before I removed the picture tube I marked the location of the ion trap and totally forgot the marking was there when I cleaned the neck and it rubbed off. A previous photo (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0724.jpg) gives me a vague idea where it used to be but does it need to be precisely positioned or can a rough replacement using the image above be fine?
Once you get the raster back, just tweak the trap for maximum brightness consistent with no neck shadow.

Ran out of solder and capacitors. I swear I ordered enough......:dammit:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_6440.jpg

I'll have to order the rest in, otherwise the job so far has not been too painful. Again, I'm leaving the original red Sangamo caps because I've been told they aren't as prone to age related failure.
While I'm on the bench, does anyone know which pin is CRT anode output on the 1B3GT so I can reattach the cable?

Looks like a VM changer, youl should be able to match the idler to the pictures and dimensions on the VM website. The VM site also tells you how to look for the number of your changer. If the idler does not seem to be getting enough traction, often theres old hardened grease thats causing the drag on the motor to be too high.

Nice save and restore !

Awesome restore MIPS!
i have the original canadian service info for this set if you still need it.
pm me your email and i can scan and send over the next few days.
have a good one,
RonL

Hi Mips.
Got your pm-will scan info and try the "dropbox" site to get info to you.
also, Main electronics might still have the "tire" you need for your turntable.
also you asked "does anyone know which pin is CRT anode output on the 1B3GT so I can reattach the cable?" it goes to pin 7 of the 1b3 hv rectifier.
ill get the scans done over the weekend
cheers,
RonL

Hi Mips.
data emailed to you a few min ago.-let me know if you need higher res for the schematic portion.
have a good one,
RonL

Thanks ronl, I checked my email today and I saw it in my inbox. This will be quite helpful.

there is nothing more satisfying than to take something that most people would consider trash and ,look at it and see what it could be in your mind, then slowly bring it back to a condition better than it was when it was new. great job

Okay, so I've ran into substitution and sourcing said substitutes.
There's still three caps left in the set

-475v 20uf
-400v .5uf
-600v .033uf

I've been talking to a few friends about replacements and we agreed that no exact values could be affordably found so we looked into substituting with the following:

-22uf 475v
-470nf 400v
-33nf 600v

I can source the latter two caps here (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-pcs-Capacitor-CBB-400V-474-474J-0-47uF-470nF-470000pF-5-RoHS-DIY-New-/151222805777?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item233594e511) and here (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/160815695911?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.ca%2Fsch%2Fi .html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_from%3DR40%26_nkw%3D16081569 5911%26_rdc%3D1) but I'm still having trouble with the 22uf cap.
I'm also unable to source three more cheap 600v .01 orange drops. They were cheap at Main Electronics but they don't ship orders under $25 so again I'm forced to buy online where the cheapest cost so far I've found was $10 for one. :/
Unless I can figure out this cap issue the whole project is suspended until I can get back down to Vancouver.

Hey MIPS,
those caps should do the trick, most tube gear can handle up to 20% tolerance so you should be good.
RonL

Woo, progress! Recap has been completed.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0904.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0905.jpg

The multi-cap cans are still there but I"m not touching those until I'm positive they have problems. I don't even know where to start on figuring out how their pin arrangement works.

All but two tubes have been checked on my Sencore. A number of them gave weak emissions but improved after a few minutes of cooking. I did however find a 6BE6 that had good emissions and life test but was pegged on BAD on grid leakage (once warm it crawls up and pegs, not an immediate swing-to-peg). I also have a 6W6GT but my setup chart only showed the 6W6. Are these two compatible for testing? The other tube not checked was the IB3GT which on inspection had a cloudy glass envelope near the base. Unsure if it's a manufacturing defect or sign the tube gassed. I could not get the Sencore to give any reading with it plugged in but I'm aware these tubes don't really work in most testers because of their design so if it works it works, else I have replacements for it and the 6BE6.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0907.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0908.jpg

The only other thing I did tonight was reconnect the anode cable. It's pin 7 on the IB3GT but the socket is confusing because pin 7 for some wild reason also has a lead which makes the socket base and the support live with a few thousand volts. It's isolated form the chassis by a ceramic tube buy why would they of done this?
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0909.jpg

Now that everything seems good it's time to attach the variac and lightbulb and see if it wakes up gracefully. The issue however is that my variac is only rated for 1A (what an amazing chinese product) so I would rather not push it past 2A so I want to limit the current I want to keep the CRT out and kill the high voltage. Any ideas on how to quickly cut that for now?

One last thing. Four of the pots on the front and rear of the chassis won't free up. I've gone at them with penetrating oil and WD 40 but only one other pot freed up. Should I dismantle and clean these old ones or replace them?

The multi-cap cans are still there but I"m not touching those until I'm positive they have problems. I don't even know where to start on figuring out how their pin arrangement works.The cans usually list the values and each value is marked with a little symbol (triangle, square, circle). There are little matching symbols on the bottom next to the lead for each cap. There will also be a common ground lead, usually unmarked. The schematic often shows those caps in its parts list, with a little symbol next to each one (triangle, etc.), so that you know which one is C2 or whatever. Of course, you can also figure out which lead is which by tracing the lead to see where it connects, and looking at the schematic.

This article has more information about replacing can electrolytics, with links to other articles that illustrate various methods:

http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm

In my experience, leaving those old electrolytics in place is not a good idea for the long term. They can fail at any time without warning, even if they seem to function now.

One last thing. Four of the pots on the front and rear of the chassis won't free up. I've gone at them with penetrating oil and WD 40 but only one other pot freed up. Should I dismantle and clean these old ones or replace them?You have nothing to lose by taking the pots apart and trying to clean them.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

My best guess for the 1B3 socket is either the ceramic tube isn't original and you were supposed to have a doorknob cap there, or the ceramic tube IS original and the metal all being at high voltage reduces corona losses...

From what I can see the gether on the 1B3 has turned white a sure sign the tube has lost it's vacuum and is dead, I'd replace it if I were you.

I see at least 6 red and one green plastic molded tubular paper capacitors those NEED to be REPLACED they are every bit as bad as the wax and cardboard shell type paper capacitors IF NOT WORSE.

Back in the day the same chassis was often offered in a plethora of cabinet models with a variety of CRT sizes/types depending on cabinet...If one or more of the CRTs it was used with was a metal cone type then there would have been a HV door-knob style capacitor in place of that piece of ceramic, and it may have been easier/cheaper on the all glass CRT models (if that chassis served both types) to simply leave out the expensive unnecessary cap and toss that ceramic insulator in...Rather than drastically change the HV rectifier mounting in the glass CRT model....It could also be a hold-over from an older chassis that did drive metal cone CRTs

I see at least 6 red and one green plastic molded tubular paper capacitors those NEED to be REPLACED they are every bit as bad as the wax and cardboard shell type paper capacitors IF NOT WORSE.

Dammit, really?? I was assuming that because they were plastic encapsulated they were more reliable than the regular wax paper ones. Well it looks like we are sidetracked again until the next time I travel back to the coast.

Yup! I calls 'em as I sees 'em.
A controlled start with a variac would not be out of the question though as a majority of the weak points are gone, and you could get lucky on the rest. In my experience BTW one can run variacs and isolation transformers well beyond their current ratings for a short time without any illeffects...Over heating is their failure mode and if the overload is not too extreme it can take north of 10 minutes for that to happen...Plenty of time for warmup and some futzing around.

I was assuming that because they were plastic encapsulated they were more reliable than the regular wax paper ones.Plastic-coated paper caps are every bit as rotten as wax paper caps. This article shows the various caps commonly found in old TVs & radios and gives advice about replacing them:

http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm

Those pink "Big Chiefs" are on the must-kill list, along with striped "bumblebees," flat "Micamolds," and wax paper.

Phil Nelson

Wow, that contradicts the last page I saw on identifying goods and duds.
I'm pretty much beat but I'll try bringing the rig up tomorrow. Any ideas yet on killing HV for now or will removing the gassy IB3GT suffice?

IMHO the best way to kill the HV on a set with a power transformer if to pull the horizontal output tube (on series heater sets either remove the plate lead or get creative...) . I would not run the set with both the HO tube and a gassy rectifier in place. If HV goes to that gassy HV rect. arcing may occur inside it and could cause other issues that ya probably don't want to deal with.

Yes, pulling the 6BG6 will prevent the HV from coming up.

I wouldn't suggest just disconnecting the plate cap on one, though. That leaves the screen grid voltage on the tube, and screen voltage without plate voltage applied can result in excessive screen dissipation, damaging the tube or burning the screen resistor.

I don't have a 6BG6. I do however have a 6BQ6 if that is what you meant.

For paranoia sake I'll bring the set up in steps. In phono mode only the amplifier works, in AM there's the amp and the radio. Finally in TV mode you get the amp and the TV. More results later.

Well it seems one of my two spare 1B3GT's went bad in storage (did anyone catch me calling it an IB3GT for a while? ;) ). Thankfully my second one was okay.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0915.jpg

I also had two spare 6BE6's. The first one had good emissions and life but the grid leakage test swung the needle everywhere. The second tube tested perfectly fine.
Once everything was reinstalled it was attached to the variac and a DMM to measure current and slowly woken up.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0914.jpg

No smoke. No nasty noises, no explosions. Current draw also seems to be pretty low. Cycling through the modes all the tubes lit and everything seems okay. We'll let it sit for a while to cook and see if anything happens and then I think it's about time to see if we can get a picture.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0916.jpg

Last thing for the day.

I reinstalled the last two tubes, took off the HV cage and brought up the power.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0917.jpg

No arcs, hissing, ozone or smoke and my young ears can hear the coil whine from the flyback. An IR thermometer was used to make sure nothing was overheating and then after five minutes I removed power and grounded the anode cap to the chassis. I do not own a high voltage probe so I can't tell what the voltage is but at least we know we should be ready for the CRT to be reinstalled. :banana:

CRT went in. Only iffy part is the ion trap because of previously stated wiping my alignment mark off but I had an older photo indicating a rough location.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0920.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0921.jpg

Also spent an hour dismantling and cleaning the five pots that were completely frozen up. Looks like the grease wasn't all that happy long term with the brass. One was so badly gummed up I had to use two pliers and the vice. After that was done they slid nicely and didn't seem to be too badly worn. We'll find out later.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0919.jpg

Finally the set was powered up. HV charged and something appeared.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0922.jpg
The picture deceives. There is a tiny amount of vertical deflection (it will stretch and shrink) but otherwise there's obviously a problem. There's also a terrible screech that changes in tone depending on the horizontal hold (Or something. NONE of the knobs are labled except for PICTURE and on/off/vol so I'm trying to determine them form the schematics) so for now I have that turned down. There's also an alignment issue. Turn the set off and the dot sits up in the corner. Probably a mix of the ion trap and the yoke being slightly out of adjustment.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0923.jpg

Did you replace the multi-can electrolytics and the plastic molded caps? If not, replacing those will make a big difference.:thmbsp:

Also nice pictures, high quality.

Not yet. That will take another month or so at least, again because the shop is a seven hour round trip.

We've also lost the picture completely. When I put the chassis on its side to find what the knobs did (height and vertical linearity are on the back and the horizontal and vertical hold is on the front but the central of the three front knobs is still a mystery) I powered the set back up and while I still get the squeaking effects there's nothing on the screen at all even though we have high voltage and the neck is lit.

Edited: Nope. It's still there. I guess the high voltage has been pulled down now or something as we've lost the brightness. Also, we've gone from the lack of vertical to pulsing between none and...something. Sure. I'll work on those caps....and that damn lightbulb which I forgot to buy last time I was there.
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0925.jpg

Check out justradios.com, easy to order from and very reasonable.

Main Electronics has an online order system but for that last tiny batch of caps I didn't make the $25 minimum order. IF now I'm buying at least 15 more caps I should be able to make an order. I'll have to inquire.

Just to confirm...

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0936.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0937.jpg

Left pin is semicircle, top is square and right is triangle?

Yep

That capacitor is one month older than I am. Replace it :D

Was able to restuff and seal two of the cans before I ran into space issues with the third and finally after 20 years my Weller's tip gave out. I'll get a new tip tomorrow.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0942.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0943.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0947.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0949.jpg

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0944.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0945.jpg

I've decided to hold onto the old empty can in case some time in the future we can source smaller caps and can properly restuff it. Three caps jammed into the old retainer looks kind of ugly.

Well that's another 16 capacitors replaced.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0951.jpg

The results were...interesting. The picture control is basically a gray screen for the first third of the knob being turned, then the picture snaps in and it seems to work although the bottom of the picture is an inch above the bottom edge of the tube. Vertical hold works....kinda. Brightness seems to behave. Horizontal hold seems to work on the low side but once you crank it up high enough the high voltage squeals angrily. Vertical linearity seems to work okay? Height control is extremely sensitive. Either you have a picture or the vertical collapses.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0953.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0954.jpg

Probably a few resistors which drifted out of value?

The good news however is that I attached a speaker and fed an audio signal in from my PC and we had good clear sound and when switched to TV we had white noise. ( >Youtube Link< (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld-93MDe16s) )

I kept poking at the set and fiddling with the knobs but then decided to hang the pattern generator off it. Sure enough an RF signal (at least we know channels 3 and 4 work) and a bit more fiddling resulted in a good image aside form the bottom 1-2 inches not being used.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0958.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0957.jpg

I'm calling it a night but there was a lot of progress today. Got any pointers where I should start looking next? I know I shouldn't be fine tuning the focus and ion trap until the controls are all working properly.

Oh yeah, one last thing. When I was fiddling with the controls I grabbed part of a metal rack behind me and received a light shock. The chassis seems to have 67V AC coming from somewhere.

The yoke needed adjustment. After some more work we gained an odd bending on some of the patterns but otherwise we got a nice picture.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0964.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0962.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0961.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0959.jpg

There's ghosting as well but that might be more the cabling I'm using to connect the set to the pattern generator and my videodisc player. We should be able to fine tune the picture once it's off the bench and in the cabinet upstairs. The controls continued to clean up as I adjusted the yoke as well however the height control is also still an all-or-nothing ordeal. The indian head pattern indicates I'm getting horizontal stretching but I'm not sure how to adjust that as there is no horizontal controls outside of hold. The VBI has also decided to slip down form its place at the top of the picture. The vertical hold can push it back to the top but any large scene changes and the image starts to roll. Any ideas?

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_6929.jpg

Started with tracing down the lack of width adjustment and came across a silver banded 2.2k that had drifted off to 3.5K (probably not my issue here but it wouldn't hurt to replace since it's almost doubled in value). At this point I realized I only stock 1/4 watt metal film resistors for digital electronics projects and that I have no way to figure out what the wattage is of these old carbon resistors. Is there a handy guide somewhere? Something like this? (http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/abres.png)

1/2 watt are by the most common types used in vintage TV and that guide you linked to shows the size.

It appears that the 2.5 meg pot for height is bad. Twisting one way yields a good slider until 3/4 of a turn, then it ramps off to infinity (and the image collapses). Testing the other side I can at best get up to 200k after 1/4 rotation before it too ramps off to infinity. Now the challenge to find a replacement.

A new pot and replacing a pile of resistors I was finding out of tolerance removed the VBI oddity and the lack of height control.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0968.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0969.jpg

The width control however is still completely dead. I've replaced or verified all the resistors immediately adjacent to it in the circuit and I know that any capacitors in the area that aren't mica are good because they've all been replaced. Both parts of the width coil have continuity so at the least it's not gone open but there's no spec on what resistance if any it should have. Any ideas? Anyone? Anyone?? :sigh:

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0971.jpg

Is there in fact a movable slug still inside the width coil, or has it possibly been broken and is now stuck at the far end, or fallen out?

I'm not familiar with this set's operation, but random picture bending can sometimes be caused by too strong of a signal overloading the circuit. You might try adjusting the video out level on your pattern generator.

Pattern generator doesn't have an amplitude control for RF out but I can work around that.

I can see the slug inside and it moves when you spin the tuning screw so that's okay at least.

Edited: I setup a small test circuit on the bench with the scope and signal generator and I can definately see amplitude change when the slug is moved so the coil is behaving okay.

Finally found something that was more than a resistor out of value. I swear I verified the two test points around the AGC/AFC tube but on checking again I appear to of been wrong.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0977.jpg
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0978.jpg
(probe ground was chassis during testing)

Both waveforms are nowhere near what they should be and are oscillating. Well we have already replaced all the resistors around this tube and the tube itself was checked again for good health and swapped for the 6U8A that was being used for sync sep./ noise limiter with no changes being observed. All I can assume at this point is that a ceramic or mica capacitor has failed somewhere close and it's wreaking havoc. Does this sound correct?

Edited: I missed the noise limiter/sync separator circuit as well. Both of its waveforms are also not correct and there is glytchyness on the test point for the 12BY7 but everything else is either spot-on or close enough.

Tried asking around at shops here in town and Vancouver and everyone was a little stumped. Best recommendation I got was to swap out the 6CU6 and 12BH7A. Found that one of my 6CU6's had gone south. (http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_7098.jpg) Unfortunately in doing so no real change happened so I went back to fiddling with the controls. At this point I discovered that if I looked closely and twisted the width control from end to end there was something like 8mm of movement so it's less that the width is not working at all but more that it's really weak.
Further testing quickly halted when I cranked the vertical linearity and C-434 burst into flame. Looks like an arc popped through the casing and went into the ground clip that it was resting against. Set still seems to behave but I'll have to swap the disc cap out anyways.

Hey MIPS ...perhaps your got the scope horz frequency set wrong?
those waveforms on the scope look like vert waveforms(fields) instead of horz waveforms (scan lines)that your diagram shows? iirc-your scope horz frequency should be set to microseconds(u) instead of milli seconds(m)? might be my old eyes-lol! great progress so far! pls keep at it.

Hey MIPS ...perhaps your got the scope horz frequency set wrong?
those waveforms on the scope look like vert waveforms(fields) instead of horz waveforms (scan lines)that your diagram shows? ...

Yes, they do look like what I'd expect for a trace showing the horiz over the time period of a vertical sweep (and then some). Showing that some vertical deflection energy getting into the horiz (usually not a problem).

The 2nd picture also looks like the scope ground had gotten poor, letting ground loop hum get into the trace.

My probe ground has always been the TV's chassis which I've always been concerned about since it always has something like 60v running through it regardless of the set being on or off. I've tested everything on the primary side. Even disconnected everything form the terminals of the plug on the back. It's almost like the socket itself has a leak but if you check there's no resistance under 20 megaohms.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_7121.jpg

It's always entirely possible the bekelite insulator on the socket has broken down with time but god knows what adding 60v AC to the chassis has done.

Hi Mips.
from what i gather without reading the schematic( gotta dig it out), most readings/waveforms use the chassis as ground for the test equipment with gear this vintage.check the footnotes on the schematic-it should say if the voltages/waveforms are taken with repect to chassis ground.

from what i have seen from your pictures-the last problem is width...tv width looks acceptable-some of these vintage sets never had perfect width or control of width.

i would try retaking those waveforms with the scope set in the "u" (horz)range?
might see they match the expexcted waveform? iirc,1 horz scan line is aprox 63.5 us or microseconds or 1/15750

not sure at this point without looking at the schematic why you are getting 60 vac with respect to ground-i suspect you are using a isolation transformer while working on this set so should be safe but will get back to you once i dig schematic out.
is picture good at this point other than width being a little wide?
just some thoughts.
RonL

The picture at this point is excellent aside from some ghosting (and that I can tell it is not from an excessively strong signal). The concern is that there is little to no width control and even on the pattern generator I can't make things fit so we're looking at an image that is around two inches too wide. I don't recall moving the yoke that far when I reinstalled the tube. Just a light adjustment to center the picture again.

I'm not running with an isolation transformer. With my knowledge of bakelite we should not be seeing a voltage being passed through the insulated socket at all (especially with these "low" voltages). If I knew where to source a replacement I'd try swapping it out. I've already zapped myself on this set several times because of it but nothing ever warned that this was a hot chassis. It raises a flag IMHO.

I'm not hanging my scopes off this until we sort this voltage issue out. If you want to look at the schematics yourself I posted them back on the first or second page but here's a high-res version if you want to be able to read anything. (https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjj9nnxlwijebea/17TV7C-SCH.png?dl=0)

Have you disconnected or replaced caps C503/C504 from the AC line to the chassis ? Have you checked R501 - 270K from one side of AC to chassis ?

It's been my experience that width coils have only a minor effect on the width are are used for fine adjustments. So your width issues might well be another component or tube in the horizontal circuit.

The the pictured test above C503 and C504 (and pretty much everything in the set) was disconnected. R501 is within tolerance.

I went through all the major tubes in the horizontal circuit and tested with alternates with no effects to the control. Just about every resistor in the circuit have also been confirmed for being within tolerance. All that is left are the ceramic and mica capacitors which I do not have any easy way to test. The first thing I was looking into replacing were the ceramic dogbones as there are at least three in the horizontal circuit with one of them directly in the width control circuit (C417). I just need the time to go to Vancouver again and order them.

Edited: The socket was dismantled and rebuilt using new plastic insulators instead of bakelite. The results were odd. Neutral side was now 0v between chassis and ground (to be expected) but the positive side to chassis was 90v with nothing yet soldered to the socket. Short of ceramic I can't think of anything better tha plastic that can insulate so I'm completely stumped. I reassembled everything and with the disc caps reinstalled both sides are now 60v again. Forget it. I'm going to have to walk away from this one.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_7128.jpg

You know what? I think I'm going to play it safe and stop here for now. No more guessing and replacing hardware until we really know what is wrong. For some odd reason my vertical linearity is skewing itself now and these little issues are starting to creep up.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_7125.jpg

I'll show the schematics to a few more people and see if they can offer any ideas but otherwise I'm completely out of things left to check on any of my current problems. I might even say the hell with it and call it finished.

dont give up Mips-you are close..im impressed by your effort so far-vintage gear can be tough at times...ill try and find some time to assist more.
RonL

Just a heads up- In your photo above showing the two disc caps, a leg of one cap (the upper one) is dangerously close to touching the housing and giving you a hot chassis.

And those ceramic caps should really be replaced with modern AC rated X/Y type line bypass caps anyway....

good catch old coot 88(i didnt see that) and good advice n21xk!
i'm gonna try a 21st century vid phone(skype) service call with mips to get this set sorted out. got a lot going on but will do my best.
did a few basic "virual service calls" over the years with non tech friends with great success so im hopeful. it will be easier with a tech (mips) on the other side of the cam!

heck-its possible to have several videokarma members advising live using tinychat-is this a new better way to assist vintage tv collectors? new trend? ha!

Yeah I'll fire you a message over Skype and I'll see if I can setup for a call in the next day or so. I wonder if I can get the webcam to behave..:scratch2:

In the meantime I fixed that precariously close wire and did a test fit of everything back in the cabinet. It seems I've neglected to notice I've lost a knob. Uses the keying similar to that used for the mode selector but in this case it's for the contrast. We'll talk about looking for that as well. Tuning needle is also out of alignment by an inch, otherwise there wasn't any other problems.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_7151.jpg

Hey Members,
thought i would update on the virtual(skype videophone) service call.

1st of all-Great work Mips!

i found giving tech advice is So much easier/better skypeing than typing-lol! the future perhaps?

problem #1- two waveforms not correct- scope was set to roughly vert freq-when switched to horz freq-waveforms were correct.Mips found this out before the call.

problem#2-too much width-from what i could see, width was close enough-after all, vintage sets are not that accurate-most look fine with designed tolerances at 20%. And i have found over the years that a lot of sets that vintage had very little affect adjusting the width.

problem #3-ac leak to chassis.-leaky ac jack-never seen this one but Mips found the problem before the call.

problem #4-radio dial out a bit- readjust pointer on dial cord to match station frequency being recieved.ussally an easy fix versus an alignment.

problem#4-vertical rolls when adjusting vert height for best picture-height looked good enough to me during the call and vert hold was in the middle of the pot but in hindsite-i should have mentioned that you sometimes have to readjust vert hold while changing vert height/lin-maybe Mips already knew this.

problem #5-knob missing-suggested that Mips post a picture of it on here and arfs classified section.

problem#6-picture is slightly darker near top of crt-thought it might be a neck shadow but didnt quite look that way to me. Mips mentioned that the tv had uneven sunlight casted on it for a long time so perhaps phosphors could have been affected?
in hindsite,i thought that if this is so,you should be able to see a slight difference in the color of the crt phosphor with the set off?
it reminded me of a set i fixed years ago where the set was played for a long time with too little height. by the time i got it, the phosphor was brighter where the scan had missed -looked at 1st glance that there was slight vert"foldover". you could see the different color of the phosphor with the set off!
problem#7-while vert height was being adjusted, a pf range disc cap blew in the horz section-i thought it was just a coincidence-never heard of a cap blowing in horz while adjusting vert section. most likely a original disc cap ready to blow(across the horz yoke iirc)

Problem#7-at one extreme adjusting vert hieght, the scan almost collapses down to aprox 1 inch. but i could see that the vert osc and amp were still working-not a complette collapse-my thoughts are that perhaps with this early desigh, that this is normal. the set can be adjusted for acceptable picture. Mips has replaced most caps(except some ceramics/discs)/checked most resistors.

Question#8 Mips showed me some tubluar ceramic caps and wondered if he should change them-iirc, they are ussally good---Mips-could you repost a picture of those caps?

any thoughts from the forum?
RonL

#6 for anything like this, just turn the yoke and see if the problem moves, or not,
with the new yoke position....

Does it look ok with regular broadcast signal....?

.

Now that I'm spending more time looking over photos of other working sets I guess it seems alright to be missing a few inches from the edges, especially on roundies. Regular broadcasts are fine otherwise but you better hope that shows with subtitles use small text or else you'll be missing the ends. Just look at the photo above for a better idea on how much if the image gets cut off. I can fiddle with the yoke again to see if it is just neck shadow I'm experiencing but under most conditions it's hard to notice. I really like the whole assembly this set uses to support the yoke compared to later computer CRT's I've had to tweak. Everything is either secured with wing nuts or simple screws and it will all stay in place when you are not touching it.

As for those dogbone ceramic caps, there's one in the center of the photo. You can see another one hiding under an orange drop.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/CGS_0952.jpg

Really it's not too hard for me to replace them because new ones cost only a few cents, if not just under a dollar. They just seemed really out of place compared to every other ceramic capacitor in the set and there's three of them in the same general circuit. The width thing was making me pull all sorts of assumptions. Got knows how much time I wasted but hey, at least it was less variables to deal with.

in hindsite-i should have mentioned that you sometimes have to readjust vert hold while changing vert height/lin-maybe Mips already knew this.
I clued in after adjusting them both a few times. ;)

I'm going to replace that one blown disc cap, the filter caps and a couple 220k resistors because what the heck, it's only $1.50 in parts and I believe we're done with the electronics finally. Again, thanks for the help ronl.

Dogbone ceramics are very reliable and have good temperature characteristics. They are only used in sensitive circuits and I wouldn't mess with them. However if you do attempt to replace any, make sure to use mica or CG0/NP0 type ceramics.

Regarding issue #6, I had one CRT whose edges were noticeably brighter than the center area where scanning had occurred. In this photo I used tape to mark the boundaries.

http://antiqueradio.org/art/RCAT-100PurpleCRT03.jpg

My solution was to rotate the CRT so that these areas were hidden by the mask (as they had been originally).

I assumed that this was caused by long use. You can read more about this at http://antiqueradio.org/RCAT-100Television.htm . To test whether the phosphors in your CRT have faded, you can simply rotate your CRT a bit and see whether the shadow rotates, too.

As you have figured out, it's normal with every round CRT for the extreme corners to be cut off. By definition, the TV image is a rectangle, not a circle. The mask on your TV also has rounded corners, so if you adjust height and width to just fit the mask, the extreme corners will still be hidden.

That said, in your last photo the height and width seem excessive. I would normally expect to see all of that big circle. If you reduce the height and width -- as long as you don't create black bars around the edges -- you'll see more of the image.

On some TVs, trying to achieve perfect geometry is a losing battle. I think some TVs were deliberately designed with a little overscan so that customers wouldn't constantly call the repairman when components aged and black bars appeared on the edges. And some sets give you more adjustment leeway than others. If you work with your adjustments long enough, you'll eventually find the best compromise for your particular TV. Then it is time to put away the test patterns and enjoy watching normal programs :)

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Reminds me of the Cheech and Chong audio skit, where one of them pays a visit to see the other, the visitor asks what he's watching on TV. "It's a movie about Indians, but it's really boring". "That's not a movie, that's a test pattern". :D
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a166/ballsandy/IMG_7151.jpg

I think some TVs were deliberately designed with a little overscan so that customers wouldn't constantly call the repairman when components aged and black bars appeared on the edges.
Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

About 10 to 20% overscan was normal for consumer TVs. There are 2 parameters that were (are) used when framing and inserting graphics on images. "Safe Action" and "Safe Title". "Safe Action" is considered about 90% of the rectangular broadcast image where nearly all sets will display that area to the viewer and not cut it off. "Safe Title" is normally considered as 80% of the image where all sets will display and not cut off the titles or graphics. Some professional and broadcast monitors have a "safe title generator" option so the 80% box will be displayed on screen for proper framing of titles in the studio or post production.

I agree that your set seems to overscan a bit more than this.

Here is an image I lifted from the internet illustrating the 2 parameters that I mentioned.

The height can be adjusted with a lot of fiddling with linearity and vertical hold but the width has been the problem that's frustrated me for the last two weeks simply because the only control does pretty much nothing at all. Either the circuit was always a really weak one or I simply can't find the fault. http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-qq.gif

In the absence of a width sleeve or an operative width control, there's a coupla ways to reduce width.

1. increase the value of the resistor feeding the screen grid (G2) of the H output tube. This reduces the voltage on G2.
First try about a 5% increase in value of the resistor, and go from there.

2. Add resistance in the cathode leg of the H output tube. Try 50 ohms as a starting point.

The caveat to these methods is that HV is reduced proportionately with the width.

You could add resistance to the horiz. winding on the yoke.... No real HV issues....
You may have to change the timing cap for the discharge loop..
eh.... probably not....

.

Dammit.
Set has been gradually losing control over vertical hold over the last six months and now it finally reached the point where after a few minutes no fiddling with the vertical hold will cure it. Looking at my old worksheet I've already changed out the resistors around the vertical hold control and the 12BH7 still tests good but there's three other resistors around that tube I can only suspect are drifting out as they warm up.
Back onto the bench it goes. UGHHHHHHHH.

Great job on the cabinet!

Hi MIPS ,
perhaps try anouther vert tube or 2-just because it tests good doesnt mean its gonna work properly in cct or be temp stable.
if you need a tube, i can look through my stash for a free used one.you are not that far so shipping would be cheap, or if you are heading into Van in the next while,feel free to drop by and p/u. if i got a few ,i can send you several to try.
RonL