Picked this Motorola console up yesterday. It was pretty far away from me and more than I would of normally spent but the thing is in near perfect shape. It has a cataract like most do, but it could be worse than it is. The guy told me that he plugged it in and it didnt do anything. I got it home took the back out and gave it a look. none of the tubes look cooked, no brittle wires just dusty. Picture tube was replaced in 72'. Any ideas before it gets put into storage for another 40 years??? :scratch2:

plug it in see what happens. maybe a popped circuit breaker. Typically I do a whole startup process that consist of..

pull Horz Out tube(s)
Pull Vert out tube
DC volt meter on B+
AC volt and AC current on variac
check B+ overall resistance (before doing any power up) should be around 7-10k
it the B+ over all is ok, then crank up the variac and watch for the B+ to come up while keeping an eye on the AC current.

if all goes well I generally go to about 400vdc on the B+ slowly with the variac while feeling the filter caps. If they stay cool and the overall current seems reasonable (about 1 amp for the filaments, the rest of the set with sweep circuits disabled will not pull much), then I will put the output tubes back in and do a full power startup, this time with a HV prob on the CRT anode and a current meter in the horz out tube cathode circuit.

All of the above sounds like a lot, its not, but I just like to play it safe. You could just plug it in, see if anything lights up, if completely dead I would suspect the power switch or a circuit breaker. If the tube start to glow then you could just wait and see, keeping an eye open for smoke.

I did try to just plug it in after I posted. Nothing. Circuit breaker seems to me normal, I sprayed a little cleaner in case it was stuck. I dont know about the power switch. Pull on push off twist for volume. I guess I could jump it, I dont have any extra switches like that, although I have a few tv's I could snag one from...... I get a nice hardy click when I pull the switch but Im sure that doesnt mean anything.. Is it really worth trying to get to work? I know some early colors are fussy but Ive never really come across a moto. :scratch2:

Picked this Motorola console up yesterday. It was pretty far away from me and more than I would of normally spent but the thing is in near perfect shape. It has a cataract like most do, but it could be worse than it is. The guy told me that he plugged it in and it didnt do anything. I got it home took the back out and gave it a look. none of the tubes look cooked, no brittle wires just dusty. Picture tube was replaced in 72'. Any ideas before it gets put into storage for another 40 years??? :scratch2:

That's the first production run of the TS908 chassis. It still uses the octal base horizontal output tubes and vertical output tube.
The CRT looks like a Sylvania rebuilt, with the yellowing resin. :scratch2:

You are right it is a Sylvania tube

Before going any further I would check for continuity of the primary side. Just alligator your meter leads across the A/C cord input and cycle the power switch. If nothing then short out the switch. If still an issue then you may need to pull the chassis and do some point to point checks. I would not plug it in until you find out what's open.

sometimes is just the plug too. check the AC cord out.

It isnt the plug... I used a different one with the back off. Im going to take a peek under the chassis in a bit.

Does the set use a thermal degauss relay? If so, it was a frequent failure point. I don't remember if it was on the primary or secondary side of the xfmr. Been a lotta years.

From my years working on those, be sure to check the CRT. If bad you may want to reconsider your goals. The general consensus of the period, and my opinion, was the 23EGP was the worst (and definitely the most expensive) CRT of the period. And not all sets can be converted to the 25AP/XP CRT.
Also check the condition of the tube sockets on the main board for being brittle and bad pin contacts with the tubes. Over the years I had to replace more sockets on those sets than I care to think about.
Good luck and have fun.
Phil

you know when you plug a tv in for the first time or after ones been sitting for a bit and the lights dim for a split second when you plug it in? it doesnt even do that. I guess id call it "charging up" but it doesnt do a thing. I was thinking of jumping the circuit breaker and seeing what happens. I dont want the thing to explode or catch on fire though.. I have a feeling thats the culprit.

Nice find! My parents had a B&W Moto with the same cabinet. By the time I came around it was their bedroom set and a '68 Quasar was in the living room.

Those were one of the first rectangular color CRT sets ever. They sold really well at the time. I've read in a couple of places that they even outsold Zenith color consoles for a short time. However, there seems to be few of them left, probably because of the CRT problems.

This may sound simplistic, but did you check for continuity in the power cord? Are you sure your outlet is still working? If there's a dead short in the TV it could have tripped the breaker on your outlet.

If you don't plan to keep it and you're anywhere close, let me know.

i used a modernized version of the power cord thats interlocked to the back, back off cord in and no power at all. outlet works, I dont have any sketchy ones in my house. Is it possible to bypass the breaker? theres one thick red wire to it and a thinner one on the other side. I took the service panel off the bottom and put the set on its side. Not one melted or burnt cap. i dont know what to make of it. Im in CT, so if you are close by I will keep ya in mind...

In most sets I've seen the breaker is in the B+ line so it should not cause the filaments not to light. In your shoes I'd trace the power cord from one prong to the other and find where it is open circuit. Jumper bridge any opens you find...Except for the power transformer primary(if that is open you are more or less SOL).

If I had a 23EGP based set I'd check that the CRT still has good emission before spending much time or money on it.

when i tipped the set on its side a round magnet looking piece fell out. i found where it was, between these 2 wires soldered on. could that MAYBE be the issue? im thinking about soldering it back in, but that seems way too easy and i dont see how a magnet would complete the entire circuit for the set? its a magnet a little bigger than in inch between the 2 wires shown in the picture

That's a Thermistor, either for the Degausser or to soft start the set.
One type increases resistance with heat, the other decreases.

You could twist the wires together and see if it makes a difference but if it is the degausser you don't want to run it long that way because it could burn up the coil.

If the tubes light up and you don't hear a loud humming sound from the degaussing coil then it's probably okay to run it.

You can also try to solder it back together, if it sticks together then it should work.

could that be why im not getting any power? it does look cooked off, is it possible to solder it back on? ill use insulated pliers to twist them together, i dont need a zap tonight!

I'm pretty sure that was a varistor or thermistor not a magnet.

when i tipped the set on its side a round magnet looking piece fell out. i found where it was, between these 2 wires soldered on. could that MAYBE be the issue? im thinking about soldering it back in, but that seems way too easy and i dont see how a magnet would complete the entire circuit for the set? its a magnet a little bigger than in inch between the 2 wires shown in the picture

It's a surge limiting thermistor. It might be in the transformer primary circuit.
Just jumper it for now and see if the set powers up. Those sets were so reliable, outside of the CRT, I don't remember all the problems, that were related to that chassis.

could that be why im not getting any power? it does look cooked off, is it possible to solder it back on? ill use insulated pliers to twist them together, i dont need a zap tonight!

Just be sure it's unplugged before you do.

ok, well im going to give it a try and see what happens.

Eric thank you. that made it turn on and no hum. the tubes started to light up but i got nervous and shut it off LOL.

when i leave the set on for about 30 seconds theres a crackle static noise coming from the back..it isnt the speaker either... theres no smoke, no arcing that i can see but i cut the power quick. im not sure if its the guns or something.. it sounds like its coming from the yoke. do the old color set sound like this normally or is something cook'n?

That's called a thermistor. It's purpose is to divert electricity to the degaussing coil on start up. It gets very hot doing it's thing. So hot that it eventually falls off the two leads.
The power supply is wired so the electricity has to go through the thermistor before reaching the transformer. Bad thermistor = no electricity to primary of power transformer = dead set.
Twist the leads together (solder if possible) and you will get power to the transformer.

i jumped it with mini alligator clips for now, it did power up but the crackling at about 30-45 seconds its nerve racking- it sounds like the static you get when you shut off a set thats been on for hours.... the picture tube doesnt really have a chance to fire because i cut the power before it would due to the noise.

Sorry guys, I failed to notice there is a page 2.

Rob, that's the fun of playing with the unknown. You get the nerve racking experience. But you have a bunch of good guys covering your back.

Give me the exact model number and a private message. I'll send you a copy of the schematic (Sams Photofact). You'll need it.

Phil

i sent you a message, thanks guys for all the help so far

The crackle is probably the high voltage coming up, it's normal.
Turn up the brightness and check for light on the screen.

i will check tomorrow on that and keep everyone posted- im gonna call it quits for the night. lets just hope i dont cook it tomorrow ;)

i wanted to throw this out there too... the crackle i hear is kind of loud, but gradually builds the longer i leave the set on.. so if it is the high voltage, it may just sound loud because i have the back off, thats my only guess

sorry got behind did not see you got the HV going.

What he jumpered was the surge protector thermistor in the AC line coming in.

Just curious, what does the schematic show for the degausser?
On the Motos that I remember (Moto was not our house brand, so we didn't service many of them), the degausser was some kinda strange thermal 'relay' device mounted on the front chassis apron. The part was reputedly very troublesome, though we never had occasion to replace one.

Or does this set use the standard thermistor/varistor setup?

If the HV crackles loudly for more then 10 seconds after power up then something is arcing and that arcing will need to be fixed.

Has the set been stored in a dry place? If damp you could be getting some corona from that, no big deal really. I suspect the noise is normal, can be caused by excessive dust though this one seems pretty clean. Hard to say for sure without being there in person. I would normally just stand back and let it go, see what happens. Have one hand near the power switch, just in case. Remember, it won't jump up and attack you-the worst that can happen is something will fail. I'll say, I think this is a desirable set. An attractive design, to my eyes, and I think Motorolas have lots of character. If you can't figure it out, don't junk the set. Somebody else on here would love to have it, I'm sure.

Nice set there;). What is the number of the replacement CRT in there? Just Curious.

That thermistor is not required but helps your set's components last longer by limiting inrush current to the transformer.
A type CL-60 thermistor will carry 5 amps and can be used in place.

BTW my first repair, to my childhood TV a 1962 Motorola 19" BW, went exactly like this;
mystery part open= thermistor, hissing crackles=arcing high voltage

Good Luck, Id have driven hours for a set like that too

the set is pretty dusty inside, and it was actually in the old owners living room all of its life until i got it. Im gonna brush the dust out and give it a go when the comes up...

sun comes up... 5:15 is too early on a sunday

heres some good news guys... i turned up the brightness, turned up the sound a little, cleaned the controls and all the dust, cross my fingers plugged it in and got..................... a nice bright screen with snow and sound :)

Hurray!!!!!! You got a good one!

i hooked it up to the dtv converter box, it does get a picture but its black and white?

well... i turned the color killer on the back of the set a little, turned it on and i had some color when it came on, but it cracked the screen tinted green and i shut it off. looks like its gonna need some work after all ;)

What he jumpered was the surge protector thermistor in the AC line coming in.

Just curious, what does the schematic show for the degausser?
On the Motos that I remember (Moto was not our house brand, so we didn't service many of them), the degausser was some kinda strange thermal 'relay' device mounted on the front chassis apron. The part was reputedly very troublesome, though we never had occasion to replace one.

Or does this set use the standard thermistor/varistor setup?

The little later model TS908 used the thermal relay. The set in this thread uses the push-button deguasser, located near the antenna terminals. It was kind of a strange circuit, that used the boost source. There was an AC capacitor in series with the coil. :scratch2:

well... i turned the color killer on the back of the set a little, turned it on and i had some color when it came on, but it cracked the screen tinted green and i shut it off.

The CRT cracked?

*******crackled and hissed like something was burning up. sorry typo. i didnt smell smoke though but im sure something fried. it only did it though when i shut it off and adjusted the color killer and turned it back on.

*******crackled and hissed like something was burning up. sorry typo. i didnt smell smoke though but im sure something fried. it only did it though when i shut it off...
Sounds normal if it's a transient 'crackle' lasting a second or two. As the High (positive) Voltage inside the CRT drops rapidly to zero, a negative-going charge is coupled capacitively to the outside of the CRT glass.
...and turned it back on.
Again, normal if the crackle lasts only a second or two. As the HV comes up, a positive-going charge is coupled capacitively to the outside of the CRT glass.
If the hiss/crackle continues while the set is running, that would indicate a problem.

any idea how to get some color on the screen? LOL i dont want to touch anymore adjustments til' im sure

aside from turning the color level knob CW, fine tuning can have a great effect on color reception. Typically you tune CW until you get sound interference on the screen then back off just until it goes away. You can crank the color killer fully CCW.

If you are not getting any color snow with the color killer fully CW (you should be able to see BW snow and color snow by adjusting the color killer), then you prob need some tubes in the color circuit. maybe a dead color osc tube for starters. I would just sub in some new tube in the chroma circuits, starting with the osc.

yea i tried the color killer both ways and didnt get any color. i dont know where the sets fine tuning is or if it even has one. I need 3 bulbs for the set, it has the projecting controls and they all are dead. Ill look around, i may or may not have some tubes that will work in this. will adjusting the individual colors make a difference? i have no idea if anyone has ever toyed with any of them

Fine tuning should be the outer ring of the VHF tuner knob... And no you should not adjust individual color knobs at this time.... You can, with the set off, pull out any tube with "color" in its description from the tube chart, and put it back in. That will kinda clean some oxide off the pins, might get color flowing again..... Be careful....

there is no fine tuning ring... its just a vhf and a separate (i think because the bulbs are blown projector dials) uhf tuner. neither of them have fine tuning. the front panel has hue, intensity, pull on push off twist volume, vertical, bright, tone and contrast... im cleaning up all the controls and all the tube sockets.. i still dont know what will even happen if its on for a minute or 2... ill find out soon.

Do you push in on the knobs and twist to fine tune?

thank you.... ;)

i cleaned all the tube sockets, played with the fine tuning and still no color :(.. would letting it run for more than a minute or 2 make a difference?

i want to add this as well... if i switch the service switch in the back i get a nice line of red green blue across the screen. im lost

Do you have a way to hook up a signal source like from a VCR?

Here's an ad from Sep. 1964 when Motorola introduced these sets:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-EgEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA46&dq=esperanto&pg=PA46#v=onepage&q=esperanto&f=false

i have a vcr dvd combo set to it now.... still no color.. only color when the service switch is flicked... i know you cant tell in the picture but its a perfect RGB line through it

The service switch is not producing color video. All it does is disable the vertical deflection. When you flip the service switch you should have a single white line if your convergence is not mis-adjusted(Which it likely is since you are seeing RGB lines).
Also do not run the set with the service switch in the position pictured for more than a couple of seconds without the brightness control turned down or you will PERMANENTLY burn those lines in to your screen.
I'd ignore the service switch and convergence until you get your color back as those adjustments should not have affect on your lack of color.

Btw is this your first time working on a tube color set?

this is my first time working on a color set. i didnt leave the set on more than 20 seconds with the switch flipped. im out of idea for the color. i guess it is what it is!

Get a schematic, a test pattern DVD, and an oscilloscope and start comparing waveforms in the color circuits to those shown on the schematic.
Once you get good at signal tracing the problems that can stump you will be far fewer in number.

Actually, if you hook up your DTV box, then set the tv to channel 3 and get a B&W picture, you should verify that your fine tuning knob is actually working..... Can you fully de-tune the channel you are getting a signal from...? 3, or 4, whatever you are using..... And you should get past the leaving the set on for only 30 seconds.... Some of these old sets need a few minutes for the color to work, If it comes on after a few minutes, that's a clue to fixing it....

I can detune from channel 3 til' i get just snow.. how safe is it to let it run for a few minutes? i dont wanna kill it.. but i will give that a try tomorrow, i thought id get color right when the picture came, i never thought ya woulda had to wait a few minutes to get a color picture

The round indicator between the hue and intensity controls is will light red when a burst signal is present (indicating color broadcast with correct fine tuning).
In 1965 there were many BW programs and unless color was being broadcast, you did not want to try adjusting those two controls in vain.

Have you tried swapping the five 6BL8 tubes in chroma stages? That would be a good start. If you take the two chroma IF 6BL8s and swap them with the two demod tubes, then swap the color sync amp, FINALLY go after that 6GH8, used as the color osc, you'll need a new one to be sure, those were troublemakers.

When you move set up switch, I was taught to bring each G2 screen control up (these are behind the escutcheon under the brightness and contrast controls) and back it off until the line just disappears, repeat for all three colors. You should have a fairly gray picture when you are done, only then you adjust the green and blue drive controls to finish up. Then turn up the master G2 control next to the screen controls to get the needed brightness.

I can detune from channel 3 til' i get just snow.. how safe is it to let it run for a few minutes? i dont wanna kill it.. but i will give that a try tomorrow, i thought id get color right when the picture came, i never thought ya woulda had to wait a few minutes to get a color picture

The snow is what you see when no signal is present (a channel with no signal).

color snow shows the color osc is working, generally the color killer is adjusted by switching to an unused channel, and adjusting the color killer until the snow color just goes away and all that is left it BW snow.

Fine tuning is just that, turn the knob to a channel with a signal, then adjust the fine tuning as I described. Is should go from smeary B&W to good color and then if you continue to sound bars in the picture and finally to loss of sync. The correct fine tuning is just before the sound interference on the pic.

did not know it had a burst indicator, nice gimmick.

Well... i have a new 6GH8 coming after chirstmas, I dont have any tubes hanging around that will work with this. I suspect the 6GH8 probably is the problem, if not then Ill just replace every tube one by one. I havent tried adjusting it the way you explained, so in the mean time i'll give that a try.

I will make a video in a bit of how to adj color killer and fine tuning later. The color killer is only there to deal with weak OTA B&W programming. You could just set it to max CCW but I like to set things up correctly.

well.. i had one of my friends come over and adjust the tv while it was on. hes clueless about them but he has no fear being back there while its on :D anyways, i put a tape in the vhs and he was turning the color killer slowly and i got a black and white picture still, but there was stray color in the picture. he touched the vertical lin adjustment in the back and the picture came in the best it has yet, black and white with stray color. i guess this is progress?

I see not color at all. the bit at the top is just misconverged macro vision. the pic is general seems snowy I assume you have a matching transformer 75-300ohm. a weak signal will have snow and maybe no color.

You're getting there. You can probably run it as long as you want BUT don't leave the room while its on, not yet....
Contrast seems lacking, try the AGC control until it gets dark and picture bends, then back it off.
Try cleaning the tuner contacts, looks a bit weak for a VCR source.
The gray scale and retrace lines (dashes across top) show all your colors are working.

Can you get the color indicator light to come on?

yes the colors are working but the tuner does seem kind of weak... could i clean the adjustments in the back or is that asking for trouble? i cant tell what the tubes are doing up there in the tuner.. ill have to pull them out and check out the sockets..

Need to clarify some terms.

all the color guns are working (gets a BW pic needs all guns working)

Color is working, color is demodulating, in this case Color is NOT working.

Snow looks like snow generally seen when no signal is present or a weak signal is present. In your case you have snow in the pic. IF no pic and no snow then that would point to a tuner or IF issue.

Snow with pic could be

weak signal from source
bad balun at tuner
bad matching trans if used
dirty contracts (generally you can get a better pic by just messing with tuner by turning it show this up)
weak RF tube
AGC issues

dirty tuner is typical but again just using it (channing channels) will often point to this problem.

there is a correct way to clean a tuner, more on that later if that is the problem.

You dont need to change or clean the controls in the back. First of all you should be able to get a completely clear B&W picture with a properly connected VCR. There should be no snow. You may need to check or just change the RF amp tube in the tuner or maybe a bad balun. I would also check the IF tubes in the set as well. The fine tunning control will also impact the snow on the screen. Get a good clear B&W picture first. Then worry about the color. You likely have no burst or the chroma oscillator is not working. There is a color indicator light on the front between the color and hue controls on the front. Does it come on while playing the tape. If you cant get it to come on then look at the Burst amp and Chroma Bandpass amplifier circuits. If it comes on but you still have no color the refrence oscillator may not be running. Don't worry about things like demodulator tubes and color set up or convergence yet. That 6gh8 tube may very well be bad and will cause no color. I would bet there are some bad caps in the color circuits as well. On the plus side it looks like you have a good 23EGP22 CRT. That is a plus in itself. You have high voltage, and the horizontal and vertical circuits are working. Looks like a pretty good start and a nice cabinet as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAk9lKv03zA

should be ready in about 50min per youtube, covers snow/color killer adj, fine tuning and matching transformers.

One last thing, always think the easy problem 1st. Make sure you VCR is putting out a good clean color pic. See if you have a Known good working tv set and use what ever you cable/transformer setup on that (eliminate as many variable as possible) to confirm you are getting a good signal. Before the loss of analog tv this was easy, now you are forced to use various RF modulators (built into VCR or separates) that may or may not be so good.

Great start so far! :-) That's a very nice Motorola, definitely worth fixing up, especially since it looks like the 23EGP22 CRT is good. Too bad you don't live closer, or I'd try to help you with it some. That Motorola was about the first (earliest US made) rectangular picture tube set, Zenith and RCA, and many others were still selling those great "roundies" at the same time that Motorola was new. Best of luck with your set.

Does the set have more than one 6GH8 in it? try swapping them and see if the symptoms change.

i can get a clear picture i adjusted the AGC and got good contrast and no snow. only thing is theres lines running horizontally at the top of the screen. i havent cleaned the tuner yet, i will in a bit..

if you are getting a clean snow free pic do not clean the tuner. those horz lines are macrovision and not a fault of the TV. Watch my video listed for how to setup the fine tune.

i just tried switching some of the tube- i switched 3 of them around, now the thing doesnt show any picture at all

no picture no sound... looks like ill need a few 6BL8's

before messing with the tubes did you do any of the stuff I recommened?

check the signal

adj the fine tune

If not I am out.

the signal is good, i use my converter box and vhs/dvd daily on my 80's zenith space command. i got the tv going again, a tube was half out... the tuner is screwy. i get no picture but then if i push on the tuner to the right it comes in nice and clear, but black and white

Did you adj the fine tuning per my video? Try it while doing what ever you are doing to get a BW pic

the idea here is to isolate the color issue to tuner bandpass or color circuits.

i did adjust the fine tuning. i have to push on the tuner though for the picture to come in clear. its working again, black and white but something is up with the tuner.

Rob,
If you're on channel 3 with the VCR, try switching it (or changing it in set-up menu) to channel 4. Then change the TV to 4 . Or vice-versa. its possible your Motorola's tuner may not have the fine tuning range on the channel you are using. If you have to push the tuning knob in for it to come in at all, wiggle the tuner tubes or the tuning knob to verify if you have a connection issue.
DG

You're probably doing the TV a favor by letting it run. It needs to get warm to get the dampness out of the electronics.

You're getting there. It's got a picture!!

Well that piece isn't a magnet, it's the degauss thermister, and yea, if it is open or in this case falls apart, set will be dead. Maybe the tubes may light up, but no B+ to operate the set. If you like to try it out, just twist the loose wires together and see if the set powers up. Usually it's a 120 Ohm thermister (cold), and it drops in value as it heats up. Giving the set a slower warm up and also runs the automatic degaussing. Also check for a large black round varister with 2 leads in the degauss circuit, usually near the thermister. If it is fried, it needs to be replaced as well. Set will work with out it, just won't degauss the crt. I have a 120 ohm degauss thermister if you need one. I'll send you it free.

Sorry, only read first page of post, didn't realize you got the set going.

Walter,
Read post# 42 re. The auto-degauss setup.

Do you have a way to hook up a signal source like from a VCR?

Here's an ad from Sep. 1964 when Motorola introduced these sets:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-EgEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA46&dq=esperanto&pg=PA46#v=onepage&q=esperanto&f=false

Love that ad link - but check out the Admiral "Copenhagen" ad on page 65!