I am trying to use an indoor DTV antenna with my flat screen TV, but am having some problems. I get most Cleveland TV stations very well, with the exception of two (channels 8 and 19). These stations transmit on high VHF DTV channels, not UHF, so for some reason my indoor DTV antenna does not receive them. Isn't there an FCC rule stating that all DTV stations must transmit on UHF channels? The stations I do not get happen to be the two channels I watch the most -- CBS 19, with MeTV on 19.2, and FOX 8, with Antenna TV on 8.2. What do I need in terms of an antenna to get these channels along with the rest of the DTV stations I just mentioned? I live on the first floor of a two-story apartment building, located roughly 35 miles east of downtown Cleveland near the south shore of Lake Erie. I am getting every local channel (including 8/8.2 and 19/19.2) on cable at this time, but I've been thinking of using an indoor antenna because of the better picture quality on the channels I do receive here. I have been informed that I would need a rather large outdoor antenna to get the two high VHF DTV channels my small indoor DTV antenna does not receive, but I don't want to go to the trouble of installing such an antenna if I can avoid it.

I have been seeing ads on TV for an indoor DTV antenna called "Clear TV", which looks much larger than the UHF DTV antenna I already have, and have found out on the company's website that the antenna will in fact receive both high VHF and UHF DTV channels; if this is in fact true, this antenna could solve all my reception problems. Has anyone here ever heard of this antenna, and if so, what results can be expected from it in my area? If, for any reason, the Clear TV antenna will not work here for the stations I mentioned, are there any other indoor DTV antennas that can pull in every local DTV station in Cleveland? I am not interested in DX reception, just local digital TV from Cleveland. My cable service (currently expanded basic) from Time Warner is great, but the rates keep going up every year (!) so I'm looking for a reliable OTA indoor digital antenna.

Thanks much for any and all replies and advice.

I am trying to use an indoor DTV antenna with my flat screen TV, but am having some problems. I get most Cleveland TV stations very well, with the exception of two (channels 8 and 19). These stations transmit on high VHF DTV channels, not UHF, so for some reason my indoor DTV antenna does not receive them. Isn't there an FCC rule stating that all DTV stations must transmit on UHF channels? No there is not. We have two here, Ch 8 on VHF 8, and Ch 52 on VHF 9. In fact with the coming FCC repacking of TV channels you may see more moving down to VHF. You need an antenna that will work below 200 mHz. Those little indoor antennas generally don't.

[/B]No there is not. We have two here, Ch 8 on VHF 8, and Ch 52 on VHF 9. In fact with the coming FCC repacking of TV channels you may see more moving down to VHF. You need an antenna that will work below 200 mHz. Those little indoor antennas generally don't.

What is meant by "repacking" of TV channels, and why on earth would the FCC want to move stations to VHF channels when most such DTV channels are already on UHF? :scratch2: Doesn't make a lot of sense to move the stations to VHF channels, as there is more room for expansion (at least there used to be) in the UHF band than there ever was on VHF. Seems to me as if the DTV transition is causing more problems than it is solving.

BTW, I guess that answers my question regarding the indoor DTV antenna I currently have and the one I was thinking of purchasing. The manufacturer of the latter claims the antenna will receive high VHF channels as well as UHF, but from your comments I'm thinking the antenna doesn't do that great a job receiving signals in either range.

I guess I'm going to be stuck with cable from now on. . . . Oh well. My cable service is part of a three-way bundle (cable, home phone and Internet) from Time Warner, so I'm probably better off anyway as far as rates are concerned. I couldn't downgrade or cancel my cable if I wanted to, since the company charges a stiff early termination fee for cancellation of any service offered in a bundle before the contract's expiration date. Besides all that, cable is a must in this area for good DTV reception; before digital, most folks around here got by with outdoor antennas and, in some cases, rabbit ears, but the DTV transition changed all that. Most of the outdoor TV antennas here, many of which were anywhere from 20 to 50 or more years old, have either been taken down or are falling apart, having been replaced by cable or satellite.

Oh well, again. :sigh: Such is life in the 21st century.

What is meant by "repacking" of TV channels, and why on earth would the FCC want to move stations to VHF channels when most such DTV channels are already on UHF? :scratch2:

Will help explain it.

http://www.broadcastlawblog.com/tags/repacking-of-tv-spectrum/



btw the FCC ruled back in 1990s renters CAN put up a TV antenna or small dish.

http://www.fcc.gov/guides/over-air-reception-devices-rule

"The rule (47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000) has been in effect since October 1996, and it prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming. The rule applies to video antennas including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37") in diameter (or of any size in Alaska), TV antennas, and wireless cable antennas. The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use; (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal.

Effective January 22, 1999, the Commission amended the rule so that it also applies to rental property where the renter has an exclusive use area, such as a balcony or patio."

You DO have a choice. :thmbsp:

Hi All;
The Best antenna around here, that I have used, Is a home made one out of Coat Hangers, (4 ea) Cut in half and mounted on a Board..
THANK YOU Marty

Antenna web
http://antennaweb.org/Stations.aspx?Address=&City=Painesville&State=OH&ZIP=&Housing=S&Accuracy=4&Height=6&Obstructed=False&StationList=&Lat=41.7500431&Lon=-81.2739916
predicts you need a large antenna for those stations even at attic/roof height. I would not expect success with an indoor antenna on the first floor.

It is at times like this I wish the FCC hadn't done away with analog TV. At least with analog, most people within reasonable distances of the stations (even here in my area, which is 35 miles east of downtown Cleveland) could get some reception; with digital, it is all or nothing, and the antenna requirements are too strict, IMO. That is why I said in my post that I am stuck with cable, but I think I'm better off this way since I get more stations on cable (the two digital subchannels I cannot receive using my small Clear Cast DTV indoor antenna being the ones I watch the most, plus other entertainment networks like TBS, TNT, A&E, et al.) than I ever received with an OTA antenna, either here or where I used to live. The latter is an eastern suburb of Cleveland, about 16 miles from downtown, and has very good reception from all Cleveland TV stations. My current residence is located in a small town 35 miles from the downtown area of Cleveland, with the TV transmitters located probably 10-15 miles further southwest of the city in a western suburb. Despite this, I get amazingly good DTV reception here, using my Clear Cast DTV indoor antenna, from all but two stations -- the aforementioned channels 8 and 19. I'm almost certain the reason I cannot receive these two channels with an indoor antenna is because they both operate on VHF DTV channels; channel 8 on 8 and 19 on 10. My Clear Cast DTV indoor antenna is designed for UHF reception only, so it will not receive anything below the lower edge of whatever is left of the UHF TV spectrum. Channels 14 to 51 come to mind; in fact, I read online this afternoon that this is actually all that is in fact left of what was the UHF television spectrum. Even these channels may be next in line in the near future to be auctioned off to land mobile and other radio services, if what I was reading (a broadcast law blog) is any reliable indicator of what may be in store for the remains of the UHF television spectrum.

I also found out what I wanted to know about repacking TV channels. The entire DTV channel assignment system seems about to be completely overhauled, with new DTV assignments eventually being made on VHF channels 2 through 13; existing UHF assignments will remain as they are.

I have to wonder about the wisdom of this, however, since there are only so many TV stations that can be assigned to VHF channels; add to this the problems of skip, co-channel interference, et al. and it could add up to a real mess during peak or downright unusual propagation conditions, such as temperature inversions. I remember being able to receive incredible TV DX on channel 2 in the 1970s-'80s; I was getting stations at one point from as far away as Cheyenne, Wyoming one afternoon on the TV in my living room at the time, and one summer when I was getting WPBT (PBS) in Miami on channel 2 on my little Zenith J121Y 12" portable with rabbit ears. I was able to see this station on channel 2 for five days in a row. Other amazing channel 2 DX I snagged from my former home included stations from Texas, Colorado, Oklahoma . . . just about everywhere in the southwestern US except Arizona, Louisiana, New Mexico and Utah. The reason I was getting stations from that region of the country was most likely because of exceptional propagation conditions from my home at the time in suburban Cleveland to the Southwest, and the fact that my TV antenna was oriented southwest to receive the Cleveland TV stations, all seven of which had (and still have) their transmitters in two southwestern suburbs of the city.

Repacking the nation's DTV stations on VHF channels (if it comes to that) is, IMO, a very bad idea, for the reasons I just mentioned. Unless the FCC is considering reassigning what's left of the UHF TV spectrum to other services, repacking stations on the much smaller VHF band could, and very likely will, cause more problems than it will solve.

I also found out what I wanted to know about repacking TV channels...

I have to wonder about the wisdom of this, however, since there are only so many TV stations that can be assigned to VHF channels; add to this the problems of skip, co-channel interference, et al. and it could add up to a real mess during peak or downright unusual propagation conditions, such as temperature inversions. I've questioned the wisdom of taking TV channels Ch 36-50 (600 mHz +) for wireless broadband use. Who the hell wants to use something the size of a UHF TV antenna to have wireless broadband? What they should go after is more desirable spectrum above 2 gHz for that purpose and leave what's left of TV alone for now. They've already taken away Ch's 51-83. FCC is finally starting to rearrange things up in the 5 gHz band which makes more sense to me.

The VHF DTV station serving my area has added THREE! UHF channel translators in an attempt to eliminate dead spots in its designated market area (DMA). The other much weaker but local VHF channel shows as green (per tvfool.com/call sign lookup tab) at my location yet requires a large, outdoor VHF antenna for reliable reception without an amp.
The "local" UHF DTV stations have had relatively little trouble in comaprison.

My extensive experimentation with new, vintage and homemade antennas bear out these findings:
Rabbit ears worked OK for analog VHF, but not at all for digital VHF (mutipath kills DTV)
Loops, bowties, etc for UHF still work fine except in locations of extreme multipath
Most rooftop UHF antennas will usually pick up channels in its former analog range.
Small VHF roof antennas that received suburban-range or near-fringe analog NO LONGER do so, yet they seem to work fine on local UHF:scratch2:.
For VHF, size does matter:D, making installations in apartments impossible and attics very difficult. Even my largest VHF antennas(similar to the CM3671 or Winegard HD8200 in range) need a booster to receive the two VHF channels each from Baltimore and Philadelphia, something that just a medium sized VHF antenna received fairly good in analog.

I guess I am saying here that while politicians and telecom businesses try to obfuscate the facts, TV coverage will be directed to VHF, a band that is more troublesome for DTV and away from UHF for reasons unknown.

One place digital VHF seems to be better is in heavily wooded areas upstate. As it always was for analog. UHF is impossible to get in low-lying, wooded and hilly terrain.
VHF has the advantage of penetrating heavy vegetation and bending (knife-edge effect) over hilltops, yet actually seems worse in more densely populated areas closer to the transmitter. One explanation is the susceptibility to harmonic interference from some newer fluorescent lamp ballasts and other electronic gagetry.

There is a low-band VHF holdout, WPVI-TV 6 (formerly WFIL), to maintain its "branding" like WRGB in Albany. Due to the lack of adequate input bandpass filtering on Digital TV and set top boxes tuners and effects of very strong adjacent FM stations, WPVI had to apply for some power increases to overcome this. This has been documented in FCC reports after the conversion.

I just ordered a Clear TV digital antenna for the heck of it. Since the website (www.buycleartv.com) states this antenna will receive high VHF as well as UHF DTV signals, and the price was right ($19.95, excluding shipping and handling), I decided to give it a try in my area. As I have mentioned in other posts, my Clear Cast DTV indoor antenna flopped miserably here due to the fact that it does not receive high-VHF stations; there are two such DTV stations in Cleveland, on channels 8.1/8.2 (VHF 8) and 19.1/19.2 (VHF 10). The rest are on UHF and are receivable perfectly well with the indoor Clear-Cast. I realize I am taking a gamble on the Clear TV antenna receiving the high-VHF stations, but I think it will be worth it to experiment with the antenna to see just how well it works here.

My next post to this thread will be the results of my experiments with the Clear TV indoor DTV antenna, but don't expect it until the antenna arrives here -- probably within a week or so (I placed the order at 11:30 p.m., February 25, 2013). As with the Clear Cast, I'm not expecting miracles, but if it brings in all the DTV stations in this area (including channel 55.3, which is the THIS TV subchannel of Cleveland CW network affiliate WBNX; Time Warner Cable doesn't carry it at this time), I will be happy. If it doesn't work as well as I'm hoping it will, I can probably list it on eBay or Craigslist and get my investment back, so I have little or nothing to lose either way.

Good luck with it! Maybe they figured out how to defeat the laws of physics. :D

Good luck with it! Maybe they figured out how to defeat the laws of physics. :D

Jeff, You are to be commended for the consumer-reports style analysis of these little "wonders". :yes:

The fractal antennas used in wireless devices seem to allow reception regardless of device orientation. But they do not need to cheat on size since the frequency requires a postage-stamp sized antenna anyway!

Good luck with it! Maybe they figured out how to defeat the laws of physics. :D

I suspect that the laws of physics will *not* suffer defeat in this case... the antenna is only 7-3/4 inches square! A half wave dipole cut for the middle of the VHF high band is about 26inches. The Clear antenna will have very little gain on the high VHF band. Sorry!

jr

PS... I *also* believe that the power levels set by the FCC for digital transmission on the VHF bands were poorly calculated/based on incorrect assumptions. :(

I got a hold of an antique UHF antenna, strange looking device that I found at the Early Television Convention last summer. Hooked it up to my 50" plasma in my basement level family room, and guess what I got 3 more PBS channels that I could barely pick up before with my regular rabbit ear antenna, and picture doesn't even pixelize unless we have really crappy weather.

For some reason I can't click that image to make it better.

The reason it works so well is that digital TV is made up of ones and zeroes.
The ones are easy to pick up with a plain stick antenna.
The pictured antenna is obviously for the zeroes.

Chip

The reason it works so well is that digital TV is made up of ones and zeroes.
The ones are easy to pick up with a plain stick antenna.
The pictured antenna is obviously for the zeroes.

Chip

And if you wire the stick in parallel with the one pictured you will be able to tune all the TVs on the air worldwide. :D

I don't know about that. I live in an area that does not get the CBS or FOX television stations from Cleveland with an OTA antenna. These just happen to be the stations the subchannels of which I watch the most, and it bothers me that I must have cable to see them.

I'm not even sure connecting a standard TV antenna (I guess that's what is meant by a "stick") would bring in the two channels I do not get in digital. I don't know why I don't get those two channels without cable, when every other Cleveland TV station comes in here very well on an antenna. I am guessing it is because channels 8 and nineteen transmit their DTV signals on VHF channels, with the rest transmitting on UHF stations. Another thing that bothers me: My DTV antenna brings in the stations it does get, and well, but the channel list is repeated, in effect showing the same channel twice on one list. Why is this, and what (if anything) can I do to eliminate the duplication of the channel list? It is frustrating and annoying, to say the least, to see my TV bringing in 20+ digital channels (as shown on the scan list), only to find out half those channels are duplicates.

Hmmm. I wonder. If I could get hold of an all-channel indoor TV antenna like a Rembrandt (the kind with the 102" dipoles, the crossed UHF loops, and the 12-position tuning switch), would I finally be able to get channels eight and 19 in digital? Are those antennas even available anywhere anymore? :scratch2: I'll look on eBay; there might be at least one such antenna there. I see on that site just about everything else pertaining to television (including outdoor antennas and even antique rabbit ears), so someone might very well have one up for auction, even as I write this.

I don't know about that. I live in an area that does not get the CBS or FOX television stations from Cleveland with an OTA antenna. These just happen to be the stations the subchannels of which I watch the most, and it bothers me that I must have cable to see them.

My DTV antenna brings in the stations it does get, and well, but the channel list is repeated, in effect showing the same channel twice on one list. Why is this, and what (if anything) can I do to eliminate the duplication of the channel list? It is frustrating and annoying, to say the least, to see my TV bringing in 20+ digital channels (as shown on the scan list), only to find out half those channels are duplicates.


Quick thoughts:

1) I forgot if you said before (and you don't say here) if you are using an outdoor antenna. VHF channels will be more difficult than UHF, generally.

2) Duplicate channels can be caused by not erasing your old channel list when you re-scan your set. Re-scan, and make sure you are not in an "add new channels" mode.

In rare cases (like Chicago) some stations had both a UHF and a VHF signal on the air for some time, and that always resulted in duplicates. If that is the current case for anyone, they need to go through the channel list and manually delete the ones they don't want.

Quick thoughts:

1) I forgot if you said before (and you don't say here) if you are using an outdoor antenna. VHF channels will be more difficult than UHF, generally.

2) Duplicate channels can be caused by not erasing your old channel list when you re-scan your set. Re-scan, and make sure you are not in an "add new channels" mode.

In rare cases (like Chicago) some stations had both a UHF and a VHF signal on the air for some time, and that always resulted in duplicates. If that is the current case for anyone, they need to go through the channel list and manually delete the ones they don't want.

I only have one indoor antenna (my ClearTV digital one) on my set. I don't want to go to the trouble of putting up an outdoor antenna.

I've tried to erase the channel list, but it doesn't work. The usual method of unplugging the set for a period of time, then pressing the power on/off button for 30 seconds to one minute, does not work either. The instruction manual (on a DVD, not a printed manual) does not say anything regarding the channel list, except how to add or delete certain channels from it (I cannot physically add or delete individual channels; I must check or uncheck a small circle on the channel list near every station the TV receives, depending, respectively, upon whether I want to include or exclude that channel from the scan list).

I always thought it was the other way around (UHF would be more difficult to receive than VHF), due to UHF's much shorter wavelengths. The only thing I can come up with is that VHF DTV signals are transmitted at lower power than are UHF ones, resulting, of course, in weaker signals that travel shorter distances.

It's at times like this I wish the government hadn't fooled around with the country's television broadcast standards and done away with the old system that had served us well for over fifty years. NTSC was doing just fine, and resulted in at least some reception even if the signals were weak. DTV is all or nothing, meaning if the signal is too weak (below a certain threshold level), there either will be no picture at all, or else the picture will break up into squares and be unwatchable. I like the idea of being able to watch other programs (Antenna TV, MeTV, RTV, et al.) on DTV subchannels, and the much clearer, interference-free picture afforded by DTV, but the reception problems, which no one much had before DTV...well, I don't want to say it's too much, but I don't like those problems any more than asnyone else.

I looked on eBay this afternoon and found many indoor and outdoor DTV antennas, but I'm hesitant to get an all-channel indoor one because it may not work in this area. I don't know, as I said in my post, why channels eight and 19 are so difficult to receive (other than the fact that they are transmitted over VHF DTV channels).

I live within one mile of Lake Erie and get excellent reception from Detroit stations (including their CBS channel 62) using the indoor antenna in the summer. If I could get channel 62 all year long, I wouldn't be concerned as to the loss of channel 19 in Cleveland, which is the CBS station for northern Ohio; however, 62, as well as all other Detroit TV stations, only comes in during the summer. :no:

I bought one of these off ebay for about half the price. Mounted in my basement on the ceiling. I can get all the channels in my area. They come in clear and being in the basement, never a worry about it being damaged in a storm.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-2V-UHF-VHF-Long-Range-Indoor-Outdoor-DTV-Antenna.html

:sigh:I bought one of these off ebay for about half the price. Mounted in my basement on the ceiling. I can get all the channels in my area. They come in clear and being in the basement, never a worry about it being damaged in a storm.

http://www.antennasdirect.com/store/ClearStream-2V-UHF-VHF-Long-Range-Indoor-Outdoor-DTV-Antenna.html

Those use concentric rings to optimize wavelengths over the "new" UHF band channels 14-51, similar in principle to the vintage JFD unit pictured by Walterbeers
I have seen a few of those showing up around here (SE of Lancaster) where all the transmitters are to the west and northwest.

I have not tried one myself but for Hi-band VHF, it would work on WGAL-8 @ 20 miles which has about double the power of WHTM* on 10 @ 40 miles away on which it would definitely NOT work.

*The ABC channel on 10 is considered "local" but is a major headache for most locations around here, while the other channels are pretty easy.
Unfortunately, only Blonder Tongue or Wade antennas still make a 10-element, single-channel Yagi for VHF and its not cheap.

I don't know about that. I live in an area that does not get the CBS or FOX television stations from Cleveland with an OTA antenna. These just happen to be the stations the subchannels of which I watch the most, and it bothers me that I must have cable to see them.

I'm not even sure connecting a standard TV antenna (I guess that's what is meant by a "stick") would bring in the two channels I do not get in digital. I don't know why I don't get those two channels without cable, when every other Cleveland TV station comes in here very well on an antenna. I am guessing it is because channels 8 and nineteen transmit their DTV signals on VHF channels, with the rest transmitting on UHF stations. Another thing that bothers me: My DTV antenna brings in the stations it does get, and well, but the channel list is repeated, in effect showing the same channel twice on one list. Why is this, and what (if anything) can I do to eliminate the duplication of the channel list? It is frustrating and annoying, to say the least, to see my TV bringing in 20+ digital channels (as shown on the scan list), only to find out half those channels are duplicates.

Hmmm. I wonder. If I could get hold of an all-channel indoor TV antenna like a Rembrandt (the kind with the 102" dipoles, the crossed UHF loops, and the 12-position tuning switch), would I finally be able to get channels eight and 19 in digital? Are those antennas even available anywhere anymore? :scratch2: I'll look on eBay; there might be at least one such antenna there. I see on that site just about everything else pertaining to television (including outdoor antennas and even antique rabbit ears), so someone might very well have one up for auction, even as I write this.

I use a Rembrandt rabbit ears on a Zenith DTV-900 box hooked up to a 19 inch Zenith TV. They were a wedding present to my parents back in 1959.

I use a Rembrandt rabbit ears on a Zenith DTV-900 box hooked up to a 19 inch Zenith TV. They were a wedding present to my parents back in 1959.

Those are honestly the most interesting and cool indoor antennas ever made.
I had a set years ago that came with a 1956 Magnavox console, both the VHF and UHF lead-ins were a single quad-lead.:thmbsp:

I got a hold of an antique UHF antenna, strange looking device that I found at the Early Television Convention last summer. Hooked it up to my 50" plasma in my basement level family room, and guess what I got 3 more PBS channels that I could barely pick up before with my regular rabbit ear antenna, and picture doesn't even pixelize unless we have really crappy weather.
That's the old Radion Bullseye from the mid-50's. There was 1000's of them in Milwaukee.

Those are honestly the most interesting and cool indoor antennas ever made.
I had a set years ago that came with a 1956 Magnavox console, both the VHF and UHF lead-ins were a single quad-lead.:thmbsp:
That was the later model. The earlier ones looked similar but were only for VHF. They also made Silvertone branded set-top antennas for Sears. :yes: