View Full Version : 1961 hand held color tv?


oldtvman
04-09-2012, 05:42 PM
Here is a photo on Ebay supposedly of a hand held battery operated color set from 1961? I knew they were working on such a unit in the mid to late sixties but I don't know about anything that early. Can anyone verify this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Press-Photo-RCA-Future-Portable-Color-Television-/230773378168?pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item35bb2a4c78

Phil Nelson
04-09-2012, 06:17 PM
Non-working mockup? Can't read all of the text on the back, but it tells people not to rush to their RCA dealers, since this is an "advanced idea, possibly for the decade of the 1970s."

Phil Nelson

Sandy G
04-09-2012, 06:26 PM
Love how its in B/W...

Theremin
04-09-2012, 06:51 PM
That is likely one of several mock-ups of an idea (among others) being worked on by RCA engineers at the time and made to be presented by David Sarnoff to the stock holders at the annual shindig. There is mention of this practice in the Sarnoff biography (if I recall correctly; haven't read that book in over 20 years).

Sandy G
04-09-2012, 07:07 PM
Too bad RCA DIDN'T follow thru on this & bring out a hand-held color TV C. 1966...Take THAT, Sony, Panasonic, et al...

old_tv_nut
04-09-2012, 09:53 PM
I think I can read the following:

Just another transistor radio? Please! This is a COLOR
television [?], [personalized?] and battery operated, which
[can?] also [offer?] [stereo?] radio programming for [outdoor?] use.
But don't rush to your favorite RCA dealer for [one?]. It's [an?]
"advanced idea" possibly for the decade of the 1970s, to
be shown by RCA at the summer home furnishings market
at the Merchandise Mart next week. Admiring the set is
Chicagoan Frances [?]

etype2
04-09-2012, 10:02 PM
Made the cover of May, 1963 Mechanic Illustrated.

See photo: http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Mech-Illus-mag-wordpress-525.jpg

reeferman
04-09-2012, 10:31 PM
I have a bridge for sale...:D
Phil

Jeffhs
04-10-2012, 12:08 AM
Made the cover of May, 1963 Mechanic Illustrated.

See photo: http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Mech-Illus-mag-wordpress-525.jpg

Look closely at the AM radio dial. "XM" AM radio? I didn't know XM radio technology was that old.

AUdubon5425
04-10-2012, 12:15 AM
Just another transistor radio? Please! This is a COLOR television receiver, pocket sized and battery operated, which will also offer stereo radio programming for outdoor use. But don't rush to your favorite RCA dealer for one. It's an "advanced idea" possibly for the decade of the 1970's....

leadlike
04-10-2012, 12:51 AM
I believe RCA had a marketing campaign during this time featuring several items the public could expect for sale in the next decade. I recall a portable color set was included in the list of items under development, but can't remember if it was like the one in the ebay ad or not.

etype2
04-10-2012, 11:19 AM
Look closely at the AM radio dial. "XM" AM radio? I didn't know XM radio technology was that old.


LOL! :music:

stromberg6
04-10-2012, 04:34 PM
Say what you will about Sarnoff, he did pour millions into R&D at RCA. I agree that he probably needed things to "dazzle" the stockholders at the meetings, and this little TV was as good a prop as any, I guess. :scratch2:

Sandy G
04-10-2012, 07:12 PM
Yep, NO CEO could have gotten away w/such a trick today as Sarnoff did w/color TV back in the Fifties...He woulda been PROMPTLY been handed his walkin' papers...Nowadays they want their money back ASAP, & color TV took til what, 1970 or so B4 it really became profitable...15 years...NO board would stand for that today...

oldtvman
04-11-2012, 11:45 AM
here is advertisement I remember back in the day: http://www.popularmechanics.com/home/improvement/4260191?click=main_sr

julianburke
04-11-2012, 12:21 PM
No doubt a prop as if this was a working unit, RCA would have marketed it if it looked that good as seen in the picture. As stated earlier, I'm sure it was some form of propaganda for the stock holders. "Look what we're doing now!!!" If that was a "REAL" working unit which I doubt and no one else knows about either, we would have already known about it through RCA's history of color television.

Wait a moment here--how did they get all of those tubes in that unit??

Julian KJ4NCW

andy
04-11-2012, 12:38 PM
No doubt a prop as if this was a working unit, RCA would have marketed it if it looked that good as seen in the picture. As stated earlier, I'm sure it was some form of propaganda for the stock holders. "Look what we're doing!!!"

Wait a moment here--how did they get all of those tubes in that unit??

I'm sure the one posted was a prop, but I don't doubt that they had working prototypes that were never sold due to cost, or production reasons.

It would be interesting to have seen what this was used for:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_flat_crt.html

julianburke
04-11-2012, 11:11 PM
Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early. Remember SONY had that flat CRT in their "Watchmans" only in B&W in the '80's some 25 years later. COLOR flat tubes in 1961?? I don't think so as they were not that advanced. B&W I may hardly believe that, but not color. There was too much geometry in that tube to understand in 1961.

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

BTW, just where would the shadow mask have been???

Julian KJ4NCW

andy
04-12-2012, 12:34 AM
I didn't mean to imply that the ETF CRT was from 1961, just that they surely had some interesting prototypes which never saw the light of day.

jr_tech
04-12-2012, 12:49 AM
Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early.

I agree, The "TV set" shown in 1961 was likely pretty much an empty box mock-up to demonstrate a concept. The lollipop CRT at ETF looks like a later (late 70s I think is a good guess) engineering special that likely could produce an image. Careful examination of the CRT at ETF should reveal if it was Monochrome or color. I would guess monochrome.

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

Agree... If the ETF prototype CRT was color (doubtful IMHO), It would have taken a ton of electronics to produce proper geometry and convergence, but for engineering work, a rack full of special driver circuits could have been used.

BTW, where would the shadow mask have been???
Good question... and how would convergence of the three beams been obtained?... an almost impossible task, IMHO. Beam index technology would seem to be more practical.
By the mid 80s, A lollipop style color CRT using beam index design may perhaps have made into an actual product... some discussion of the Sanyo Prototype/Product about halfway through this thread:

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=248210

jr

etype2
04-12-2012, 03:17 PM
Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early. Remember SONY had that flat CRT in their "Watchmans" only in B&W in the '80's some 25 years later. COLOR flat tubes in 1961?? I don't think so as they were not that advanced. B&W I may hardly believe that, but not color. There was too much geometry in that tube to understand in 1961.

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

BTW, where would the shadow mask have been???

I have a 1966 Motorola annual report. Motorola developed a flat screen CRT for hospital use in 1966. Interestingly, some 16 years before the famous Sony FD 210 Watchman flat CRT.

See photo and text from report: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/motorola-flat-screen-tv-1966/

oldtvman
04-12-2012, 04:00 PM
Remember that in 1961 they were still into 21" round tubes with no rectangulars in sight. I doubt seriously their technology at that time could have produced the tube that ETF has at that time. It looks like something from the later '70's to me if that early. Remember SONY had that flat CRT in their "Watchmans" only in B&W in the '80's some 25 years later. COLOR flat tubes in 1961?? I don't think so as they were not that advanced. B&W I may hardly believe that, but not color. There was too much geometry in that tube to understand in 1961.

I would like to know what they were doing then if I am wrong here. There were no IC's back then and only IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!! Perhaps there was a huge backpack to go along with it! Even so, CRT design was not that advanced for color back then. OK guys, prove me wrong here!!

BTW, where would the shadow mask have been???

All I can say is we didn't know about the SR71 blackbird for a long time and companies back then tended to keep new stuff on the back burner and release it slowly. Maybe someone who worked at Rca during that time would be able to shed some light on this.

Sandy G
04-12-2012, 04:05 PM
I don't think ANYBODY ever developed a flat COLOR CRT.Time ran out on 'em. And I doubt now one will ever be developed. I REALLY do wish those dreadful flat-screen thingies had NEVER been developed...CRTs 4Evah...(grin)

jr_tech
04-12-2012, 05:17 PM
I have a 1966 Motorola annual report. Motorola developed a flat screen CRT for hospital use in 1966. Interestingly, some 16 years before the famous Sony FD 210 Watchman flat CRT.

See photo and text from report: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/motorola-flat-screen-tv-1966/

Very interesting... Did Motorola actually claim to have developed a flat CRT for the unit? Do you have any details?

A few things come to mind:
!. Since the unit is on a long cable, the complex driving circuitry could have been located apart from the display, making for a compact unit, even in the era before complicated ICs, so perhaps it would have been possible. :scratch2:

2. Perhaps the body of the unit could have contained a small monochrome CRT and a mirror/lens system similar to the Philco Safari. Again could have been possible with remote electronics.

3. The caption says "talk to a nurse and operate a combination radio-television set"...Which may be an indication that this was just a "nurse call button" combined with a fancy radio/tv remote control... but it sure looks like a display screen.

Scratching my head over this one, thanks for posting it!
jr

Phil Nelson
04-12-2012, 05:56 PM
IF they used discreet SS parts available then, there is no way in heck they could put them all in that hand held TV!!Yes, it's interesting to compare a Sony 8-301W, a B/W transistor TV that actually shipped in 1961. I suppose it's about as small as you could make a practical TV from available components at the time -- quite a bit bigger and heavier than the "palm sized" mockup in the RCA photo!

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Sony8-301WBoardsArranged.jpg

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Sony8-301WBoardsInstalled.jpg

http://antiqueradio.org/art/Sony8-301WFront.jpg

Philco's Safari had a different form factor and used a much smaller CRT, but it was a real brick, as well.

Phil Nelson

Sandy G
04-12-2012, 06:40 PM
The FIRST really, REALLY small color set was the Sony KV-4000/4001 from 1980....And then the 1.5 Panasonic CT-101, from '84. Now, Panasonic DID have the Mica 1 in 1969, that l'il 1.5" set...But that was a LONG way from '61...They could have benefitted from the space race & all the miniaturisation of components by then.

julianburke
04-12-2012, 07:55 PM
Alright guys, hold it a moment here, you have been fooled or didn't look at the picture well enough for that 1966 Motorola hospital flat screen. Also the title may be bogus as well. Look at that picture of the person in the hospital bed, that is a speaker unit only--NO TV!! Look at the unit behind the bed which shows that. Flat screen TV?? Where?? It isn't shown funny thing so the title could have been typed by anyone unknowingly. Looks like a plain ordinary article touting the hand held nurse call with TV controls in it that have been used for decades and is still in use today.

Assuming it "was" a TV in itself, it would not be appropriate for many hospital patients and would have been cost prohibitive.

etype2
04-12-2012, 11:12 PM
Very interesting... Did Motorola actually claim to have developed a flat CRT for the unit? Do you have any details?

A few things come to mind:
!. Since the unit is on a long cable, the complex driving circuitry could have been located apart from the display, making for a compact unit, even in the era before complicated ICs, so perhaps it would have been possible. :scratch2:

2. Perhaps the body of the unit could have contained a small monochrome CRT and a mirror/lens system similar to the Philco Safari. Again could have been possible with remote electronics.

3. The caption says "talk to a nurse and operate a combination radio-television set"...Which may be an indication that this was just a "nurse call button" combined with a fancy radio/tv remote control... but it sure looks like a display screen.

Scratching my head over this one, thanks for posting it!
jr

That's what I thought as well, just a control unit, but that sure looks like a display screen about 3.5 inches. In 1966 the Intertel Corporation in Los Angles demonstrated a working two sided flat 6 inch color TV. You could actually view it on both sides. So the advanced circuitry was available in 1966 to create the prototype flat color CRT. This makes me believe the hospital TV is real.

See photo of working 6 inch flat color CRT. http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/pop-mechs-2-wordpress-525/

etype2
04-12-2012, 11:20 PM
Alright guys, you have been fooled here or didn't look at the picture well enough for that 1966 Motorola hospital flat screen. Also the title may be bogus as well. Look at that picture of the person in the hospital bed, that is a speaker unit only--NO TV!! Look at the unit behind the bed which shows that. Flat screen TV?? Where?? Not shown funny thing so the title could have been typed by anyone unknowingly. Looks like a plain ordinary article touting the hand held nurse call with TV controls in it.

The key words in the Motorola description: "all in one unit" and "patients ... can operate a combination radio-TV ... "

One more photo of the working 6 inch two sided flat color CRT prototype in 1966: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/pop-mechs-1-wordpress-525/

jr_tech
04-12-2012, 11:56 PM
That's what I thought as well, just a control unit, but that sure looks like a display screen about 3.5 inches.

That's what I thought at first, but I remember seeing formed metal speaker grills (with very tiny punched holes) on vintage Motorola 2-way radios that had a similar appearance. Notice the odd contour and shape of the "screen"... I now think I am seeing a speaker/microphone, not a CRT face.

jr

ChrisW6ATV
04-12-2012, 11:59 PM
Look at that picture of the person in the hospital bed, that is a speaker unit only--NO TV!!
I had not looked at the Motorola link until I saw your comments. Indeed, why did anyone think that was a TV screen on the device in the picture? It is an all-in-one "control plus nurse-call device", exactly as hospitals have since used for decades, if I remember from the last time I was in a hospital room (visiting or staying, quite a while ago in either case). Such a device (without a TV screen) was newsworthy in 1966 in any case; the first time I stayed in a hospital after birth was for pneumonia in 1968. My mother rented a TV for me from the in-house company, that was wheeled into the room.

etype2
04-13-2012, 12:41 AM
That's what I thought at first, but I remember seeing formed metal speaker grills (with very tiny punched holes) on vintage Motorola 2-way radios that had a similar appearance. Notice the odd contour and shape of the "screen"... I now think I am seeing a speaker/microphone, not a CRT face.

jr

Point well taken. Probably not a TV. That pointed screen threw me also. Why have that shape if a viewing screen.

etype2
04-13-2012, 12:52 AM
I had not looked at the Motorola link until I saw your comments. Indeed, why did anyone think that was a TV screen on the device in the picture? It is an all-in-one "control plus nurse-call device", exactly as hospitals have since used for decades, if I remember from the last time I was in a hospital room (visiting or staying, quite a while ago in either case). Such a device (without a TV screen) was newsworthy in 1966 in any case; the first time I stayed in a hospital after birth was for pneumonia in 1968. My mother rented a TV for me from the in-house company, that was wheeled into the room.

My explaniation, I'm 66, been lucky only in a hospital once and that was in 1957. I remember a control unit to call nurses with a built in radio in that hospital. When I saw this photo and description, for 1966, what's so special unless it had a TV. That would make it news worthy.

julianburke
04-13-2012, 07:03 AM
In 1966 Motorola was trying to develop a rectangular screen which they did--a 23EGP22 by the National Video Corporation which we all know what it turned out to be. Their resources were focused there and certainly not on a flat screen. The guy I worked with was a Motorola field rep then and flat panels/screens were never discussed or even heard of except as a small blurb in Popular Electronics but only as an artists' concept.

My mistake here, Motorola began the rectangular tube movement in around 1963-4 through the National Video Corporation who was about bankrupt and took on the task of developing a rectangular CRT. They were plagued with cheap labor and some labor issues and their cleanliness was below par and their best 23EGP22 was "soft" and not very crisp. A "flat" panel was not even in their picture in this time frame nor did their finances allow engineering such an item for what their goal was.

David Roper
04-13-2012, 08:23 AM
Weren't rectangular sets with 23E[ww]GP22s being sold by Motorola in 1964? The only rectangular color innovation (if you can call it that) of 1966 that I can think of is the Portacolor.

old_tv_nut
04-13-2012, 11:39 AM
The hospital thing is an integrated nurse call, TV remote control and remote TV speaker (to reduce disturbance to one's roommate) - absolutely NOT a TV display. Whoever wrote the headline very mistakenly based it on a glance at appearance without close inspection or reading the PR text that would have accompanied this photo.

etype2
04-13-2012, 12:52 PM
The hospital thing is an integrated nurse call, TV remote control and remote TV speaker (to reduce disturbance to one's roommate) - absolutely NOT a TV display. Whoever wrote the headline very mistakenly based it on a glance at appearance without close inspection or reading the PR text that would have accompanied this photo.

I wrote the comment for my website. The photo and text were copied as found from Motorola's 1966 annual report. The top portion very much looks like a display screen in that photo. When JR Tech mentioned it was probably a perforated speaker grille, the light bulb went off and I agree, it probably is not a TV because of the pointed shape of that grille. If you re-read the text, it says "all in one unit" and "patients can operate a combination radio-TV". Since a nurse call device with radio have been around for decades, even back to 1957 when I was last in a hospital, I thought Motorola had come up with a new innovation. Also, Motorola did develop a tiny 1 inch working prototype TV in the same year, 1966. This and the fact that in 1966 the Intertel Corporation developed a working two sided flat 6 inch color CRT supported my belief. See the previous page for two photos of that working prototype. Also in 1966, Sir Ian Sinclair demonstrated their 1 1/2 inch Micro TV. It seems 1966 was a banner year for tiny televisions. So yes, very possibly in 1961 a working miniature TV could have been possible behind the scene because 5 years later we have at least three working prototypes and in 1970 the Panasonic TR-001 1 1/2 inch TV was introduced.

See photo of Motorola 1966 working prototype 1 inch TV: http://www.taschenfernseher.de/doku/motorola1966.jpg

crtfool
04-13-2012, 02:13 PM
The FIRST really, REALLY small color set was the Sony KV-4000/4001 from 1980....And then the 1.5 Panasonic CT-101, from '84. Now, Panasonic DID have the Mica 1 in 1969, that l'il 1.5" set...But that was a LONG way from '61...They could have benefitted from the space race & all the miniaturisation of components by then.

All the sets that Sandy references are color, so what is the Mica 1? Is it a color set - I never heard of it - or is he referring to the TR-001 B&W set?

jr_tech
04-13-2012, 02:39 PM
Motorola did develop a tiny 1 inch working prototype TV in the same year, 1966. This and the fact that in 1966 the Intertel Corporation developed a working two sided flat 6 inch color CRT supported my belief. See the previous page for two photos of that working prototype. Also in 1966, Sir Ian Sinclair demonstrated their 1 1/2 inch Micro TV. It seems 1966 was a banner year for tiny televisions. So yes, very possibly in 1961 a working miniature TV could have been possible behind the scene because 5 years later we have at least three working prototypes and in 1970 the Panasonic TR-001 1 1/2 inch TV was introduced.

See photo of Motorola 1966 working prototype 1 inch TV: http://www.taschenfernseher.de/doku/motorola1966.jpg

FWIW, my take on these demonstrations...

1. I believe the 1966 Motorola prototype existed...a talented Engineer with the skill of a watchmaker could have built something like that. About the same time frame, an engineer that I knew built a tiny battery powered oscilloscope that worked, using a 3/4 inch diameter electrostatic CRT.

2. I believe the 1966 Sinclair demo, again a conventional electrostatic deflection monochrome crt and fairly conventional circuitry. A real product followed shortly.

3. Of course the 1970 monochrome Panasonic was a real product and even contained an IC to reduce the amount of discrete circuitry, as well as a conventional design magnetic deflection CRT.

4. At that time, all of the above would have been fairly simple exercises compared to making a flat CRT for a tiny TV set, and color would add extreme complexity to the design. I believe the 1966 Intertel set "pictured" on magazine covers was nothing more than a mock-up.

5. Perhaps in the mid 80s, Sanyo came close to introducing a beam index "lollipop" CRT color set, but I think by that time sets with color LCDs close to becoming a reality...it was simply too little / too late for that product.

Just my 2 cents,
jr

Jeffhs
04-13-2012, 03:10 PM
RCA had what it referred to as "TruFlat" color TVs in the late 1980s or early nineties. The screens of these sets may have been flat, but the sets were still NTSC analog. I wonder whether these TruFlat sets had special or custom-made CRTs (which I seriously doubt), or if the flat screen was part of a projection system in which the image from a small color tube was projected onto the screen to create the illusion of a flat picture.

Sandy G
04-13-2012, 03:39 PM
Yeah, the 1969-70 Panasonic Mica-1 set was B/W. Sorry about that, Chief...

etype2
04-13-2012, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE I believe the 1966 Intertel set "pictured" on magazine covers was nothing more than a mock-up.

The 1966 Intertel set was indeed a working prototype. In the Feb. 1966 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine there was a 5 page write up about it. The opening paragraph by the reporter: "FLAT TV PICTURE TUBES ARE REALLY HERE. There are both color and black-and-white versions. I know, I've seen them in action. I've held them in my hands."

This photo is of an actual image on the screen: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/pop-mechs-2-wordpress-525/

The tube is a flat tube very similar in looks to the Sanyo "lollypop" CRT. In the article you can see design sketches and working images on the tube.

To further the information, the 1961 RCA flat screen shown in the EBAY press photo auction was shown on the cover of the May, 1963 Mechanix Illustrated magazine. Possibly RCA was still tinkering with the design behind the scenes.

To further fuel the thought, an RCA engineer, George Hilmeir and his team invented and patented the first working LCD displays. They started work in secret from 1962 and announced to the world in a press conference in 1968, the development of the first LCD panels. Unfortunately, RCA never capitalized on their LCD patents, perhaps not to compete with their successful Color CRT division. Possibly RCA could have been thinking with this 1961-1963 mock up to use the new LCD panels they invented.

Here is a Photo of George Hilmeir standing outside of the Princeton RCA laboratories displaying an LCD imaging device. This photo was taken ironically, 1966 according to the David Sarnoff library: http://www.visions4.net/journal/new/new/first-lcd-display-1966-525-wordpress/

David Roper
04-13-2012, 06:57 PM
This photo is of an actual image on the screen: http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/pop-mechs-2-wordpress-525.jpg


Huh? You can't be serious.

etype2
04-13-2012, 07:29 PM
Huh? You can't be serious.

The full article: http://www.taschenfernseher.de/doku/pm-0266.pdf

jr_tech
04-13-2012, 07:35 PM
The 1966 Intertel set was indeed a working prototype. In the Feb. 1966 issue of Popular Mechanics magazine there was a 5 page write up about it. The opening paragraph by the reporter: "FLAT TV PICTURE TUBES ARE REALLY HERE. There are both color and black-and-white versions. I know, I've seen them in action. I've held them in my hands."

This photo is of an actual image on the screen: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/pop-mechs-2-wordpress-525/


I am very skeptical ... Popular magazines such as PM and MI were saying that flat screen "hang on the wall" TVs are "coming soon" & "just around the corner" since the Aiken and Gabor patents were filed in the 50s. Work did continue on both designs until about 1970, but no practical production devices resulted. No doubt, designers could have been working with such devices and speculating about and showing mock-ups of potential applications, but I think that the cover picture from PM was a total "hoax", for several reasons:

1. The circuitry required to operate a color flat tube in 1966 IMHO, could not possibly fit inside that box.

2. The "beach scene" lighting likely would have washed out any CRT display.

3. If the display was transparent and viewable from both sides, as indicated, wouldn't the viewers arm be viewable in the background of the image.

4. The display picture simply looks "too good" ... if Intertel had something that good in 1966, what happened to them?

again, just my 2 cents worth,
jr

etype2
04-13-2012, 07:55 PM
I am very skeptical ... Popular magazines such as PM and MI were saying that flat screen "hang on the wall" TVs are "coming soon" & "just around the corner" since the Aiken and Gabor patents were filed in the 50s. Work did continue on both designs until about 1970, but no practical production devices resulted. No doubt, designers could have been working with such devices and speculating about and showing mock-ups of potential applications, but I think that the cover picture from PM was a total "hoax", for several reasons:

1. The circuitry required to operate a color flat tube in 1966 IMHO, could not possibly fit inside that box.

2. The "beach scene" lighting likely would have washed out any CRT display.

3. If the display was transparent and viewable from both sides, as indicated, wouldn't the viewers arm be viewable in the background of the image.

4. The display picture simply looks "too good" ... if Intertel had something that good in 1966, what happened to them?

again, just my 2 cents worth,
jr

I agree, the cover photo not real, just to show the potential. Did you read the full article in my last post?

Phil Nelson
04-13-2012, 08:03 PM
See photo of Motorola 1966 working prototype 1 inch TV: http://www.taschenfernseher.de/doku/motorola1966.jpgInteresting. Do you know the magazine (title, date) where that article was published?

The article mentions a paper by Mr. Tanner that was read at a 1966 IEEE convention. The IEEE website (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/guesthome.jsp) has many old archived documents. It would be fun to read that guy's paper, if available.

Phil Nelson

etype2
04-13-2012, 08:17 PM
Interesting. Do you know the magazine (title, date) where that article was published?

The article mentions a paper by Mr. Tanner that was read at a 1966 IEEE convention. The IEEE website (http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/guesthome.jsp) has many old archived documents. It would be fun to read that guy's paper, if available.

Phil Nelson

The article about the 1 1/8 inch Motorola TV was from the Columbus Dispatch in 1966. I don't know the day or month. I saw this on the history of television website. If your a subscriber to IEEE, would be interested to read his paper.

old_tv_nut
04-13-2012, 08:20 PM
RCA had what it referred to as "TruFlat" color TVs in the late 1980s or early nineties. The screens of these sets may have been flat, but the sets were still NTSC analog. I wonder whether these TruFlat sets had special or custom-made CRTs (which I seriously doubt), or if the flat screen was part of a projection system in which the image from a small color tube was projected onto the screen to create the illusion of a flat picture.

"Truflat" was normal CRT construction, except that the screen was very close to flat (though not perfectly flat like the Zenith FTM monitor tubes).

old_tv_nut
04-13-2012, 08:30 PM
See photo of working 6 inch flat color CRT. http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/pop-mechs-2-wordpress-525/

Nope, not a picture of a WORKING flat screen set. May be a photo of a flat screen set that worked, but the picture is definitely a paste-up, unless someone can tell me that they had a CRT that could make black areas despite the light coming in. Or was that "view from either side" article a note on a two sided CRT that would need to have the back covered by a black shield to actually use it anywhere but a darkroom?

jr_tech
04-13-2012, 08:33 PM
I agree, the cover photo not real, just to show the potential. Did you read the full article in my last post?

Just did... looks as if they had some working but crude lab prototypes of a design similar to the Sony "lollipop" CRTs as well as a very cute mock-up of a portable set.
The limited color (2 color) tube might have been workable, but might not have been good enough to generate much interest and investment capitol for production start up costs.

interesting,
jr

old_tv_nut
04-13-2012, 08:47 PM
The article about the 1 1/8 inch Motorola TV was from the Columbus Dispatch in 1966. I don't know the day or month. I saw this on the history of television website. If your a subscriber to IEEE, would be interested to read his paper.

DeLoss Tanner died (cerebral hemhorrage, IIRC) just before I got out of school and joined Motorola. I inherited a different project of his, a transistorized black and white TV that was an experiment in cost reducing any way conceivable. The set was breadboarded on a tinplated steel sheet. My first job was to buy a car battery and charger to run it. The IF transistors had no emitter degeneration and were current-biased by the AGC circuit. The CRT had been built from a cut-down glass milk bottle, with the bottom of the bottle as the screen. You could read the dairy's logo, stamped in the bottle bottom, in the picture; and it was, well, "milky" looking (no aluminization). The set basically worked, but there was no hope of holding tolerances for production. I got it running, and it went into storage or maybe got trashed, I don't recall; but at least it then was a documented experiment.

old_tv_nut
04-13-2012, 08:51 PM
Just did... looks as if they had some working but crude lab prototypes of a design similar to the Sony "lollipop" CRTs as well as a very cute mock-up of a portable set.
The limited color (2 color) tube might have been workable, but might not have been good enough to generate much interest and investment capitol for production start up costs.

interesting,
jr

Viewable from both sides makes sense for a 2-color CRT with two phosphors on opposite sides of a glass plate - but the picture would be awfully washed out if you actually left both sides open.

etype2
04-13-2012, 09:01 PM
Nope, not a picture of a WORKING flat screen set. May be a photo of a flat screen set that worked, but the picture is definitely a paste-up, unless someone can tell me that they had a CRT that could make black areas despite the light coming in. Or was that "view from either side" article a note on a two sided CRT that would need to have the back covered by a black shield to actually use it anywhere but a darkroom?

The full article which can be read at post #44 states that the reporter saw working prototypes in action, both color and black & white. The reporter commented that the flesh tones were the best he had seen.

old_tv_nut
04-13-2012, 10:43 PM
The full article which can be read at post #44 states that the reporter saw working prototypes in action, both color and black & white. The reporter commented that the flesh tones were the best he had seen.

These statements I can believe. The flesh hue is determined by the color of the red/orange phosphor. It is desaturated by some amount of complementary cyan, but its hue cannot change.

As the author states, purple is not possible - but I have no idea what he means by "reddish blue" if it's not purple (which it couldn't be) - maybe he means it was slightly variable from slightly blue to slightly red.

Here are some shots of Cliff Benham's 2-color field sequential set (left smaller screen) vs. ordinary 3-color (right screen), from the 2009 Early Television convention.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7254/6929304912_f397e9ee89_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929304912/)
P5010070 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929304912/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5115/7075380101_74f343e69b_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380101/)
P5010072 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380101/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7104/6929305204_2f3bcbe365_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305204/)
P5010114 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305204/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7271/7075380409_a3685bb483_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380409/)
P5010115 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380409/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr

Finally, 3-color bars on left, 2-color on right:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5330/6929305092_91911d7b8c_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305092/)
P5010099 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305092/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr

etype2
04-14-2012, 12:22 AM
These statements I can believe. The flesh hue is determined by the color of the red/orange phosphor. It is desaturated by some amount of complementary cyan, but its hue cannot change.

As the author states, purple is not possible - but I have no idea what he means by "reddish blue" if it's not purple (which it couldn't be) - maybe he means it was slightly variable from slightly blue to slightly red.

Here are some shots of Cliff Benham's 2-color field sequential set (left smaller screen) vs. ordinary 3-color (right screen), from the 2009 Early Television convention.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7254/6929304912_f397e9ee89_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929304912/)
P5010070 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929304912/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5115/7075380101_74f343e69b_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380101/)
P5010072 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380101/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7104/6929305204_2f3bcbe365_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305204/)
P5010114 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305204/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7271/7075380409_a3685bb483_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380409/)
P5010115 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/7075380409/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr

Finally, 3-color bars on left, 2-color on right:
http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5330/6929305092_91911d7b8c_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305092/)
P5010099 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/42002845@N02/6929305092/) by old_tv_nut (http://www.flickr.com/people/42002845@N02/), on Flickr

Wow! Thank you for posting these photos.

jr_tech
04-14-2012, 02:13 PM
These statements I can believe. The flesh hue is determined by the color of the red/orange phosphor. It is desaturated by some amount of complementary cyan, but its hue cannot change.

As the author states, purple is not possible - but I have no idea what he means by "reddish blue" if it's not purple (which it couldn't be) - maybe he means it was slightly variable from slightly blue to slightly red.

Here are some shots of Cliff Benham's 2-color field sequential set (left smaller screen) vs. ordinary 3-color (right screen), from the 2009 Early Television convention.


Very cool! thanks for posting. Two color looks better than I expected, but still might have been pretty hard to sell, even in the mid 60s. I looks as if the colors shown are basically "I axis" only, which could have simplified the circuitry somewhat. Was a 2 color system used in some countries, in the "early days" ?

jr

reeferman
04-14-2012, 07:46 PM
I've now sold the bridge a total of nine times. Wanna buy it?:D
Phil

Electronic M
04-14-2012, 09:29 PM
If that flat screen two color CRT actually worked then it mat have been possible to make a three color tube by adding another layer to it.

old_tv_nut
04-15-2012, 11:50 PM
If that flat screen two color CRT actually worked then it mat have been possible to make a three color tube by adding another layer to it.

I don't see how. The glass that carries the phosphors has only two sides, and the idea is to have two beams approaching the opposite sides through vacuum.

old_tv_nut
04-15-2012, 11:57 PM
Very cool! thanks for posting. Two color looks better than I expected, but still might have been pretty hard to sell, even in the mid 60s. I looks as if the colors shown are basically "I axis" only, which could have simplified the circuitry somewhat. Was a 2 color system used in some countries, in the "early days" ?

jr

Two-color TV systems never went into use, although they were proposed. A Mexican inventor proposed a two-color system for Mexico:
http://www.earlytelevision.org/mexican_color.html.

Two color film, however, was used for a while - in one early form of Technicolor; also some two-color cartoons by others than Disney (who had three years of exclusive rights for use of three-color Technicolor in cartoons).

rca2000
04-16-2012, 11:30 AM
It seems to have a form of "lollipop tube". PM claimed the set 'was coming soon". But--it took over a DECADE before a B/W lollipop tube was successful even--on the little sony sets!!

Does ANYONE out there know what happened?? did the two-color lollipop tube set prove to be too difficult for "real world" production or use?? Was there some sort of "reliability issue" discovered before production began?? I am SURE that the populace WOULD have embraced a truly portable color set in the late '60's even if the color was not "perfect"--as LONG AS it would "hold up" , not cost too much, be reasonably easy to use, and be "stable". After all--the first and 2nd gen LCD sets--BOTH B/w and color looked like $hit--but still sold somewhat decently in the '80's--enough to keep research to lcd sets today--which look MUCH better--and are MUCH cheaper.

Also--that LCD display that is being held in the RCA pix from 1966--looks to be a B/W display--was that REAL?? The case looked about the size of a SImpson 260 meter, adapted to fit the display. Bu that "test pattern looked--at least from the distance--MUCH better than pix of the B/W LCD sets from the mid 80's!!

Any thoughts??

Electronic M
04-16-2012, 03:33 PM
I don't see how. The glass that carries the phosphors has only two sides, and the idea is to have two beams approaching the opposite sides through vacuum.

Use one more screen with it's own deflection, and make one of the two screens semi-transparent so the two screens can be watched at the same time adding the primaries of each to make a tricolor image.

The two color one already had a semi-transparent screen so one could probably add another tube behind it with a third phosphor color to get full color with out any major modification.

Heck one could probably double up two bi-color tubes one having two primaries and the other having the third primary plus a white monochrome phosphor for improved brightness/simplified circuits.

old_tv_nut
04-16-2012, 04:28 PM
...did the two-color lollipop tube set prove to be too difficult for "real world" production or use?? Was there some sort of "reliability issue" discovered before production began?? Any thoughts??

If introduced by a small company, probably just lack of financial mass to keep the company going until it could become profitable. Development and promotion of new technology is seldom so smooth that it doesn't require at least double the time and money originally estimated (or more). A large company that already has income from existing product can support this kind of delay (although it may not choose to do so), but a startup depends on attracting patient (and maybe repeated) investment.

Sandy G
04-16-2012, 05:22 PM
I remember reading that RCA had a 2-color system that they developed while struggling w/the NTSC system... The story goes that they were gonna demonstrate it in Washington in Sept 1949... There were 2 huge receivers, apparently they were hybrid color wheel/CRT technology. It was DREADFULLY hot, the guy who was in charge was drenched w/sweat, they started the demonstration, & 1st one, then the other receiver failed, w/a large "BANG !" each.

David Roper
04-16-2012, 07:42 PM
Are you sure it was an RCA demonstration? I'm quite sure they didn't do any color wheel development whatsoever, at least in the postwar period, much less attempt to demonstrate such in 1949.

Sandy G
04-16-2012, 09:01 PM
Pretty sure it was-It was in that EXCELLENT book, "Behind the Tube", which gave an insider's look at the early days of TV from someone who was there. Naturally, I've misplaced it-Or I'd go look it up & fill in the blanks

etype2
04-17-2012, 02:22 PM
Also--that LCD display that is being held in the RCA pix from 1966--looks to be a B/W display--was that REAL?? The case looked about the size of a SImpson 260 meter, adapted to fit the display. Bu that "test pattern looked--at least from the distance--MUCH better than pix of the B/W LCD sets from the mid 80's!!

Any thoughts??

I know that the test pattern is real. The photo is part of the Sarnoff library. There is a book out by Costallano, one of the original engineers on Hielmeier's team at RCA. Hielmeier discovered 3 electro-optic effects in liquid crystals in 1962 and he put together a team and they worked in secret. That photo was taken in 1966 outside RCA's Princeton labs. They revealed their secret LCD project in May, 1968 to the world and demoed various LCD panels. I have seen photos of that demo. RCA obtained first patents on LCD and unfortunately did nothing with it. We all know what happened next, the Japanese commercialized LCD. The story goes within RCA circles at the time, that they did not want LCD to compete with their CRT division according to Costellano's book.

The subject of this tread was, could a 1961 hand held TV exist. We now know that RCA was still tinkering with it in 1963 at the time Hielmeirs team was developing LCD displays and we know that others were working on flat TV's like the flat two color CRT in 1966. The Popular Science article mentions the engineers name and I did some research on him. I found that he was awarded several patents for 3 and 4 color flat displays. The answer to what happened to this two color prototype may be available by doing a IEEE technical paper search.

Here is a another RCA mock up from 1965. You get the feeling this was for the LCD displays they were developing behind the scene. http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/rca-mock-up-1965-525/

etype2
09-08-2012, 04:59 PM
One more tiny set:

Because this 29 transistor, 14 diode receiver was designed and built in 1964, it does not use integrated circuits. It weighs only 12 1/2 ounces and the entire unit occupies just 1.2 cubic inches of space. The earphone cord acts as the antenna. This television was featured in the October, 1967 issue of Popular Electronics magazine. See photos below.

I have other photos showing an actual Black and white image on the screen.


http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Motorola-Tiny-Tim-525-WP.jpg

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Motorola-Tiny-Tim-1a-525-WP.jpg

old_tv_nut
09-08-2012, 05:50 PM
One more tiny set:

Because this 29 transistor, 14 diode receiver was designed and built in 1964, it does not use integrated circuits. It weighs only 12 1/2 ounces and the entire unit occupies just 1.2 cubic inches of space. The earphone cord acts as the antenna. This television was featured in the October, 1967 issue of Popular Electronics magazine. See photos below.

I have other photos showing an actual Black and white image on the screen.


http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Motorola-Tiny-Tim-525-WP.jpg

http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Motorola-Tiny-Tim-1a-525-WP.jpg

I think this set has been mentioned here before.
It was a black and white set. It worked, but had some shortcuts, such as, the channel was permanently tuned to one Chicago station and could not be changed from the outside. Still, it made for interesting press copy.

etype2
03-31-2017, 04:04 PM
Reserrecting this old tread. Found this recently, a working two sided flat screen television on display at a Japan expo in 1967, one year after the Popular Science cover photo and discussed in this thread and 15 years prior to the first Sony flat Watchman CRT. The film is in black and white, but the two sided display could have been in color. The ID plate looks like Sony or Sharp. See the video below.

http://media.gettyimages.com/videos/televisions-on-display-at-expo-in-japan-people-milling-about-display-video-id177080116?p=1

old_tv_nut
03-31-2017, 04:39 PM
It could have been color, but very unlikely, as convergence of electron beams while bending them would have been practically impossible - plus, there can't possibly be a shadow mask, or it would prevent the beam from hitting the back side. I wonder if the claim of two screens with the beam bouncing from one to the other is a mistake. Much more likely to be a non-aluminized glass plate. The scene changes just as the camera moves from front to back, so you can't see if the image is reversed. Maybe someone who reads Japanese can tell us if the text is backwards.

Edit - look carefully - the image on the front screen is at the surface, while the image at the back is recessed by the depth of the device. This appears to be a single transparent plate.

Phototone
03-31-2017, 04:51 PM
I don't think ANYBODY ever developed a flat COLOR CRT.Time ran out on 'em. And I doubt now one will ever be developed. I REALLY do wish those dreadful flat-screen thingies had NEVER been developed...CRTs 4Evah...(grin)

Indeed there WERE flat-screen color CRT tubes, used in almost all CRT sets in the last 10 years of CRT televisions, but they were flat-face tubes that still had a neck out back. I have a 36" Sony HD Flat Screen CRT TV set, and a few Flat screen CRT computer monitors. But they still are boxy because of the need for the neck of the tube in back.

jr_tech
03-31-2017, 07:31 PM
Indeed there WERE flat-screen color CRT tubes, used in almost all CRT sets in the last 10 years of CRT televisions, but they were flat-face tubes that still had a neck out back. I have a 36" Sony HD Flat Screen CRT TV set, and a few Flat screen CRT computer monitors. But they still are boxy because of the need for the neck of the tube in back.

We are really talking about "pancake" tubes that do not have the gun in the rear, not tubes that just have a flat faceplate:

http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=246309&highlight=flat

jr

etype2
03-31-2017, 07:49 PM
My guess is the display in the video is designed along the lines of the two color CRT shown in the 1966 magazine shown in this thread.

https://visions4netjournal.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_4552.jpg

Speculation:

Sony was know to be experimenting with Index beam televisions in the 70's. Maybe as early as 1967? I read they made a 30 inch index beam prototype set.

Two Watchman style CRT's could have been placed back to back in that box.

Two Index beam style color CRT's could have been placed back to back in that box in the video.

The last photo is a prototype type 8 inch color CRT from Sony. Infromation was published 1968. The other photos show the Sanyo and Sony index beam configuration.

In the video, you can see a lot of reflections. I think I see two different images displayed at the same time, but it's hard to say for sure.

Edit: To correct. From my research material, "Sony has been involved in the development of beam index CRTs since the Chromatron era and has started serious commercialization since the 1970s”.

Jeffhs
04-02-2017, 01:00 AM
I think this set has been mentioned here before.
It was a black and white set. It worked, but had some shortcuts, such as, the channel was permanently tuned to one Chicago station and could not be changed from the outside. Still, it made for interesting press copy.


I can see why this TV had to be fixed-tuned to one channel. I doubt varactor tuners had been thought of in the 1960s, which rules out pushbutton channel selectors, and the very small size of these sets would have ruled out the use of any kind of mechanical RF tuner as well (I have never seen any turret or switch-type VHF TV tuner that would fit into a television set this small).

The fact that this TV used the earphone cord as the antenna, and does not seem to have any input jacks or terminal strips for external antennas, would mean the set would have to be located in a very strong signal area to operate at all, say within five miles of the transmitter. I cannot see this set working at all in the semi-fringe area in which I live (I am about 35 miles from the Cleveland TV stations) or any other such area; forget about using a set like this in a deep-fringe area--all you would get on the tiny screen would be snow on whatever channel the set had been factory-tuned to. I don't think this TV would work on cable or with a DTV converter box, either. :no: But then again, who would want to tether a small TV like this to cable or to a DTV/cable box? :scratch2:

BTW, I remember the Popular Science article in which this tiny Motorola TV was featured. However, I did not realize at the time the set's shortcomings. I also remember a caption beneath one of the photos of the set in the article: "Don't wait for this (TV)...it's not going into production." My best guess is this was simply a prototype, which was never intended to be mass-produced.

old_tv_nut
04-02-2017, 11:36 AM
I can tell you for sure that this Motorola pocket set was never put into production nor intended to be. When I worked in the Advanced Development department in Franklin Park in the early 70's, my boss had it in his desk drawer as a memento. It may have been demoed on a high floor with line-of-sight reception to the downtown stations.

andy
04-02-2017, 11:14 PM
I think the only flat color CRT that made it into (limited) production was the Panasonic Flatvision from the early 90's.

Based on my experience with the KVX-370 Indextron, I don't see how they would get good performance from the Watchman style beam index CRT shown. Horizontal linearity and focus are crucial to achieving good color purity. The KVX-370 doesn't do very well with a conventional CRT.

etype2
04-03-2017, 12:17 AM
Based on the published specs for the 4 inch color Sony prototype flat index set, it would look similar to the KVX-370. Sony seemed to have gotten the deflection right on the 4 inch b&w watchman. Just wish I could find one if it was released.

Edit: The Panasonic Flatvision sold on EBay in June, 2015. Very rare indeed.

batterymaker
05-07-2017, 07:32 PM
Here is a photo on Ebay supposedly of a hand held battery operated color set from 1961? I knew they were working on such a unit in the mid to late sixties but I don't know about anything that early. Can anyone verify this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Press-Photo-RCA-Future-Portable-Color-Television-/230773378168?pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item35bb2a4c78

That is part of the 1961 "Sets of the Seventies", a design program RCA did to envision what sets would look like around 1970. It was led by Tucker Madawick. I was aiming to do an article for my radio club, but my mother got sick, then I was taking care of her and my family, then I had a kid, then this, then that. Here's a mockup of the bulletin cover and the first page:

etype2
05-08-2017, 05:00 AM
Thank you for posting this. First time I've seen the second photo in color. You say the concepts originated in 1961. That is two years prior to the published magazine cover, Mechanix Ilustrated, May, 1963.

Edit: These two concepts were part of eight concepts in total. Would you happen to have more information about that?