I was thinking about the number of playable B&W televisions and wondered it the number of actually playable sets are increasing. Certainly when color TVs became reasonably priced, consumers started switching to them.

So, what year do you think that the number of playable B&W TVs started their decline -- in addition, are we TV restorers making an impact on this number such that the decline is reversing and the number of playable B&W TVs are increasing?

I know this is just wildly subjective, but I find this interesting to ponder on while I wait for my next order of capacitors to arrive so I can get back on the bench:-)

Carl

Interesting question. The TV hobby has definitely taken flight since the days of the internet....when I started into TVs heavy back in the mid-1990s, I used to rely on the monthly Antique Radio Classified magazine to come in every month, and hopefully be the first to hop on the phone if I saw something I wanted :D

I used to run ads in the paper for sets, too. Came home with some wonderful treasures back then too.

Then came eBay, and prices for anything and everything went through the roof (the era of the $1,000 Alf lunch box and stuff :D ). I sold a lot back in those days just because it was an absolute feeding frenzy. In fact I remember getting about $600 for a nondescript Admiral 17" bakelite table set, plus about $100 for shipping.

As far as when the numbers started to decline, that's a tough thing to pinpoint as it's probably before I seriously entered the hobby 15 years ago. I do suspect, though, that vintage TVs in 20 years are going to be like Atwater-Kent breadboards today.....crazy high prices, only in the hands of collectors, and nobody will care if they work :)

Kamakiri, if you are right that in the future folks could care less if they played or not, its likely that a TV with un-molested/un-restored electronics will be more desirable than one that has been recapped and playable.

I would guess that the number of TVs we are making playable are less than 1 per day. Might be wrong and there might be more folks working on these TVs than we know about.

Carl



Interesting question. The TV hobby has definitely taken flight since the days of the internet....when I started into TVs heavy back in the mid-1990s, I used to rely on the monthly Antique Radio Classified magazine to come in every month, and hopefully be the first to hop on the phone if I saw something I wanted :D

I used to run ads in the paper for sets, too. Came home with some wonderful treasures back then too.

Then came eBay, and prices for anything and everything went through the roof (the era of the $1,000 Alf lunch box and stuff :D ). I sold a lot back in those days just because it was an absolute feeding frenzy. In fact I remember getting about $600 for a nondescript Admiral 17" bakelite table set, plus about $100 for shipping.

As far as when the numbers started to decline, that's a tough thing to pinpoint as it's probably before I seriously entered the hobby 15 years ago. I do suspect, though, that vintage TVs in 20 years are going to be like Atwater-Kent breadboards today.....crazy high prices, only in the hands of collectors, and nobody will care if they work :)

As far as what's going to be more desirable, that's anyone's guess. It's hard to predict what the standards will be for television in the future, if they'll be watchable via normal broadcast or if owners of working sets will be limited to VCR and DVD. I do think that since the broadcast standard made the big leap to DTV (and that took how long), another change in the signal isn't out of the question in the next decade.

Two schools of thought here. First, we can look at say a Model T Ford, an antique refrigerator, an old radio, what have you. While most people want them to work and use and enjoy them, there will always be people that only want to display them and don't care if they work.

The historical value comes long long down the road, say in a hundred years, when for most, it'd just be a display piece in the same way that nobody would hitch up an 1800s Wells Fargo stagecoach to ride around the property, serve the daily family dinners on a Stickley table, or stick an antique Indian canoe in the water for an afternoon on the lake. At that point, who can say?

The thing is, we won't be around 100 years from now. I say let's enjoy them while we can :)

Collector value seems to pop up as soon as something disappears from the scene... Case in point; you couldn't pay someone to take away a roundie color set in 1995, but now they're $100 & up for a total junker. You couldn't pay someone to take away a '79 Cadillac Seville Diesel, but now, despite the basic hatred for them by one and all, the Diesel engine now at least triples the eBay value of a '79 Seville. Why? Because they've disappeared.

As soon as you search a metropolitan CL section and can't find a 27" Sony Trinitron, you will see one go for $$$$$$ on eBay.

Charles

I was thinking about the number of playable B&W televisions and wondered it the number of actually playable sets are increasing. Certainly when color TVs became reasonably priced, consumers started switching to them.

...

One angle I see in your question is the number of B&W sets that got put in storage (like in the back room where it got rarely used) before the flyback, power transformer, CRT or other hard to find part failed. Because a new color TV displaced it out of regular use. And thus would need only the wax and electrolytic caps to be replaced to restore it. A few years ago a neighbor tossed an RCA B&W from the late 50s, and it still worked (albeit with a weak CRT) even before I did a recap. These sets would surface pretty much only at estate sales, as the owner didn't want to toss it before they checked out.

This is indeed an interesting question. Another factor which should be considered is the technology progression in consumer electronics. Up until the late '70's, consumer electronics equipment construction facilitated repair. Service manual organizations flourished, local TV repair shops were numerous and replacement parts were made readily available for fixing TV sets.

Since consumer electronics is now considerably more sophisticated and the manufacture has now migrated overseas, the chances of extending the natural life of a post year 2000 TV will be more difficult. Early sets will still need a signal and as interlaced 525 NTSC video remains available, it is a relatively simple matter to get it into an old set.

I forsee in the not too distant future that there may emerge a "chronological gap" of working TV sets between older simpler TV technology and the newer sets. On the other hand, maybe the newer sets are just that much more reliable and will continue to run?

Another thing is that we collectors are attracted to visually appealing TVs and Historically important ones. Perhaps 100 years from now Television will evolve to wall-to-wall floor-to-ceiling displays you put up like wallpaper. Then, those flat panel TVs will be like the B&W TVs we like and those "projection" TVs will be like the 1940's projection TVs we like today.

Furniture tastes are evolving and 100 years from now interior design might make the furniture we use today as unappealing as an old straw seat straight back chair.

Carl

Working BW TV sets get destroyed each day; across the USA right now there are dozens of 12" BW sets from the 80s-90s which work just fine but are sitting in the bottom of a dumpster, unloved. Today, a working 21" console from the mid-50s will be put out to the curb somewhere and none of us will be there to rescue it. Perhaps the number of BW sets that actually see some use is increasing, though. If not yet, I think it will eventually. It very well may be that if you took a good poll of everyone in your town, almost nobody is using a BW set on a regular basis.

The same thing is happening today, since digital TV took over from analog NTSC almost three years ago. I can only guess (and even then I'd probably be way off) how many people thought television was ending forever and threw out the old analog set after hearing those dire announcements over the radio and on standard TV, not to mention reading in their town's local newspaper, that "your TV will go black after xx/xx/2006 and will be useless", or words to that effect, and again when the final DTV transition hard date, 2/17/2009, was announced.

Since consumer electronics is now considerably more sophisticated and the manufacture has now migrated overseas, the chances of extending the natural life of a post year 2000 TV will be more difficult. Early sets will still need a signal and as interlaced 525 NTSC video remains available, it is a relatively simple matter to get it into an old set.

I forsee in the not too distant future that there may emerge a "chronological gap" of working TV sets between older simpler TV technology and the newer sets. On the other hand, maybe the newer sets are just that much more reliable and will continue to run?

I can't resist comparing consumer electronics and cars here:
It is more likely that the 1950's era TV's will remain serviceable with basic parts if for no other reason but simplicity and ubiquitous tube types,etc :banana: we can always get. Just like a ford, chevy or mopar from the same era. Coversely, the sets from the 80's onward used custom solid state parts, sweep circuits,CRT's etc just like the over-featured and complicated cars we have in the last 30 years. Those will be nearly impossible to swap parts on.:sigh: I sure won't shed a tear over junking late 70's and newer cars :banana: My apologies to anybody born after 1979, this is just my car opinion, im sure the gov't will again interfere with auto design and repeat the mistakes of the 70's on grander scale.

If I found a light green 1973 Ford Galaxie 500 4-dr sedan in good shape, I might be tempted. Let's just say a special memory is involved...!

If I found a light green 1973 Ford Galaxie 500 4-dr sedan in good shape, I might be tempted. Let's just say a special memory is involved...!

Special memory in the front seat, or the back seat:-)

I had a 1971 white Ford Galaxy 500 4-door. Big old car. Bench seats, lots of room in that car. Mine had a cracked exhaust manifold. And yeah, special memories too:-)

Carl

If I found a light green 1973 Ford Galaxie 500 4-dr sedan in good shape, I might be tempted. Let's just say a special memory is involved...!

the Reverend Horton Heat wrote a song about that car...:yes:

Got a running 79 pinto with at least 2 good memories in it :D

Due to the distruction of B&W sets mentioned above, I believe they are holding their own at best. At my house, the number of B&W sets that are working is increasing(although I have setbacks now and then as once they operate awhile something other than a paper or electrolytic cap will fail).

As to the signal change mentioned above, with the cell phone companies wanting to hog all the spectrum they can, the change may be to no advertizer funded over the air TV. Not ethical in my opinion, but politicians continue to be bought. Recently I saw that the cell phone companies are trying to get some of the DOD spectrum-how is that good for national defense?

As to 1970s cars, I have a 1978 Mustang II. As it is only one of four that I know of in the Austin, Texas area, I win prizes regularly at car shows. Ford made over a million of these in five years, most were crushed. However, I do not think it is extremely valuable. I recently saw both a Ford Pinto and American Motors Gremlin at car shows. These are also scarce, but not to valuable! I have not recently seen an American Motors Pacer, otherwise known as a pregnant Pinto, though.

Yesterday I was reading this page:
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/factories/windsor-1975.html
Really sad to think that most of what they are making in these photos is now long, long gone.

Yesterday I was reading this page:
http://www.allpar.com/corporate/factories/windsor-1975.html
Really sad to think that most of what they are making in these photos is now long, long gone.

A good friend of mine sold his '75 Cordoba last year. A few months later the buyer came into his shop and told him the car had broken down on the highway and was subsequently stolen off the side of the road! A week later my friend was in the local pull-a-part and guess what's there? That junkyard pays by the pound for cars, and evidently didn't ask for the title.

A good friend of mine sold his '75 Cordoba last year. A few months later the buyer came into his shop and told him the car had broken down on the highway and was subsequently stolen off the side of the road! A week later my friend was in the local pull-a-part and guess what's there? That junkyard pays by the pound for cars, and evidently didn't ask for the title.

A friend of mine had a Cordoba when they were popular - remember Ricardo Montalban's "real Corinthian leather". I remember that Cordoba as having flimsy plastic interior pieces - noticeably cheap quality.

Carl

A good friend of mine sold his '75 Cordoba last year. A few months later the buyer came into his shop and told him the car had broken down on the highway and was subsequently stolen off the side of the road! A week later my friend was in the local pull-a-part and guess what's there? That junkyard pays by the pound for cars, and evidently didn't ask for the title.
They just rounded up a group of car thieves in Milwaukee. They were stealing running, older model cars from the streets in the older section of town. They were doing the same thing.:nono:

I think there are far more early B&W TV's in good working condition now
than in many years because of collectros/restorers like us. Sets made
in the 1950's and later are on the decline because
they are not collectable. At least right now. One exception might be
the small pocket TV's. I know I've picked up a few dozen of these just
beacuse they are dirt cheap, small, and you have to admire the
engineering that went into them (IMO).
Steve W6SSP

Seventies cars need to be kept & preserved as examples of how NOT to make cars...(grin)

:A friend of mine had a Cordoba when they were popular - remember Ricardo Montalban's "real Corinthian leather". I remember that Cordoba as having flimsy plastic interior pieces - noticeably cheap quality.

Carl

Evidently, you didn't look carefully at the GM and Ford offerings, that were built at the same time. The entire interior panels and other fittings in my Toyota are all plastic and I could care less. :yes:

Had a '75 Lincoln Continental with leather seats but the plastic door liners were junk. They cracked and rattled and fell apart. This was in the late '70's early '80's. Lower part of the fenders rotted out from the junk metal. I got good at bodywork and sticking door parts back together.

Since the DTV transition, I've gotten lots of 5"/9"/12" B&W sets from the late '60's on up.

In my area, channels 24 and 30 turned off their analog signal before channel 11. About a week before channel 11 was to switch, an older lady called to say that she could no longer receive channels 24 and 30 on her kitchen TV and she insisted that I look at her TV. When I arrived, I found an early '80's RCA 12" B&W set and I explained to her that nothing was wrong with her TV. I went on to explain that channel 11 would be going digital in one week and she would then lose all reception on that TV, unless she connected it to a DTV converter box. Despite all the long running PSA's concerning DTV, this lady had no clue what it meant. I explained how she could get a DTV converter for little cost; but, she was not interested. She said she couldn't justify spending any money to make an old B&W TV watchable and she told me to take the set home with me when I left. Had I not taken that set, it would have likely gone in the trash can. Outside of a few collectors, no one wants these types of B&W sets and people don't think twice about tossing them.

I have a friend, who re-sells things, and he's always going to yard sales. To make it simple, I told him to pick up any TV with a knob tuner if it was priced reasonable. So far, he's gotten me several 12" B&W sets and a few '70's/'80's color TV.

In a few years, these later B&W sets will probably be very hard to find. It's like back in the early '90's, I had no problem finding color roundies, older B&W consoles, or any other TV from the tube era. The early '90's was an era when the last round of tube TV's were being retired for solid state sets and people were real quick to throw them out or give them to people who wanted them. Back then, I had no desire to collect TV's. My main interest was to fix and resell TV's in order to buy antique radios.

Fast forward a few years and the tube sets became harder to find; but, solid state sets from the '70's and '80's started turning up more. Again, people were replacing these sets with newer TV's.

Now, it's somewhat rare around here to see a TV older than the mid '90's.

There is still stuff to be discovered; but, the bulk of the older stuff has already been discarded or given away.

In 50 years, there will probably be collectors getting excited because they found a 19" Sanyo LCD TV on the side of the road. If most of us found such a set today, we'd probably leave it at the side of the road.

It seems like you can get re-manufactured parts for classic cars and keep them running for ever.. But no one is rebuilding or making replicas of picture tubes, so if this continues we will eventually have sets only making sound.. I would think in the near future that someone would start manufacturing flybacks and crts to keep these sets alive.. It seems there is a little market for that since there are alot of collectors out there and more that are to start..

In thrift shops I see mostly TV sets from the 90s and 2000s.. Rarely anything 80s, and never anything tube.. Back in 1990s I use to see tube sets and 80s sets in the Goodwill and Salvation Army stores all the time.. I use to see 8 Track tapes and now I rarely see those.. Many of these thrift shops won't put out anything that even looks old.. These old clickers that ends up in there donation ben will end up in the dumpster working or not.. These thrift shops are very picky to what they put out on the floor for stuff they get for nothing..

Seventies cars need to be kept & preserved as examples of how NOT to make cars...(grin)

I would love to find a decent 1973 Ford Galaxie 500 4-door sedan! Pluses would be a 351C 4bbl, dual exhausts, light green paint with green vinyl upholstery. Not only did it bring home my 1975 RCA 19" B&W set I bought with cash at Luskins (and still works with a DTV box on it), but I have a very sentimental reason for wanting one.

Yes, I know about Thomas Wolfe.

And, the Pinto was a very bad car. Including my '74 wagon. (2.3L engine, Auto box, AM radio, and A/C. Turning on the A/C saved a lot of brake wear.) I think many of them were recycled into cans for "Scotch Buy" beer.

And, the Pinto was a very bad car. Including my '74 wagon. (2.3L engine, Auto box, AM radio, and A/C. Turning on the A/C saved a lot of brake wear.) I think many of them were recycled into cans for "Scotch Buy" beer.[/QUOTE]

My brother bought a lease-return 75 Pinto wagon for his wife. It was the more deluxe model with the walnut grain wallpaper on it. I took it for a ride and when I returned I replied "that baby really moves for a four banger". My brother replied "look under the hood". It had a small V-6 in it.
PS. Was "Scotch Buy" beer the lowest priced beer in your area.:D

I love this thread! And it got me thinking.. about how many working B&W sets have gotten tossed because NOBODY would want one. I remember in our Zenith store, the cut-off point for B&W sales was about 1983. My uncle had the Zenith store display for B&W portables, and finally quit ordering any because the ones on the shelf were getting so old. But god.. I remember as a kid.. (circa 1976) when I was given an old Philco Seventeener and thought I was SO COOL because I finally had a set in my room. I've attached some pix of a K-mart B&W set that was given to me by Tim almost 8 years ago. It's a 74 or 75 tube set... still works great. I've kept it all this time because it was interesting to me that K-mart even had a store brand. The pix is snowy because I was trying to get the one UHF analog station we have in the area....

I have a little 9" Panasonic B/W Tooob set from the late Sixties/early Seventies time period...Their El-Cheapo B/W line was Tooob for quite awhile. Mine plays fine, just like the l'il trooper it is. Nice "Tubey" smell, too...That's worth a LOT right there !

and now.. after reading thru the posts, I'm firing up my B&W sets. This pix is of the 1979 Zenith B&W we used to have in our kitchen.
And W3XWT.. UGH! I had a 73 Ford LTD that I do believe was the biggest POS I ever owned, well that or a tie with my 78 Mercury Bobcat. My LTD had the 400 engine in it, which I think Ford had issues with..... The 2 cars I wish I had were my grandparents 71 Ford Wagon.. I think it was a Galaxy... my other grandparents 65 Ford Galaxie, and I would love to see a model of my first car which was a 72 Pontiac Bonneville. I haven't seen ANY of those around here in AGES.

My first car was a '75 Chevy Vega, probably an even worse car than the Pinto. I still see old Pintos on the road once in a blue moon, but I haven't seen a Vega in decades.

My first car was a '75 Chevy Vega, probably an even worse car than the Pinto.

Back in the late 70s I had a 72 Pinto and my brother had a 74 or so Vega. One night, my brother takes a girl out on a date at the movies. Later, movie is over, his Vega won't start. He calls me, I come rescue him in my Pinto. Last date he had with that girl... :D She probably figured that we had no clue when it came to cars...

The Vega was actually a NEAT little car, as envisioned by its father, the late Eddie Cole, who was also the ramrod behind the 1955 Chevy V-8. It just suffered from cost-cutting measures & extremely poor execution, & was rushed into production w/o so much as a "By-Your-Leave"... The all-aluminum engine& the brand-new technology developed especially for it were never really "Put thru the wringer", as it were. The new-from-the-ground-up plant in Lordstown, Ohio was full of young, inexperienced workers, who were also VERY militant towards management. The paints & primers used were especially inadequate-Cost-cutting again-And Vegas suffered EXTREME early rust out. They didn't ride well. They were cramped inside, despite not being all THAT small, at least by today's standards. There was never a 4-door model, & the little wagon, while pretty, was not really all that practical. The BEST thing about a Vega was that you could drop a 350 V-8 in one almost w/yr eyes closed.

I'm really not sure that I have seen a Vega in the last 30 years that didn't have a V8 in it! I've hardly seen any, period. My old barber used to have a couple that he drag raced. The Pinto, well, I always hated the looks of 'em but I still see one on the road every so often.

The Vega was known as "the only car to rust in the showroom". I agree, it was rushed into production and destruction. It could of been a good car with a lot more testing. They were trying to catch up to the pinto but lost. The pinto wasn't too bad depending on the year and engine choice. The Ford Escort that replaced the Pinto was MUCH worse. Oil burning POS. They obviously got better as they got newer. Friends of my parents bought a brand new 1981 Escort automatic. All 4 jumped in for a trip to Vegas. It overheated on the Baker grade. There are 2 known Cosworth Vega's in this area but I believe those are the only ones left. Still a lot of Pinto's around here.

Here's my 1970 Zenith 12" portable I bought new at Woolco in Dekalb IL for around $100 back then. It was used for about ten years and since then has basically sat. It still has all the original components save about three new tubes. This pic was taken off the air a few years ago before the digital invasion.

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w204/wrnewton/Reece%20Radio%20Pix/ZenithTV382008018.jpg

I'm really not sure that I have seen a Vega in the last 30 years that didn't have a V8 in it! I've hardly seen any, period. My old barber used to have a couple that he drag raced. The Pinto, well, I always hated the looks of 'em but I still see one on the road every so often.

Had a '72. The engine pistons were running in the aluminum bores and wore out in no time. Alot of people with the 4 cylinder engine had the engine bored out and installed steel sleeves for the pistons to run on. These cars ran fairly well.

I kept my car in a garage, and washed and waxed it waay too much. I was horrified when the first rust bubble appeared in the paint. The guy that bought it from me put a 283 V8 in it.

I found a Sanyo built Sears 9" yesterday, full of compactrons. More to come on this later.

Youngsters.....

I drive a 1961 VW Bus. :banana:

It's almost as old as I am. Probably has over 500,000 miles on it (not on the engine, of course). Use it daily, and can haul console sets. No power steering, no power brakes, no electronic fuel injection, no power windows, no cruise control, no power door locks. Very reliable. If we ever do have a solar flare, I'll be the only guy in town that still has a running car. :thmbsp:

i drive a 1977 gmc k20 4x4 pickup i restored in 04, i just bought a liftgate for it so it will be easyer to get tv's in the back. you know when you see one some where and pick up by yourself ,see im thinking ,when you see a console along the road and your by yourself now i can get it in my truck alone. if you have to get help your family member has time to talk you out of it,with a liftgate your pulling in the drive before anyone can say do you need another tv .

When they designed the Vega, it was aimed at the younger car buyer. Inexpensive to buy and run, almost sporty. Most young car buyers don't want a four door car. They also figured a small wagon would appeal to some buyers for camping, fishing etc.
History proved them wrong.

Since there is a big discussion of cars mixed in with the B&W TVs, I recommend that a moderator split off the car comments into a new topic in the "General forums" category.

My brother bought a lease-return 75 Pinto wagon for his wife. It was the more deluxe model with the walnut grain wallpaper on it. I took it for a ride and when I returned I replied "that baby really moves for a four banger". My brother replied "look under the hood". It had a small V-6 in it.
PS. Was "Scotch Buy" beer the lowest priced beer in your area.:D


I do believe that V6 was none other than the Cologne, Germany-built Ford 2.8 liter that also came in the 72-76 Capri's sold at Mercury dealers. Those things would fly with a 4-speed box.

I knew someone that had a 2.0 liter 4-cylinder (another German-Ford) that was not too shabby either. I hated the 2.3 liter engines because I could never get those stupid Holley 2-barrell carburetors set right...:thumbsdn:

In my hometown... still sitting on the used car-lot is a one owner 74 Ford Maverick. I always remember the "Maverick" because of a TV show I loved in the 70's "Family"
In the TV series.. the family was portrayed as upper middle-class, yet.. they always drove Pinto's and Mavericks, which I thought kind of odd.
This Maverick is mint.. with 64K, and I had quite the surprise when I opened the hood and it had a 302 V-8. However.. when I sat in the car (I must be getting too old and FAT) but the bench seat had NO support what-so-ever, the most UNcomfortable car I ever sat in......