I'm trying to get to the bottom of a rumor (actually several) which I've heard over the past 20 years, on the subject of exactly what happened between RCA & Zenith when Zenith put out the prototype 43M20 color set.

The tube in the Zenith was basically an identical copy of one of the RCA prototype tubes with the screw heads showing in the mask. It's my understanding that Zenith got hold of that design, and had Rauland build it "slightly without proper licensing". Consequently, a suit was filed, and Zenith lost. The result supposedly was the long delay (til at least 1961) before Zenith came out with a color TV.

Rumor #2, is that Zenith had to swear to recall and destroy all of those 43M20 sets as of December of '53, but since I know of at least a couple of them existing today with the original screwhead tube, this didn't happen. One of them I know was stolen from the lobby of the Biltmore Hotel in Oakland, CA from where it was on public display. It is still in California.

Does anyone have any case info on this, or is it all a bunch of made-up hooey? I don't know much about legal case research, so maybe if there's a paralegal or lawyer among us, would it be possible to find the case? No idea of dates or actual names on it.

Charles

I dunno, but from what little you relate here, sounds like it'd be a DAMN good story. The emnity between Sarnoff & McDonald, & their respective companies was palpable-Reportedly, The General & Cdr. McDonald could barely stand to be in the same room w/each other...McDonald was a patrician WASP type, & Sarnoff...Well, he WASN'T. (grin)

I did not find anything about that particular conflict, but I came across an interesting
paper:

E. W. Herold, 'A History of Color Television Displays', Proceedings of the IEEE,
vol. 64, no. 9, Sept. 1976, pp. 1331-1338.

Any large university library should have this available for reading on line. Good
luck with your request.

P.S.: here is some possibly useful related info.

The author of the above paper acted as an expert witness in at least three
court cases, but unfortunately not the one you are referring to. See this link:

http://www.davidsarnoff.org/ewh-appendix01.html

Other link about Herold:

http://www.davidsarnoff.org/ewh-editorialnotes.html

Well I know that Zenith waited untill about 1948 to make consumer TV sets so they could make the best ones on the market....I sort of assumed they just did the same thing when color arrived, but this rumor is makeing me think otherwise.

Also I think that the Zenith 15" prototypes used the 15HP22 which was their electromagnetically converged variant of the 15GP22(which RCA created, and was ELECTROSTATICALLY converged). I assumed that RCA was fine with them experimenting with the modifications of their CRT in hopes of advancing color TV, but now I wonder....

Charles,

Perhaps the Ventura County main library has the N.Y. Times index for 1951,'52 '53. Or what ever year the suit may have occured. This would list all articles published in the Times for that year. Items are listed alphabetically. ie: Color TV, RCA, Zenith ect.

-Steve D.

You could also ask a librarian at the reference desk to help you find likely sources. I have had good luck that way, when I was able to get a librarian interested. (Much more interesting question for them than 13-year old kids wanting help with homework.)

Phil Nelson

Also I think that the Zenith 15" prototypes used the 15HP22 which was their electromagnetically converged variant of the 15GP22(which RCA created, and was ELECTROSTATICALLY converged). I assumed that RCA was fine with them experimenting with the modifications of their CRT in hopes of advancing color TV, but now I wonder....

Huh? Are you sure of that? The early tube manuals that I have show that both were electrostatic convergence (and had the same base connections). The difference being that the HP22 had the phosphor dots on the curved faceplate, rather than on a flat plate inside the jug.

jr

Well I know that Zenith waited untill about 1948 to make consumer TV sets so they could make the best ones on the market....I sort of assumed they just did the same thing when color arrived, but this rumor is makeing me think otherwise.

Also I think that the Zenith 15" prototypes used the 15HP22 which was their electromagnetically converged variant of the 15GP22(which RCA created, and was ELECTROSTATICALLY converged). I assumed that RCA was fine with them experimenting with the modifications of their CRT in hopes of advancing color TV, but now I wonder....

Huh? Are you sure of that? The early tube manuals that I have show that both were electrostatic convergence (and had the same base connections). The difference being that the HP22 had the phosphor dots on the curved faceplate, rather than on a flat plate inside the jug.

jr

The one I saw, had the RCA type convergence and flat phosphor plate. In fact to test the tube, the former owner drove it with a CT-100 chassis. I think I read something about another earlier Zenith prototype with a different tube, but the 43M20, I believe, was a pre-production prototype (to go to market virtually as-shown at some point), similar to the RCA Model 5, which had very few changes when it became the CT-100.

Charles

The Zenith 15" color sets came with RAULAND built versions of the RCA 15GP22. RCA was eager to license the CRT design to other manufactures, so it would seem unlikely that there would be any dispute over a Rauland built version. But I don't have any knowledge of legal issues one way or the other.

The 15HP22 was built by CBS-Hytron, and used the same electron gun and convergence scheme as a 15GP22, but had the phosphor dots placed directly on the faceplate of the CRT, with a curved shadow mask behind it. The RCA design 15GP22 had a flat phosphor dot plate with a flat shadow mask behind it. RCA was obliged to spend a million dollars for rights to the Hytron invention, and used it to produce the 21AXP22. To my knowledge, Hytron only produced the 15HP22 and the 19VP22 (which used magnetic convergence). I wonder if RCA bought exclusive rights to the Hytron dots-on-the-faceplate/curved shadow mask invention? Or did Hytron just get out of the color CRT business because they could see that the immediate business prospects for color TV looked grim?

The Zenith 15" color sets came with RAULAND built versions of the RCA 15GP22. RCA was eager to license the CRT design to other manufactures, so it would seem unlikely that there would be any dispute over a Rauland built version. But I don't have any knowledge of legal issues one way or the other.

The 15HP22 was built by CBS-Hytron, and used the same electron gun and convergence scheme as a 15GP22, but had the phosphor dots placed directly on the faceplate of the CRT, with a curved shadow mask behind it. The RCA design 15GP22 had a flat phosphor dot plate with a flat shadow mask behind it. RCA was obliged to spend a million dollars for rights to the Hytron invention, and used it to produce the 21AXP22. To my knowledge, Hytron only produced the 15HP22 and the 19VP22 (which used magnetic convergence). I wonder if RCA bought exclusive rights to the Hytron dots-on-the-faceplate/curved shadow mask invention? Or did Hytron just get out of the color CRT business because they could see that the immediate business prospects for color TV looked grim?

Oh boy; talk about asking the bully for his own lunch money :music:

I'm thinking based on a faint recollection of something I read, that RCA licensed the 15GP22 design to Zenith for research only, and that Zenith was to have a royalty agreement in place with RCA PRIOR to contracting to build it for marketable sets, and they jumped the gun. Something like that.

Charles

RCA was obliged to spend a million dollars for rights to the Hytron invention, and used it to produce the 21AXP22.

So CBS actually designed a better Color CRT than RCA?
Then who, in reality, won the technical color race?
CBS. :banana:
[No blue bananas here, only bright yellow ones!]

My take on this from a business point of view is that CBS was smart enough to understand that their superior patent for placing phosphor dots on the inside face of the crt using a photographic process with colimated light source, was more valuable if sold to RCA, than if they had tried to market color tv sets. I would imagine that CBS understood that even if they had played hardball against RCA and refused to license or sell the CBS patent, that the public was not ready to spend big dollars to own a color tv set. And because patents only have a life of 7 years, eventually RCA would be able to use the process that CBS invented free of royalty any way. So why hang on to a patent that dosent make you any money. So CBS sold it to RCA and put a million bucks in their pocket while RCA invested and lost many millions of dollars for many years trying to promote color television.

CBS may have lost the color wars on the starndards issue, but in my eyes they were the ones that won the color war based on superior color crt technology.

I was down at John Folsom's a few weeks ago and we were working on the CBS set with the 19VP22. I gotta tell you that it has a "KNOCK YOUR SOCKS OFF" picture that makes a CT100 look pretty shabby in comparison. We're talking full gamut phosphors deposited directly on the face of the crt, and dynamic electromagnetic convergence that works very well. I think if CBS had the financial resources and the desire to block RCA and run with it's crt patent to compete against RCA, I think CBS would have been considered the company that brought color tv to the masses and not RCA.

But in the end it's always about the money. He who has the deepest pockets and can weather the storm for the longest, usually is the winner. RCA won because it had very deep pockets and they were willing to lose as much money as necessary to win the color war. Thankfully we still have examples of the 19" CBS set to demonstrate how far out in front of RCA, that CBS actually was. OF course this is just my opinion, but I think that most any collector who was to see the 19" CBS set in person would agree, that it runs rings around anything RCA had to offer.

And in the end nobody really knows what went on behind the scenes of the negotiations for RCA to obtain the CBS patent. In all likelyhood, RCA had patents on circuits and demod techniques which were used as a wedge against CBS to convince CBS to sell the CRT patent to RCA. Sarnoff was a ruthless business man and he would stop at nothing to get what he wanted.

A good example of the "better mousetrap" was the fellow that invented the intermitant windshield wiper that Ford Motor Co. stole. It took that poor fellow many years to fight against Ford and to finally be vindicated. IN the process it pretty much ruined his personal life. My guess is that CBS knew what they were up against in dealing with RCA, and CBS made the only smart business decission they could make. And that was to take the money and sell the patent to RCA.

John Folsom has a lot of very rare color sets. There isn't a single one in the bunch that isn't ultra rare and super desireable. But when it comes down to the nitty gritty, I would have to vote for the CBS 19" color set as being at the top of the list for performance and quality of craftsmenship. I think CBS knew what a wonderful CRT they had produced, and I think they wanted to market a set that would demonstrate the ability of that CRT. CBS spared no expense in producing this set. Every last detail says "high quality and expensive" From the service man oriented, dual chassis design with up front service controls and the removable CRT truck to the massive cabinet made from, thick, solid, heavy materials, this set says "CADILAC" in every respect. You've got to see it to understand.

Interesting observations about the 19VP22. I am not impressed with the picture on our Motorola with the 19V, and find it worse than the 15G sets. Maybe a difference in the quality of the CBS set vs. the Motorola.

Interesting observations about the 19VP22. I am not impressed with the picture on our Motorola with the 19V, and find it worse than the 15G sets. Maybe a difference in the quality of the CBS set vs. the Motorola.

Did Motorola ever produce a color set with a decent picture?
I remember in the 70's working on some of their 1960's & 70's sets and they seemed pretty awful then.

CBS selling that process sounds like a very, very wise business decision to me. Paley would live to see RCA crumble and be parted-out while his company kept trucking along.

Motorola always struck me as a company with some real smarts, but no concerns in the end about having the best performing TV on the market. Their tube-chassis color sets seemed to have been designed to a price point more than a quality level. Might be interesting to hear what the resident Motorola engineer has to say about that :)

The CBS 205 is a stunning performer with its 19VP22 CRT. Ironically, though, the IF/Video/Chroma processing elements were direct copies of the CT100 design, undoubtedly licensed from RCA. This, along with the superior 19VP22 accounts for the excellent performance of the set. And you got to give CBS high marks for their cabinet styling. Very stylish, no? CBS did use a different tuner, and designed their own horizontal and vertical sweep and convergence components, except for the yoke, which RCA supplied.

Did Motorola ever produce a color set with a decent picture?
I remember in the 70's working on some of their 1960's & 70's sets and they seemed pretty awful then.

All the years I serviced I never seen a decent picture on a Motorola set. The pictures lacked detail and always seemed to proceed a very orangy red. Not until Matshushita bought Quasar did any type of quality start to show up.

Interesting observations about the 19VP22. I am not impressed with the picture on our Motorola with the 19V, and find it worse than the 15G sets..

Sounds like one could build a Frankenset with the Motorola deflection and high voltage sections, and maybe the convergence circuits, and use the better CBS IF strip and color demodulator circuits to drive the CRT.

To simplify things, forget the IF and tuner, and make it an NTSC monitor, as over the air and soon cable NTSC is no more.

Motorola experiences I had with the TS-914, 918, 938 WID were an easy to fix set.
It was easy to wiggle and adjust without a mirror on the WID sets.
Also seemed to avoid most costly or catastrophic failures. The Kinescopes (23EGP22,
25XP22)were a bit short of Zenith, but certainly outlasted GE, Philco and Mags.

The front ends just never seemed that great and required relatively strong signal for a passable AGC response. Nothing like the wireless products and emergency radios.

They seemed to copy Zenith and Admiral in many ways. But, I must admit, I could never get them to look sharp and with true-color. RCA and Zenith looked the best.

Motorola experiences I had with the TS-914, 918, 938 WID were an easy to fix set.
It was easy to measure, wiggle and adjust without a mirror on the WID sets.
Also seemed to avoid most costly or catastrophic failures. The Kinescopes (23EGP22,
25XP22)were a bit short of Zenith, but certainly outlasted GE, Philco and Mags.

The front ends just never seemed that great and required relatively strong signal for a passable AGC response. Nothing like the wireless products and emergency radios.

They seemed to copy Zenith and Admiral in many ways. But, I must admit, I could never get them to look sharp and with true-color. RCA and Zenith looked the best.

I worked on many Motorola color sets in the '60's as we specifically only did warranty work on Zenith and Motorola. I must say that as much as I hated them, the 23EGP22 sets (when working properly) had a nice rich color. They also had a first with the "Colortone" control on the front with the color controls. It changed the tracking of the tube to move the monochrome picture from a sepia to a bluish screen (w/B&W in the middle) much like the computer monitors do now. The reds were OK in the EG but not as nice as the sulphide 21FB's of the time.

Today you are really hard pressed to find any example of a 23EGP22 complete set. They are very rare because they disappeared quickly from time of manufacture. Their CRT's were a disaster on top of a very short life span with fewer that were converted to a 25XP22. It took me 15 years to find a nice one for my collection. I don't know if it has any emission until I get other projects out of the way but I will need all the luck I can get.

They also had a first with the "Colortone" control on the front with the color controls. It changed the tracking of the tube to move the monochrome picture from a sepia to a bluish screen (w/B&W in the middle) much like the computer monitors do now.

This control was on some of the chassis that used the one-tube color section ("SODPIL" - self-oscillating, detecting, phase injection lock). It was needed because in this cost-cutting design the demodulator outputs were direct coupled to the CRT grids rather than keyed-clamped like the RCA designs. So, adjustment was needed to get proper tracking. Some even cheaper chassis deleted the customer adjustment. Most people could not adjust their color sets when they had two color controls, and these sets had three.

Unfortunately, this was NOT like a computer monitor color temperature adjustment, since it was varying the DC bias, not the RGB gains.

I worked on many Motorola color sets in the '60's as we specifically only did warranty work on Zenith and Motorola. I must say that as much as I hated them, the 23EGP22 sets (when working properly) had a nice rich color. They also had a first with the "Colortone" control on the front with the color controls. It changed the tracking of the tube to move the monochrome picture from a sepia to a bluish screen (w/B&W in the middle) much like the computer monitors do now. The reds were OK in the EG but not as nice as the sulphide 21FB's of the time.

Today you are really hard pressed to find any example of a 23EGP22 complete set. They are very rare because they disappeared quickly from time of manufacture. Their CRT's were a disaster on top of a very short life span with fewer that were converted to a 25XP22. It took me 15 years to find a nice one for my collection. I don't know if it has any emission until I get other projects out of the way but I will need all the luck I can get.

Julian, If your 23EG is no good you might try looking here....

http://antiquetvguy.com/Web%20Pages/For%20Sale/Picture%20Tubes%20For%20Sale/Picture%20Tubes%20for%20Sale.html

Julian, If your 23EG is no good you might try looking here....


Thanks Bob, I'll see what I can do with him as it wouldn't hurt to have a spare. J.

http://antiquetvguy.com/Web%20Pages/For%20Sale



/Picture%20Tubes%20For%20Sale/Picture%20Tubes%20for%20Sale.html[/QUOTE]