View Full Version : The elusive Indextron


Dave A
06-26-2010, 10:55 PM
I was watching this one on that auction place. A rare version in a white cabinet. But with the usual problems. "3/4 of a picture" as described. The hammer went down at $405 and it was only 5 miles from me. Way above my checkbook. Seller found it at a yard sale. Note to self...check more yard sales and be kind to the Indextron I already have.

danrulz98
06-26-2010, 10:58 PM
What is it? A portable TV?

Dave A
06-26-2010, 11:22 PM
The Indextron was a Sony name for a variant of the Philco Apple beam-index CRT color picture tube from the late 50's that Philco gave up on. Sony ended up with the patent. It was a Watchman-sized SS set at 3.5" or so.

It had no shadow mask and relied on a rear-mounted photocell to track the single-gun beam crossing the vertical phosphor stripes, switching color at each stripe. The photocell monitored the beam position and made the color change as the sweep went on.

Each stripe was separated by a black stripe to prevent cross-color contamination and allowing the clean switch during the black stripe. IE, the beam hitting the red and overlapping in to the green.

Red/black/green/black/blue/black and so on. The beam focus is the most critical to prevent overlap in to the next stripe and illuminating two stripes. Red plus green = yellow, etc.

The big problem was that 25% or so of the screen was black stripes and diminished the brightness. No shadow mask should be a bonus but the black stripe killed any gain. Aside from that problem, it does make a very sharp picture. The other big Sony problem was cheap surface caps. Mine needed around 20 or so replaced to make it operative. This one needs the full re-cap.

Sony only made it for a while in 1988. Most are dead and only a handful have shown up. This is the first white cabinet seen by me.

andy
06-26-2010, 11:22 PM
I'd like one, but they aren't worth (to me) what they often go for.

jr_tech
06-27-2010, 12:28 AM
Did this design use UV phosphor stripes as the index reference?
I have never seen one in operation... how good is the contrast?... it would seem that some minimum beam current must be landing on the screen at all times in order for the photocell to detect the index reference stripes, wouldn't that wash out the back level somewhat?

just curious,
jr

Sandy G
06-27-2010, 06:45 AM
IIRC, part of the "lore" of these things is that Sony soon realised they had a "turkey" or "Edsel" of biblical proportions on their hands, & recalled them, & most were destroyed...Very few survived, & even fewer work...

kx250rider
06-27-2010, 11:55 AM
WHITE ONE!!!!!!??????????????? I had no idea they made that set in white... My gray Indextron just fell in lust, and needs a companion :)

Although it's bad etiquette to discuss price & value on items already sold, I have to say I'd be thrilled to get it at that price (assuming funds on hand, of course).

Sony soon realised they had a "turkey" or "Edsel" of biblical proportions on their hands, & recalled them, & most were destroyed...Very few survived, & even fewer work...

That white one and mine would look great, displayed on the hood of my 1982 Cadillac with the Olds 350 Diesel engine, LOL. Turkeys of the century....

Charles

Sandy G
06-27-2010, 01:08 PM
Aww, shit, Charles, the 350 Weasel was a Paragon of Mechanical Virtue compared to the 262...That morphodite should have never seen the light of day past GM testing labs...

Dave A
06-27-2010, 06:59 PM
To save a lot of space here, this Wikipedia article does a good job of explaining the original Apple tube and the beam-index tube;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-index_tube

The photo is my Indextron on the left next to my Sony KV-5000 CRT 5" set. The stripes are obvious.

More on the Apple can be found at Chuck A's website. Lots of original Philco documentation;

http://www.myvintagetv.com/philco_apple_tube.htm

And the schematic of the Indextron is attached if you want to reverse-engineer the thing . The photocell is on the "N" board. Courtesy of Jerome Halpen. There are previous VK threads on the Indextron if you search.

jr_tech
06-28-2010, 02:42 PM
Thanks for all the info! The picture IMHO, shows that these sets were better than I would have expected... the black does not appear to be "washed out" by the "index beam" current... Purity at the edges might have been an issue, but the set does not appear to be a "turkey" either. Gotta find one. :yes:
jr

jhalphen
06-29-2010, 05:09 AM
Hi Guys,

so who is the lucky winner of the US $405.00 Indextron, one of us ?

If he hangs out here, i can give him the full service data (schematic & tune-up), just ask for it or send a PM.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

Username1
07-02-2010, 09:26 AM
I seem to remember Popular Science doing a thing on a single gun color tube back in the 70's......... Anyone ever seen it? After reading the Wikipedia page I think the one in PS was the Advanced Apple tube with the photomultiplier.

Sandy G
07-02-2010, 09:46 AM
I think it was a "Turkey" not so much because the concept wasn't sound, but because of Sony's up-til-then uncharactaristic poor execution...Wasn't it about that time that Sony's quality started slipping badly ?

andy
07-02-2010, 11:13 AM
I think it was a "Turkey" not so much because the concept wasn't sound, but because of Sony's up-til-then uncharactaristic poor execution...Wasn't it about that time that Sony's quality started slipping badly ?

It really wasn't Sony's fault. It was a good design, and used top quality capacitors, which turned out to be defective. Apart from the caps, I don't think I've seen anything else go wrong with one. The demise of the Indextron as a concept was mostly due to the rise of LCDs for hand held TVs.

jr_tech
07-02-2010, 01:56 PM
The demise of the Indextron as a concept was mostly due to the rise of LCDs for hand held TVs.

It would appear that the concept could have been applied to the "lollipop" tube design that was used in the small "Watchman" series... Perhaps the only way that color might be obtained in such a CRT design. What might have been! :scratch2:
jr

andy
07-02-2010, 05:06 PM
It would appear that the concept could have been applied to the "lollipop" tube design that was used in the small "Watchman" series... Perhaps the only way that color might be obtained in such a CRT design. What might have been! :scratch2:
jr

I read somewhere that such a CRT was built, but it was never used in a TV. I'd love to know if it was true. The tough part would be achieving the near perfect linearity, and razor sharp focus needed to make it work.

crtfool
07-02-2010, 05:15 PM
Jerome Halphen said that Sanyo made a small TV with this type of tube, and I am certain that I did see a small 3" Sanyo TV in a pink case on a pedestal for sale on eBay a few years ago. I did not know about the Beam Index technology tubes at that time, and did not pay too much attention to that set because it was a Sanyo - I have never been a fan of Sanyo products. I really hope that 1 of these sets surfaces again just to prove that Jerome and I are not crazy!

From Wikipedia:

Sanyo used the bright images to make a new style of tube they called the "lollipop".[12] It used an electron gun arranged at right angles to the display, extending down instead of to the rear. The result was a 3 inch display only 1 inches deep, although it was several inches long. They demonstrated the system in a small television similar to the Sony Indextron.

Reference 12: David Lachenbruch, "super-TVs", Popular Science, July 1985, pg. 66 ("Apples and lollipops)

http://books.google.com/books?id=lQAAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA66&dq=indextron#v=onepage&q=indextron&f=false

Sandy G
07-02-2010, 05:29 PM
I have 2 of them Sanyo sets, & as far as I know, they have conventional CRTs...One of mine is Pepto-Bismol pink, the other is ivory...IIRC, they also made 'em in silver & black. Cute l'il fellers-One of mine needs new caps/attention in the horizontal section...They DO have v. good pictures when working properly.

crtfool
07-02-2010, 05:33 PM
Sandy G - Can you please post a picture of the set. I do remember exactly what it looks like. I can't be sure it was a Beam Index - Jerome believes it is, and that the model number is 30-CTV1

jr_tech
07-02-2010, 05:37 PM
I have 2 of them Sanyo sets, & as far as I know, they have conventional CRTs...One of mine is Pepto-Bismol pink, the other is ivory...IIRC, they also made 'em in silver & black. Cute l'il fellers-One of mine needs new caps/attention in the horizontal section...They DO have v. good pictures when working properly.

Are you perhaps thinking of the Sharp?... Phil restored one here:

http://www.antiqueradio.org/Sharp3LS36.htm

I just got one in ivory.:yes:
jr

crtfool
07-02-2010, 05:40 PM
jr tech - I did see that model Sharp on eBay several times, and I do know that it is not a Beam Index - but, I also did see a similar Sanyo with a completely different pedestal.

jr_tech
07-02-2010, 05:48 PM
jr tech - I did see that model Sharp on eBay several times, and I do know that it is not a Beam Index - but, I also did see a similar Sanyo with a completely different pedestal.

Cool! Did you once indicate that several viewfinder CRTs were beam index? I assume that these were not lollipop designs, however.
jr

crtfool
07-02-2010, 05:56 PM
jr tech - Yes, the color CRT viewfinders on the old RCA cameras were Beam Index with a Hitachi made tube - standard CRT configuration, not lollipop design.

Also, here is a link to the Popular Science article that I referenced in an earlier post:

http://books.google.com/books?id=lQAAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA66&dq=indextron#v=onepage&q=indextron&f=false

You have to scroll up to see the TV and lollipop tube - I have NEVER seen this set.

Sandy G
07-02-2010, 09:48 PM
Duh-Call me Stoopid...Mine are the SHARP 3LS36s as indicated...Nevermind...

jr_tech
07-02-2010, 10:01 PM
Well, I got confused also, so don't feel bad! I got out my ivory one, turned it on and was convinced that it was a shadow mask tube, and was about to post that the Sanyo had a shadow mask, when I realized the TV might have said Sharp on the base... so I grabbed it again... yup, Sharp!:o
jr

Username1
07-03-2010, 07:15 AM
"From Sharp minds come Sharp products..."

etype2
07-03-2010, 08:43 PM
Hi all,

The Sanyo index tube never made it to market. Only shown as a prototype.

Jerome, Thank you very much for the Indextron Service Manuel and other items. Much appreciated!

I won the auction for the white Indextron. You can see it at my website. Just scroll down .... and you access my entire collection pages 1 to 5 on same site in drop down menu tabs. http://www.visions4.net/journal/test/page-two-b/page-six-2/page-three-a/

crtfool
07-03-2010, 09:21 PM
etype2 - Very NICE collection!

You probably broke Jerome's heart with the news about the Sanyo Index Tube. Here is a quote that was posted in another thread by Jerome Halphin:

"Last but not least, Sanyo sold a very limited quantity of the 30-CTV1 4" Beam-Index color TV in the US, 1986. Saw one in the LA area in a pink case, had spent all my $ on a CT-101 and couldn't buy it. Gone forever!"

I know that I saw a set that fits this description on eBay a few years ago - it looked a lot like the Sharp TV referenced above, but with a completely different pedestal. It had a standard style CRT configuration, but I do not know if it was Beam Index. Do you have any knowledge of this set?

etype2
07-03-2010, 10:40 PM
Hi Sandy G. Scue me if not up to speed with how this forum works. First off, THANK YOU! Safari: Genius. Sony KV 4000: One of my all time favorites. Panasonic CT 101: Wanted to buy in the day, couldn't afford one. It's amazing, even today. Thanks again, Sandy G.!


Send New Private Message

jr_tech
07-03-2010, 10:44 PM
etype2:
Congratulations on winning the Indextron! :banana::banana::banana:
And thanks for the link to your wonderful website...GREAT collection!!! :yes:
jr

Sandy G
07-03-2010, 11:13 PM
Hi Sandy G. Scue me if not up to speed with how this forum works. First off, THANK YOU! Safari: Genius. Sony KV 4000: One of my all time favorites. Panasonic CT 101: Wanted to buy in the day, couldn't afford one. It's amazing, even today. Thanks again, Sandy G.!


Send New Private Message

Oh, yeah, also have the CT-101's bigger bro-a CT-3311-a 2.75" screen. Think they're supposedly even rarer than a CT-101-Who wants the SECOND smallest color set ever made, after all ?...Then there's the Toshiba CE035, a 3" color set, AM/FM, & detachable micro-cassette called a "Walky", from '83. Only seen one or 2 others like it on Da Bay...And a couple of GE 4CM3326X, a 4" color set-AM-FM-detachable microcassette stereo Box De Bume' from '82...It's amazing to me how much DEVELOPMENT time & money must have been put into these marvels of the Eighties-And I doubt their manufacturers made a dime offa 'em. Then there was the JVC CX-500US, a 4.5" color set/AM/FM/std cassette from '82...Seen it-Used examples- sold under several brand names. These puppies were all Muy Expensivo, I don't remember ever seeing ANY of 'em in a store, I special-ordered my CT-101 in '84, & got "Fish-eyes" shot my way over it. I also don't think any of 'em were on the market for any great length of time, I THINK I remember seeing the 4" GE advertised over a period of a year or 2, but that's it. These little "CRT" guys really weren't ever given a fair chance...And then unceremoniously shown the door when the color "Pocket sets" came out a few years later...

etype2
07-03-2010, 11:55 PM
jr tech,

Thank you. Have to say, it was Jerome who alerted me to the auction. I probably would have missed it.

etype2
07-03-2010, 11:58 PM
crtfool,

THANK YOU. "30-CTV1 4" Beam-Index color TV in the US, 1986" You got me going. If found, would be rarest of the rarest! :-)

Edit: Do you mean this one? http://www.ericwrobbel.com/books/rom0609.htm

If the Sanyo prototype made it to market, I think it would have been designed much like the Sony Watchman flat TV's of that period. The prototype shown was much like this, with the gun inline and below the screen.

Here is a photo of the Sanyo beam index tube prototype: http://books.google.com/books?id=lQAAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=sanyo+indextron+tv&source=bl&ots=jesTBEVN-l&sig=6PPp-SYop6uHWC4klKZcW3bPVgA&hl=en&ei=GjEwTK6xH4n_nAfE6IGHBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=sanyo%20indextron%20tv&f=false

crtfool
07-04-2010, 03:02 PM
etype2 - The link you gave is for the Sharp - I have seen that 1 several times. The TV that I saw a few years ago - before I knew about AK / VK, before I knew Jerome, and before I knew about Beam Index - definitely was a Sanyo, it definitely was pink, and the pedestal was like a bent boomerang with no electronics in it. I do not know the model number, or if it was even a Beam Index - according to Jerome's description, it could be the TV that he was looking for. This definitely is a mystery that needs to be solved!

etype2
07-04-2010, 03:24 PM
crtfool,

I searched Sanyo Electric Global website- History- Time line 1980's, found no announcement of a beam index tube. Very curious, I will continue search.

jr_tech
07-04-2010, 04:07 PM
When I first saw the Popular Science article about the Sanyo color lollipop prototype, I was quite skeptical, thinking that the picture showed the common Sony 04JM monochrome lollipop CRT.
Looking more closely, it appears that the gun on the Sanyo is larger, the tube is thicker and the deflection angle may be less than the Sony (picture 2). I guess that I am more or less convinced that the tube in the article was unique. :scratch2:
jr

etype2
07-04-2010, 10:01 PM
I have no doubt that the reporter who went to that electronic show in Japan, 1985 as reported in the Popular Science article, actually saw a working prototype of the Sanyo beam index prototype. The reporter interviewed Sanyo representatives.

If it went to market as promised in 1986 or later, there should be a paper trail evidencing this.

That is why I'm intrigued by Jerome's sighting. I want it to exist.

crtfool
07-04-2010, 10:06 PM
That is why I'm intrigued by Jerome's sighting. I want it to exist.

So do I! And, If 1 ever does come up on eBay, I really hope that Jerome gets it because it is HIS Holy Grail.

Anyway, thanks for all your effort and research.

etype2
07-04-2010, 10:59 PM
You are very welcome, crtfool.

And thank you to the members for your comments and Jerome for your help.

Time for me to bow out. :-)

jhalphen
07-05-2010, 07:29 PM
Hello Gentlemen,

Interesting thread!

Here's an article from Popular Science Nov 1986 titled "Pocket TV Survey" where the Sanyo is mentioned.

It's only a TV, but chasing an elusive item is in a way more fun that actually owning it.

Story: the Popular Science article mentions the name of the Sanyo product manager at the time the TV was introduced to market (Chuck Davis). Two years ago, i managed to locate the guy in his current job, called him up & tried to learn some useful data on the product. Well, 24 years later, he didn't remember much but gave me a contact at Sanyo HQ japan of an American working as Coordinator, Global PR Relations (Aaron S. Fowles).

I made contact. Mr Fowles searched the Sanyo Museum at the Tokyo HQ and reported that there was no trace whatsoever of the 30-CTV1. End of trail (for now).

Years before (2000-2004) i queried all Sanyo US locations: Compton, Calif Main office & Sales), Forrest City, Arkansas, the former US factory and now TV spares. Results: nada. One old timer on the factory floor vaguely remembered the 30-CTV1 but it was never assembled in America.

I watch Yahoo! Japan from time to time. From our contact in Tokyo "TV Doctor" this model was never sold on the Japanese domestic market - because of high price maybe, Popular Science quotes the TV as having a US $500.00 recommended retail price, quite a sum in 1986.

Other micro-TV related items:
- the pretty incredible A04-JGM09X 1.5" color CRT used in the CT-101
- 2 x screen closeups of the CT-101

Although not a micro-TV, i acquired recently a Sony XEL-1 OLED screen, will soon post pictures on PhotoBucket.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

jhalphen
07-05-2010, 08:21 PM
Hi Again,

To further the topic of the beam-index micro-crts, here are some pictures given to me in 2004, courtesy of Charles Osborne (thanks!) who sometimes posts here.

The CRT is a Hitachi H-6289 single-beam "Indextron" CRT and at 1.5" screen diagonal it is truely a technology wonder.

Hitachi developped the CRT to bring color viewfinders to cameras and camcorders at a time when shadow-mask CRTs were deemed too dim and power-hungry to be acceptable in equipment running off batteries.

The "Wizard of Oz" pictures is courtesy of John Folsom Jr, Thanks! John.

The last document is from RCA cameras CC-030 and CKC-021 Theory of Operation section in the services manuals and describes the screen structure of the H6289 CRT.

One nuisance about repackaging the color viewfinders for use as micro-NTSC monitors is that there are 2 photocells for the indexing system, one sensitive to UV and the other to green (aside from the Green phosphor there is also a Green Index Phosphor) and both must face the screen and be shielded from outside light or the index sync goes haywire and the screen reverts to monochrome.

Another info learned from experience with these viewfinders is that obtained a constantly correct Red is near impossible. Depending on color content, Reds vary from having a purple tone to a dull brown, so flesh tones remind the user of the early days of NTSC - "stop twidling that Tint control!"

This is not the H6289's fault, i suspect some cost-cutting was done in the complex matrix processing required to produce the RGB/Y signals to keep component count and cost acceptable.

OT:
The Sharp 3.5" 3LS36 TV mentioned in this thread (sold in pink, black, white) uses an ordinary shadow-mask color CRT, a 100HB22.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

crtfool
07-05-2010, 08:39 PM
Jerome - How did he get a color picture on the bare tube in the third photo without the photocells?

jr_tech
07-05-2010, 09:29 PM
OT:
The Sharp 3.5" 3LS36 TV mentioned in this thread (sold in pink, black, white) uses an ordinary shadow-mask color CRT, a 100HB22.


More OT:
I notice one of these on the 'Bay for about $300 BIN... Is that nutz or about what these little pink ones go for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sharp-3LS36-P-3-Miniature-Color-TV-Very-Rare-EXCLNT-/330448384056?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4cf0423038
I am not affiliated with this auction,
jr

Sandy G
07-06-2010, 10:24 AM
More OT:
I notice one of these on the 'Bay for about $300 BIN... Is that nutz or about what these little pink ones go for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Sharp-3LS36-P-3-Miniature-Color-TV-Very-Rare-EXCLNT-/330448384056?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item4cf0423038
I am not affiliated with this auction,
jr

Think I gave $50 or so for mine-But that was prolly 10 yrs ago. Think I gave $40 for the white one a year or 2 later. IIRC, I was either only bidder,or one of a handful of bidders on either one...Seems like for some reason, more pink ones have surfaced...Only seen one-I THINK-of the silver ones & maybe a couple black ones...Think I may have seen a couple of the ivory ones besides mine. Never did see one "In captivity" back in the day for sale that I can remember.

jhalphen
07-06-2010, 10:51 AM
Hi to All,

For CRTFool, the photocells are there alright, it CAN't work without!

see this brighter pix with the photocells layed out in front of the screen.

The room was also darkened.

When the viewfinder's case is open, there is a small polished steel mirror at the top of the case, above the CRT. I suppose it's there to reflect the light down towards the photocells as synching the beam position with the RGB sequence is particularly important at the start & end of the TV field.

When you view a Sony Indextron CRT out from the chassis, there is a different appearance phosphor at the top of the CRT and on the left side, running continually from top to bottom.

From Andy's photo (Thanks! Andy) this is a "run-in" area reserved for sync before the active frame begins. The beam is also re-synched at each line start.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

crtfool
07-06-2010, 03:02 PM
Thanks Jerome - I knew it could not work without the photocells, but I did not see them in the picture, and I did not realize that the black think in the lower right corner was the photocell unit. I do know about the small mirror on top of the enclosed viewfinder assembly.

rpm1200
07-06-2010, 03:06 PM
...GE 4CM3326X, a 4" color set-AM-FM-detachable microcassette stereo Box De Bume' from '82...
I have one of these! Found it on the curb in Flint, MI sans top cover. I needed to resolder the dc input jack, otherwise it's ok, great picture. The microcassette deck probably needs some work at this point.

crtfool
07-19-2010, 08:24 PM
Hi everyone,

I am very happy to announce that I have just acquired a WORKING Indextron in very good condition. This will be the bookend twin to the Indextron that I acquired last year that does not power on due to the fact that the main circuit board has a few damaged traces from 2 capacitors that leaked way back when. I do intend to repair this set, and do a complete recap job on both sets, when I can set aside some quality time to devote my complete attention to the job.

I decided to power up the set because the seller said that he was watching a movie on it just prior to posting it for sale, so if any damage was done, it would have been done at that time. The picture is excellent - I have posted some screen shots, but I had trouble getting nice clear pictures.

I am not going to use the set anymore until I can open it up to see if there are any issues with the capacitors, but there is no ammonia or capacitor oil smell coming out of the vents.

I also think that I am going to replace the old style transformer power supplies with new style switching power supplies like the ones used for LCD monitors because it will give the set cleaner power.

I also would like to thank Jerome Halphen for all his help - very much appreciated!

Sandy G
07-19-2010, 09:17 PM
You need to sell/give/let me "borrow" the one that don't work...(grin)

jr_tech
07-19-2010, 09:45 PM
Nice score! :banana::banana::banana::banana:
These are really cute little sets! :thmbsp:
jr

crtfool
07-19-2010, 10:02 PM
Sandy G - Me thinks not.

jr tech - Thanks. Did you get your viewfinder?

jr_tech
07-19-2010, 10:28 PM
Sandy G - Me thinks not.

jr tech - Thanks. Did you get your viewfinder?

Hasn't arrived yet... I think that it shipped parcel post... hope to see it soon.
jr

jr_tech
07-27-2010, 11:54 PM
Sandy G - Me thinks not.

jr tech - Thanks. Did you get your viewfinder?

YES! Thanks to a "heads up" from crtfool, I have a beam index color CRT for my collection. It is from a viewfinder to a RCA CKC021 color camera that was sold (cheap) on eBay. The camera went to Goodwill, but the viewfinder is working fine on my bench.:yes:
After applying 12V and a video signal, it produced a fairly decent picture...not bad for a color CRT with a face the size of a postage stamp! (about 1.5" diag.)
It is difficult to photograph with a simple camera, but here are the best so far.
Interesting CRT, I will disassemble (the housing) and take pictures of the gun structure and yoke later.
jr

Sandy G
07-28-2010, 07:22 AM
Yeah-My Panasonic CT-101 has a very good pic on it, & its only 1.5" too...But I think they had a std, albeit very small, CRT design. I ordered that Bad Boi out special from the local hdware store in '84-Boy, did I get the Fish Eye..."Why do you want that tiny little thing ?!? For $350, I could gitchoo a TOTL 19" set...Maybe even a 23"...." Philistines....(grin)

jr_tech
07-28-2010, 02:26 PM
Some more pix of the tiny beam index color CRT (Hitachi H6289) used in the RCA CKC021 viewfinder.
The actual screen size measures about 1.3" diag. The CRT is about 5.3" long. Two mirrors are contained in the assembly... the first at 45 degrees in front of the tube to direct the image to the viewer, and another above the tube (seen in the top part of the shell) to direct more light to the 2 indexing photocells (seen in the bottom of the case, below the mirror).
I assume that the small metal box behind the mirror contains an amplifier for the photocell signal.
jr

freakaftr8
07-28-2010, 02:56 PM
That is really cool!

crtfool
07-28-2010, 03:33 PM
Hi jr - glad to see that you got the viewfinder, and that it is in good working order. They are definitely fun to play with - there are several adjustments on the boards to adjust the picture quality, just like a real TV. You are correct in your assumption that the box behind the mirror is for the photocells.

"Reason: add "(the housing)", I am not taking the tube apart!" - When I was young, I used to literally "take apart" picture tubes to see what was inside, and how the gun worked. I never did find the lens and prism that they always showed in the diagrams of how the picture tubes worked - very disappointing, but then I had no clue that they meant "ELECTRONIC" lenses and prisms - not physical ones - what did I know - I was STUPID enough to bust open picture tubes then! I even handed in an electron gun from a very old B&W CRT with my report on CCTV for my Mass Media class in high school - got an A because of it.

Have fun with your toy!

jr_tech
07-28-2010, 09:29 PM
"Reason: add "(the housing)", I am not taking the tube apart!" - When I was young, I used to literally "take apart" picture tubes to see what was inside, and how the gun worked. I never did find the lens and prism that they always showed in the diagrams of how the picture tubes worked - very disappointing, but then I had no clue that they meant "ELECTRONIC" lenses and prisms - not physical ones - what did I know - I was STUPID enough to bust open picture tubes then! I even handed in an electron gun from a very old B&W CRT with my report on CCTV for my Mass Media class in high school - got an A because of it.

Have fun with your toy!

Indeed, I did not want to give the impression that I was going to take the CRT apart... although I would love to find out what sort of design they used for the heater... low power Sony CRTs use a directly heated cathode which consumes only 1/4 watt (180mW on some models). I suspect that the engineers at Hitachi might have come up with a similar low power heater/cathode assembly, since the whole idea of using the beam index CRT in the first place, was to save power.

You handed in an electron gun? man, I am surprised that you did not get kicked out of school for bringing in a gun.:D

I am indeed having fun with this little monitor assembly... tonight I may rig it up as a crude projector, to project a dim image on the bedroom ceiling! Years ago, I used the Panasonic TR-1010 and a 50mm F1.4 Nikkor lens to produce a fairly respectable image for late night viewing*. :yes:

* I had to reverse the yoke leads to get the picture correct...I was concerned about doing this with the beam index tube (bet that would really mess up the color), but since it is normally viewed through a mirror, the scan is already reversed.
jr

crtfool
07-28-2010, 09:34 PM
"You handed in an electron gun? man, I am surprised that you did not get kicked out of school for bringing in a gun." - HEY, it was the 70's - the criminals didn't bring guns, they carried knives!

jhalphen
07-29-2010, 01:59 AM
Hi JrTech,

Welcome! to the "Mini-Beam Index Club", other members already include John FolsomJr, myself, and a few others.

If you want it, i have scanned the service data for the RCA CKC-021 Beam-Index VF sub-assembly - includes schematics and alignment data.

Just holler if you & others want it - give Mail address please, too big to post direct on VK.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

etype2
07-30-2010, 06:17 PM
Congratulations crtfool on acquiring your Sony Indextron!

Post more pics please, I'd love to see them. :-)

crtfool
07-30-2010, 06:53 PM
Thanks etype2 - I have not turned it on again since I received because I want to look inside to see the condition of the capacitors, etc. Hopefully I will get to it soon, and if everything looks good, then I will try and take more pictures. How are things going with your Indextron?

etype2
07-31-2010, 06:21 PM
Should have it up and running soon. I'm having a professional work on it. I will post some photos and details.

crtfool
07-31-2010, 08:42 PM
Great - looking forward to seeing it in operation. I know that all these surviving Indextrons must be recapped, but it would be great if there are any out there that can stay factory virgin! I would think it would be worth more that one that has been opened and altered.

OT - I sent you a PM.

crtfool
08-02-2010, 05:26 PM
Here is a major heads-up for any VIDIMAGIC INDEXTRON fans - it looks really nice!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sony-Vidimagic-FP-60-Indextron-Betamax-Projector-Beta-/260644909217?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cafa5b0a1

I am not affiliated with this auction.

jr_tech
08-02-2010, 05:59 PM
Thanks! I suspect that I will follow this closely and throw in a bid, if things don't get too crazy! :thmbsp:
jr

crtfool
08-02-2010, 06:31 PM
jr - Go for it, I am not going to bid - not really my thing, and also low on funds for toys at this time - I never know when a MUST have item will along.

jr_tech
08-12-2010, 03:51 PM
jr - Go for it, I am not going to bid - not really my thing, and also low on funds for toys at this time - I never know when a MUST have item will along.

:banana::banana::banana:
Won it! thanks for the tip!
jr

jhalphen
08-12-2010, 04:18 PM
Hey! Well Done!

Now start hunting for a high gain metal or glass-beaded screen to really make it a pleasure to watch - Think Advent projector screen for instance,

others will surely chime in with other/more modern solutions.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

crtfool
08-12-2010, 04:21 PM
jr - GREAT, glad you got it! I watched the auction end, surprised that there was only 1 bid - better for you!

Sandy G
08-12-2010, 05:01 PM
Has'n Fras'n dirty Ras'n...Ahh HATE Yew....(Best Yosemite Sam imitation here) Seriously, GREAT score ! Glad to see it went to one of us !

Dave A
08-12-2010, 10:21 PM
Ok, lets keep this going.

I have one of the non-beta versions and will never do anything with it. Had it two or three years and forget if it even tries to work. The first one to PM me (via a reply here to determine first place) AND willing to pick it up at Kutztown in September gets it free.

I do not want to try to pack it for shipping. Pickup at Kutztown only. My little Indextron is enough for me. Get your pony-express going.

jr_tech
08-18-2010, 11:47 PM
Well, I heard a pretty loud thump on the front porch today as the perspiring UPS man dropped off a 54 pound package... Wow! this is much bigger than I expected, I was thinking that it was not likely much larger than a Sony KV-5200 with the addition of a lens on the front and Beta deck on the back! The projector measures about 9"x9"x26" and must weigh about 40 lbs!
Without even giving it a second thought, after it was un-boxed, I plugged it in, hooked up a DVD player, and started watching a video projected (dimly) on the wall. :yes:
Perhaps I should have been more cautious and brought it up with a Variac, but it is playing fine! What a cool application of the technology of 1984.
I took a picture of the image projected on the wall (about 5.5 ft diagonal, 16:9 aspect) and you can see that it is fairly low resolution and the color stripes show up... Pix 1
If you "look down the lens" it looks like Pix 2 (except it is upside-down)
Great fun!
jr

PS: I suspect that the performance is similar to the tiny Pico Pocket projector... Pix 3

Sandy G
08-19-2010, 07:57 AM
Anytime I read stories about this, or the CT-100, or any other kinds of long-ago exotica, I'm reminded of the scene in the FIRST "Star Wars" when Obi-Wan introduces Luke to the light saber..How it was an elegant weapon from a different age...That sentiment kinda sums up why I collect this stuff...I think of what our merry band of Mad Monks here cherish, Indextrons, CT-100s, 621TS, CTC-7s, etc, & then I stroll thru the local Screaming Yellow Zonker-style TV emporium w/all the cheap & nasty DLPs, LCDs, DVDs & hang my head in shame...

jhalphen
08-19-2010, 09:16 AM
Hi Sandy,

I think that we love the vintage stuff because we understand how much research, long hours of work and sometimes sheer genius was involved to turn ideas into working products. They were also built as quality products because "last and repair" was the then current philosophy.

Personnally, i wouldn't jeer at what the last 30 years have brought us in terms of electronic marvels: Quantum-dot lasers, LCDs, taking a 150 year old chemical curiosity and turning it into bright colorful pictures, speaking of micro-projectors like the one showed above it uses a LCOS light engine and a 2W LED, what a wonder! and how about CPUs soon reaching the billion transistors per chip.

I have much respect for the people that developped these technologies. However they are let down by deliberate corner-cutting to force throwaway 2 years after purchase. THAT is where the problem resides, the technology is not flawed "per se" only the deliberate choice to produce it with a finite (short) life.

We make Comm' satellites that are sold with a guaranteed 12-15 year lifetime operating 60x 100W transmitters in the harshest environment known to man: Space, and we couldn't build an LCD/OLED/Plasma screen guaranteed to work for 15-20 years...

I bet that in the technologies described above, there will be some Nobel Prizes distributed, today's scientist are just as inventive as their colleagues of yesteryears.

Just my 2 Euro opinion

Best Regards

jhalphen

Sandy G
08-19-2010, 04:23 PM
You're right, Jerome, I just get dismayed by all the "Cheap 'n' Nasty" stuff that seems to be the rule nowadays...A TV nowadays is an ugly grey-black plastic rectangle that displays pretty pictures for 2-3 years, dies, & then you have to go get another one...

jr_tech
08-19-2010, 05:07 PM
In my excitement over receiving the Vidimagic projector, I neglected to post any pix of the actual unit. Here are a couple of shots of the unit set up in my "radio shack".
The "stand" at the front of the unit refuses to lock, so two of my favorite books, which are always at hand, "The Sony Vision" by Lyons and "The Cathode Ray Tube" by Keller are being used to prop it up. :yes:

jr

crtfool
08-19-2010, 05:11 PM
Geez - that thing is bigger than I thought! Nice images and good color reproduction.

So, when do we get to see pictures of the inside?

OT - I WANT a pico pocket projector - for me it will be totally useless, but it is COOL!

Sandy G
08-19-2010, 06:17 PM
Dah-Yum, but that thing looks like the Eevil Dr Whoziwhatzit's Menacing Death Ray...Or at least could easily be turned into one for a homemade Sci-Fi flick....Damn, I need to get off this friggin' computer more often, don't I ?!? But I'd take it in a heartbeat...Eeevil death-ray machine or not...(grin)

Dinkar
08-20-2010, 01:32 AM
Where you can download RCA CKC021 service manuals or schematics?
thks.

jhalphen
08-20-2010, 08:11 AM
Hi Dinkar,

what is your interest, the camera or the color viewfinder?

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

Dinkar
08-20-2010, 08:46 AM
Hi jhalphen,

I have the color viewfinder, but only the PCB board and the CRT etc., no More information, so you can help give me copies of service manuals or schematics?

Best Regards

Dinkar
Fujian/China

http://bbs.leowood.net/incomefiles/20108/202049551265.JPG
http://bbs.leowood.net/incomefiles/20108/202049197273.JPG

rca2000
08-20-2010, 04:39 PM
Where you can download RCA CKC021 service manuals or schematics?
thks.

I too, would like the manual too--particularly for the color EVF's.
I have TWO of the color VF cameras. One must be an EARLY production...as it has three boards, two stacked on each other and opne below. The other one I do not know about--I never took it apart. I ALSO have a "vidimagic" projo, it is the one with the beta VCR. It "kinda works", sometimes it would go off on its own, the last time I lit it off, maybe 7 years or so ago. It is in the basement here--climate--controlled year around.

jhalphen
08-20-2010, 06:08 PM
Dinkar, RCA2000,

Your E-Mail adresses please.

I have scanned all the color VF data for the CKC-021 RCA camera (the 2 board version) and the CC-030 earlier RCA color VF (the 3 board version).

I have not scanned, and will not do the camera itself. It's around 100 pages with tens of meter-wide fold out schematics. The color viewfinders are great fun to use as micro-monitors, but the cameras themselves are totally outdated.

Dinkar, you're in China. Think you could find me a Hitachi HA-11759 IC? it's the color processor in the CC-030 beam-index board and i have a defective VF where the IC seriously heats up. Have been fruitlessly searching for this chip over the last 2 years.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

Dinkar
08-21-2010, 06:29 AM
jhalphen


Thanks a lot.
My email is dinkar.net (at) gmail.com
OK, I try to find the Hitachi HA-11759, but I can not guarantee to find.

jhalphen
08-21-2010, 08:45 AM
Hi to All,

To Dinkar, will send the CKC-021 color VF data ASAP.

New photo uploads:

The now recapped 1968 Sony KV-7010U operating properly:
http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk239/jhalphen/Screen%20Shots/Sony%20KV-7010U%201968%20First%20Trinitron%20-%207inch/

Some screen shots of the RCA CC-030 Beam-Index color viewfinder. I have a new camera with Macro-Zoom function and at least this one will focus on the tiny 1.5" screen. John FolsomJr still makes the best screen shots, but i am learning...

http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk239/jhalphen/Screen%20Shots/RCA%20CC-030%20Beam-Index%20Color%20VF/

And last, but not least, TRUE SCREEN SHOTS of the Sony XEL-1, the first consumer OLED TV - Remember! you saw it FIRST on VK!

Tech notes:
The European version of the XEL-1 has an all band/all Euro formats analogue & digital reception capabilities, SD & HD.

In analogue: PAL B/G-i-K... & French SECAM L
In digital: DVB-T (Digital Video Broadcasting-Terrestrial)
- MPEG-2 in SD, 625/50
- MPEG-4 in HD, 1080i (OTA in France) & 1080p.

No analogue input available, only 2x HDMI.

The screen being an 11" diagonal 16:9 format, it does not have full 1920 x1080 resolution but a native resolution of 960 x 540 pixels. Still, subjectively, the resolution, contrast, color, dynamic range and total absence of angular directivity is absolutely jaw-dropping.

The pictures are genuine unretouched photos, other than resizing to 800x600 from the original 4000x3000 shots.

OLEDs seem to be way to the future - i just hope the blue phosphor holds up in time, short blue life is/was the plague of early OLED technology.

http://s281.photobucket.com/albums/kk239/jhalphen/Screen%20Shots/Sony%20XEL-1%20OLED%20TV/

Best Regards

jhalphen
Paris/France

rca2000
08-21-2010, 01:22 PM
My email..

Jsouth1@cinci.rr.com

Thanks for the schematics of the VF. I suppose I do not need those of the camera either. One of mine IS a CC-030 for sure---the other I think is newer. I mainly want the VF stuff.

Dinkar
08-23-2010, 11:12 PM
jhalphen,

Thank you for your service manual, now it worked, but some small problems, it is B-W, no color.

Sandy G
08-23-2010, 11:25 PM
Well, at least you know its a good CRT...Shouldn't be too much wrong w/it...The color looks like its TRYING to work...

jr_tech
08-24-2010, 12:02 AM
jhalphen,

Thank you for your service manual, now it worked, but some small problems, it is B-W, no color.

The photocell assembly needs to be fairly close to the front of the CRT to pick up the information from the index stripes... also, room light can interfere with the indexing function. Did you try to operate it in a fairly dark room?
jr

Dinkar
08-24-2010, 12:51 AM
I have tried in fairly dark room, off light, as is the B-W.

Dinkar
08-24-2010, 05:41 AM
http://www.myvintagetv.com/philco_apple_tube.htm

For more information on The Philco Apple CRT

rca2000
08-24-2010, 05:08 PM
I have tried in fairly dark room, off light, as is the B-W.

It has been a few years since I "played" with my VF...but I am SURE that if the photocells are NOT positioned correctly in front of the screen you will not have color. I recall that if ONE of the cells was covered--you would get a "weird" picture, with "confetti" all through it or such--and if BOTH cells were blocked--the color was gone and a "somewhat " BW picture was the result.

That color VF was a -neat idea...fun to play with... but it is NOT really practical to use out of the case--since the index stripes are picked up on the OUTSIDE of the tube--and ANY external light will "mess things up". On the Sony vidimagic, the index info is picked up on the REAR of the tube and from a DIFFERENT phospor--that glows a bright green--from the rear of the screen!!

Dinkar
08-25-2010, 07:19 AM
It has been a few years since I "played" with my VF...but I am SURE that if the photocells are NOT positioned correctly in front of the screen you will not have color. I recall that if ONE of the cells was covered--you would get a "weird" picture, with "confetti" all through it or such--and if BOTH cells were blocked--the color was gone and a "somewhat " BW picture was the result.

That color VF was a -neat idea...fun to play with... but it is NOT really practical to use out of the case--since the index stripes are picked up on the OUTSIDE of the tube--and ANY external light will "mess things up". On the Sony vidimagic, the index info is picked up on the REAR of the tube and from a DIFFERENT phospor--that glows a bright green--from the rear of the screen!!

Yes, but try to move the photocells of the position, tested many times, no change is not the same color

jr_tech
09-01-2010, 03:36 PM
Geez - that thing is bigger than I thought! Nice images and good color reproduction.

So, when do we get to see pictures of the inside?



Well, I thought that I might have to take it apart if the Beta deck did not work, but I finally got a Beta tape (*Dire Straits "Alchemy" concert from 1983), popped it in and it ran fine :music:, so the projector likely will not be coming apart for awhile. Here is a link to some excellent pictures of the insides of a Vidimagic, posted earlier on this site:
http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=248120
jr

*What a "blast from the past" we really enjoyed watching this concert last night on the Vidimagic. This video has been long out of print, I felt that I was very lucky to find a copy. This morning, I discovered that as of June of this year the video has been available in the US on DVD and BluRay. Of course, I ordered a copy.:yes:

andy
09-01-2010, 07:48 PM
Mechanically, the VCR appears almost identical to the SL-2000 portable. If anyone ever needs parts for the VCR in one of these projectors, it shouldn't be too hard to find an SL-2000. It's all direct drive, so it should be very reliable, but parts can get broken.

crtfool
09-01-2010, 08:22 PM
jr - You're NO fun, but I DO understand why you don't want to take it apart! I have gotten much better at fighting the desire to take everything I get apart, which was not the case in my younger days. Now I only take things apart if they were acquired for that specific purpose, or if I absolute have to because it needs to be repaired.

I don't know how I missed the photos in Eckhard's posting! The Indextron tube looks a lot larger than the 1 in the Watchcube TV. Very interesting unit.

etype2
12-16-2010, 12:56 PM
Good day to all,

I finally have my Sony KVX Indextron in good working order. Andy Cuffe worked on it, big thank you to Andy.

There is a description of the repair and screen shots on my website if your interested. Just scroll down to the bottom.

The link: http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/indextron/

Scott_Est
09-20-2013, 10:52 PM
I have scanned all the color VF data for the CKC-021 RCA camera (the 2 board version) and the CC-030 earlier RCA color VF (the 3 board version).

Hi

This is my first post here on Videokarma. I found Videokarma.org last year, when searched information about RCA vintage video camera view finder model CKC021 which I bought from USA.

My plan is, after hopefully getting a circuit schematic, convert this viewfinder's colour block from NTSC to PAL, because here in Europe is no NTSC signal present, all is digital using PAL parameters (576 lines). Additional converter (PAL to NTSC) will worsen the signal quality significantly, I already tried it. Secondly, all IC's are covered with thick black paint, so reverse engineering is also tricky. And Philco Indextron system is almost unknown here, no specific info about it.

There are no schematics for that in Internet. So that is the reason why I registered to Videokarma with hope, that fellow member Jhalphen still has a copy of it.

After that I planned to build wooden casing resembling old 1940-50 era TV set around this viewfinder, of course it will be very miniature size.

Best regards
Scott

etype2
09-22-2013, 10:38 AM
Hi

This is my first post here on Videokarma. I found Videokarma.org last year, when searched information about RCA vintage video camera view finder model CKC021 which I bought from USA.

My plan is, after hopefully getting a circuit schematic, convert this viewfinder's colour block from NTSC to PAL, because here in Europe is no NTSC signal present, all is digital using PAL parameters (576 lines). Additional converter (PAL to NTSC) will worsen the signal quality significantly, I already tried it. Secondly, all IC's are covered with thick black paint, so reverse engineering is also tricky. And Philco Indextron system is almost unknown here, no specific info about it.

There are no schematics for that in Internet. So that is the reason why I registered to Videokarma with hope, that fellow member Jhalphen still has a copy of it.

After that I planned to build wooden casing resembling old 1940-50 era TV set around this viewfinder, of course it will be very miniature size.

Best regards
Scott

Welcome to VK Scott,

I have those files you are looking for, Jerome was very generous to send them to me. I will wait for Jerome to respond to your request, but if he dose not see this, I can send to you.

Sounds like an interesting project if you can pull it off.

Best regards,

Marshall

jhalphen
09-23-2013, 08:25 AM
Hello Scott,

Of course i still have the files, backed-up several times. When you spend many hours doing Scans, you don't want to loose them!

Give me your Mail address by MP + max inbox file size and i will send you everything concerning the CKC-021 color viewfinder.

I don't think your planned conversion will work. The electron beam scanning speed is linked to the phosphor strip width and pitch. This is optimized for 3.58 MHz NTSC subcarrier. A tube for PAL would require a different strip pitch to coincide with the PAL subcarrier at 4.43 MHz.

see the illustration here, bottom of page 3 of this thread:

http://videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=167623&d=1278374924

Secondly, the viewfinder contains several highly specialized analogue ICs which Hitachi developed for the color VF. A PAL version would require duplicating the IC's internal circuitry with discrete transistors and each IC probably has over 100 transistors on the chip.
BTW, these ICs are unfindable. I need a HM11759 Color Processor chip and have tried for several years with no success.

Finally, i do not agree about your comment concerning PAL to NTSC converters. I have several units purchased at around 150 Euros which truly convert 525/60/3.58 to 625/50/4.443 and they work fine.
Think about it: the resolution of a 1.5" color CRT is pretty weak anyway, it's not a 25" CRT or bigger size flat screen.
Mine have a 6Mb interpolation memory (reduces judder in horizontal camera pans).

I would keep the VF as is and convert composite PAL to NTSC.
Been there, done that and quite pleased with the results.

Best Regards
jhalphen
Paris/France

PS: @e-type2, thanks! for your offer to help Scott.

Scott_Est
09-23-2013, 04:36 PM
Hello

Thank you for answering. I sent a PM.

I agree with You, this indexing system is much more complicated compared to usual three-beams CRT-s.

I found one schematic for normal size (over 20") screen TV with indexing scan, there are less IC's and more transistors. Color processing and beam syncronisation seems to be two separate blocks, between them was simple RGB signal. If it's same case with viewfinder, then making conversion is not that hard. But that will be known after through analysing of the schematics.

I have experience only with the digital receiver boxes. Besides digital HDMI output, there are option for analog output, either RGBout via Euroconnector, and PAL or NTSC composite format. Well, these "inner" converters are beyond from perfection and really, even on that tiny 1,5" screen picture quality is bad compared to PAL (black&white of course with that viewfinder) signal.

I found at ebay some cameras with color viewfinder, even as cheap as 5 US$, but seller would post only inside USA. I bought mine with 30$, but postage to Europe was twice as that. So I abandoned the camera itself and the seller was kind to send only the vf part to keep postage more reasonable level.

Best Regards

Scott

Jon A.
09-24-2013, 12:43 AM
I found at ebay some cameras with color viewfinder, even as cheap as 5 US$, but seller would post only inside USA. I bought mine with 30$, but postage to Europe was twice as that. So I abandoned the camera itself and the seller was kind to send only the vf part to keep postage more reasonable level.

Yeah, postage between North America and Europe can be a real wallet-killer. Just recently I got a postage quote for a "Black Beauty headlight" (Lucas Ranger), which are of British origin.

Sellers that won't ship outside the USA, there's another big problem.

andy
09-24-2013, 01:44 AM
What's with the random links in people's posts? Are things really that bad that VK needs to resort to inserting ads into people's posts?

Jon A.
09-24-2013, 04:16 AM
What's with the random links in people's posts? Are things really that bad that VK needs to resort to inserting ads into people's posts?
I turned off Adblock Plus and refreshed the page; nothing here.

jhalphen
09-24-2013, 05:52 AM
Hi to all,

@Scott-Est:
Yes, buying a RCA CC-030 or CKC-021 just to get the viewfinder is an expensive proposition in terms of shipping. You pay for a useless camera + a big shipping bag + an even bigger box to house everything.
Most E-Bay sellers don't understand "ship the VF, keep the rest".

I sent you the complete CKC-021 data to your private Mail address in 4 separate Mails. I hope you received them OK.

VF resolution & color quality:
a B&W VF has an extremely fine electron beam + a continuous screen phosphor deposit so the picture is much sharper than a color screen with discrete dots or stripes. This is why up to very recently Broadcast cameras always had a B&W viewfinder. Cameramen have always been very wary of producing out of focus pictures because the VF's resolution was too coarse.

NTSC output from a DVB-T or Sat digital demodulator: you see the best and the worst! often the NTSC output will be NTSC 3.58 but with 625/50 scan rate. A pseudo standards which reminds us of some weird signals produced by multistandard VHS machines in the past.
Also frequent: NTSC 4.43, identical to PAL but without the subcarrier alternation signal on R-Y.

@Andy: no advertising on VK seen here. I use FireFox.

Good day to all,

jhalphen
Paris/France

WISCOJIM
09-24-2013, 09:47 AM
What's with the random links in people's posts? Are things really that bad that VK needs to resort to inserting ads into people's posts?
If you hover over them and they say "powered by text enhance" or "skimwords", "skimlinks", etc. you may have malware on your computer that will turn regular text and links into their affiliate links.

lnx64
09-24-2013, 01:27 PM
Um there definitely is something here.. It's being added by SkimWords..

And this is on a fresh installed Mac.

EDIT: And I'll note, with Adblock Plus, it still shows up.

etype2
09-24-2013, 02:00 PM
Um there definitely is something here.. It's being added by SkimWords..

And this is on a fresh installed Mac.

EDIT: And I'll note, with Adblock Plus, it still shows up.

I have always seen this type of thing where the words are highlighted ever since I joined. I thought people were seeing actual ads. I don't see anything else.

jr_tech
09-24-2013, 02:08 PM
Yep! I think that it was once explained that the site gets a small amount of $$$ from these links... I used to spell Sony as S0ny so links would not show up, but stopped doing that when I found out that they provided some support for the site.
jr

I think that I only see them if javascript is enabled.

lnx64
09-24-2013, 03:02 PM
With most websites these days being written with JS, it's needed, and won't be turned off anytime soon here.

WISCOJIM
09-24-2013, 04:27 PM
Not appearing here either with Firefox or Internet Explorer. JS enabled.

lnx64
09-24-2013, 04:51 PM
I wonder what platforms it targets. :/ Hmm..

So I tried a few browsers. I use SeaMonkey primarily, which uses Firefox internally.

Safari > Has it.
Firefox > Has it.
Chrome > Has it.

So that's weird. I'm on a Mac latest OS (BETA testing the newer OS even), and you're on XP.

ChrisW6ATV
10-04-2013, 03:14 PM
I get those made-up links, too, and I am running Firefox with Adblock Plus.

Since the links may provide financial support to this site, I do not mind them at all. Maybe I will even click on one occasionally, just to help. :) A "Sony" one above is a link to some Sony Android phone on Amazon, for example. No harm at all to see that.

Maybe one will show up with a link to Indextron TV sets for sale! :eek:

Scott_Est
10-05-2013, 11:47 PM
No underlined links on my screen and I don't use any Adblock or similar programs.

I want to say once more big thanks to Jhalphen, who sent the full service manual for CKC021 viewfinder.

To fully analyse the schematics I need to print it out and glue these sheets together. But at first glance it is indeed quite strange system for me. This north-eastern corner in Europe we had 3-gun color-CRTs from the beginning of colour television introduction. I read that maybe England and other western countries had indexing-type TVs, but not sure about it. Though, one Russian portable color-TV set has one-beam electron gun, but creating colours to screen is done by two charged thin-wire layers between screen and the gun, that type of CRT is called chromatron.

I won't do anything to VF before I fully understand its "soul" and also I purchased a old and faulty, but reliable soviet era oscilloscope to make thing a lot easier. (Fault - scope has no horizontal deflection, but it easy to fix this.)

And have two more questions.

First: whitch is newer/modern VF, CKC021 or CKC030?
And second: what type of CRT is used in Panasonic CT-101A (http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Panasonic-CT-101-color-wordpress-5251.jpg)? Size is same 1,5 inch color CRT, but other information is controversial. One source said that it has 3 beam gun, other - 1 beam indextron(?).

Thanks

etype2
10-06-2013, 11:05 AM
[QUOTE=Scott_Est;3084333]No underlined links on my screen and I don't use any Adblock or similar programs.

I want to say once more big thanks to Jhalphen, who sent the full service manual for CKC021 viewfinder.

To fully analyse the schematics I need to print it out and glue these sheets together. But at first glance it is indeed quite strange system for me. This north-eastern corner in Europe we had 3-gun color-CRTs from the beginning of colour television introduction. I read that maybe England and other western countries had indexing-type TVs, but not sure about it. Though, one Russian portable color-TV set has one-beam electron gun, but creating colours to screen is done by two charged thin-wire layers between screen and the gun, that type of CRT is called chromatron.

I won't do anything to VF before I fully understand its "soul" and also I purchased a old and faulty, but reliable soviet era oscilloscope to make thing a lot easier. (Fault - scope has no horizontal deflection, but it easy to fix this.)

And have two more questions.

First: whitch is newer/modern VF, CKC021 or CKC030?
And second: what type of CRT is used in Panasonic CT-101A (http://www.visions4.net/journal/wp-content/uploads/Panasonic-CT-101-color-wordpress-5251.jpg)? Size is same 1,5 inch color CRT, but other information is controversial. One source said that it has 3 beam gun, other - 1 beam indextron(?).

Thanks[/QUOTE

Just a guess, numerical order would suggest the old and new.

The photo of the Panasonic CT-101A is from my website. I am the author of Visions4.net. The Panasonic CT-101 is a 3 gun, tri phosphor precision in line CRT. Source CQ-TV 202 May, 2003.

I am curious about the Russian portable Chromatron you refer to. Do you have photos or more information? I was not aware of such a set. I have a Sony 7 inch Chromatron model KV 7010U and two Sony KVX 370 Indextrons.

To the best of my knowledge, a annotated history: Sony produced the first ever commercial for the home Chromatron in 1965. It was a 19 inch, 3 gun Chromatron, model 19C 70, marketed only in Japan. In 1968, Sony marketed a 7 inch Chromatron model KV 7010U in the U.S. In 1988, Sony marketed the first stand alone, direct view Indextron television receiver, the KVX 370. (Sony also uses a 5.25 Indextron CRT in a projection television in 1984)

There is a rumor that a Japanese company Yaou, produced a 8 inch Chromatron as early as 1963, but so far have seen no evidence that happened.

Update: Jerome Halphin provided me with information from his recent visit to the NHK Museum in Toyko. The Yaou became the GENERAL TELEVISION COLORNET GTC-9 and indeed was marketed in Japan about 1965-66.

See PAGE FIVE TRINITRON on my website and scroll down to 1965. Photos and a report from Jerome.
http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/page-five/

jhalphen
10-06-2013, 10:35 PM
Hi to All,

to Scott_Estonia:

In the family of RCA color viewfinders using the Hitachi H6289 Beam-Index tube, the CKC-021 is the most rent. It has only 2x Printed Circuits Boards (PCBs) stacked one upon the other.

The older CC-030 uses 3x PCBs

CT-101 CRT: reference is Matsushita A04-JGM09X, 3 guns inline shadow-mask technology. See closeup photos.

Converting the VF to direct PAL/625 operation vs using a PAL to NTSC transcoder. I don't think it will work because the stripe pitch multiplied by scanning speed is optimized for NTSC.

From memory, in the theory of operation it says that 3.58 MHz color subcarrier info is heterodyned down to 2.667 MHz dot pitch frequency.

For PaL you would have to heterodyne 4.43 MHz to the same 2.667.
Hitachi built several complex analogue ICs to reduce component count/power consumption in the design. Duplicating this with transistors is going to involve a very complex board design job.

See the internal structure of the Hitachi HA-11759 Index Processor chip in page 6 of this thread.

Best Regards
jhalphen
Kyoto/Japan

Dave A
10-07-2013, 07:41 PM
Kyoto/Japan? I guess I have to play "Find Waldo/Halphen" soon.

jhalphen
10-08-2013, 03:20 AM
Hi Dave,

Not playing "Find Waldo", just on a trip to Japan.

Will be visiting the Sony Museum at Tokyo HQ + the NHK Museum of Broadcasting.

Hope to bring back lots of interesting shots.

Best Regards

jhalphen
Kyoto/Japan

Scott_Est
10-09-2013, 01:02 AM
I am curious about the Russian portable Chromatron you refer to. Do you have photos or more information? I was not aware of such a set.

I have no pictures and haven't seen it. I read about it from old estonian TV repairing book and even there is only couple of lines, stating that this kind of TV-set even existed. But I did some researce through russian Google web-pages (there's tons of info about soviet era television) and found out, that CRT is labeled 25ЛК1Ц (25LK1C), first introduction was made around 1976. This link (http://www.radiolibrary.ru/journal/radio/1976/9.djvu) gives you magazine called RADIO (djvu file) and on pages 32-33 are some sketches beside the text. Unfortunately no info about that set, where it was used. Newer 25ЛК2Ц 3-gun CRT is widely known (example http://www.rw6ase.narod.ru/000/tw/elektronika_c430.html).

etype2
10-09-2013, 10:41 AM
I have no pictures and haven't seen it. I read about it from old estonian TV repairing book and even there is only couple of lines, stating that this kind of TV-set even existed. But I did some researce through russian Google web-pages (there's tons of info about soviet era television) and found out, that CRT is labeled 25ЛК1Ц (25LK1C), first introduction was made around 1976. This link (http://www.radiolibrary.ru/journal/radio/1976/9.djvu) gives you magazine called RADIO (djvu file) and on pages 32-33 are some sketches beside the text. Unfortunately no info about that set, where it was used. Newer 25ЛК2Ц 3-gun CRT is widely known (example http://www.rw6ase.narod.ru/000/tw/elektronika_c430.html).



If that television with 25LK1C Chromatron went into production and not a engineering prototype, would make an interesting addition to Chromatron history. Still very interesting.

The first link failed to open but I opened the second link.

WISCOJIM
10-09-2013, 12:56 PM
The first link failed to open but I opened the second link.

Be very patient. That link took several minutes to open for me, but it is there.

etype2
10-09-2013, 06:12 PM
Be very patient. That link took several minutes to open for me, but it is there.


On Safari browser: Can not download file.
On Firefox browser: DJVU File, you need to download a file software for unrecognized file extension.

etype2
10-09-2013, 07:47 PM
I downloaded DJVU viewer and opened file. Is there anything worth translating? Do you know if it went into production?

Scott_Est
10-23-2013, 11:21 PM
Do you know if it went into production?

Hi again.

I searched and asked from my co-members at elfafoorum (http://www.elfafoorum.ee/threads/68592-25ЛК1Ц-kineskoobiga-teleri-infot) if they know anything about this TV-set. It seems that this was quite small special edition made for deputates of the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union celebrating 60-th year of Oktober Revolution.

TV set was made using "foreign" parts, as the russians didn't had enough small colour decoder and other blocks on discrete elements to fit into this cabinet (normal size TV-sets had SECAM-decoders with several tubes at that time). Called Aurora (Аврора in cyrillic), but Aurora is also a common B/W set, so web-searching founds them. There are 10 or even less answers on Internet about that chromatron, so sadly nothing more.

JeremyAbel
09-20-2016, 12:12 AM
Hi all, first time posting here! Sorry if reviving this thread is frowned upon, it just seemed like keeping all the Indextron VF info in one place made the most sense to me from a reference standpoint.

I'm yet another weirdo looking to use the viewfinder in the RCA CKC021 as a standalone monitor. I've got it all hooked up and such but I can't seem to get the color indexing portion to work correctly. It's all weird color confetti, all the time, and making the adjustments written in the service manual solves nothing, sadly.

I've been measuring voltages listed on the schematic, and I'm wondering if my version of the service manual is either old or incorrect, or if there's something broken on the board.

In the attached image of the schematic of the EVF Process I board (page 8-59 of the service manual), pin 18 of IC1701 should be 4.9V, connected to the right output of the 2.7MHz bandpass filter. However, on my board, pin 18 shares continuity with ground. I'm not sure if the BPF is broken, or if the schematic is incorrect. If anyone else has a CKC021 VF and could verify what voltage is supposed to be on that pin, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Also, wow, that pink Sharp model! I must have it!!

jr_tech
09-20-2016, 12:58 PM
I believe that the voltage shown on the schematic for pin 18 is incorrect. I measure close to zero... the only pin in that section (13-19) with much measurable voltage is pin 14, with about 4.8 volts.

jr

JeremyAbel
09-20-2016, 01:52 PM
Well dang, there goes my primary troubleshooting avenue ;)
Thanks for checking it out on yours

JeremyAbel
09-20-2016, 05:43 PM
I believe that the voltage shown on the schematic for pin 18 is incorrect. I measure close to zero... the only pin in that section (13-19) with much measurable voltage is pin 14, with about 4.8 volts.

jr

Another thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the signals shown in the oscilloscope screenshots are reading way low on my scope. Like the signal shape and frequency looks correct but the amplitude is often 10x lower than the service manual states. Like a signal that the manual says should be 0.2v p-p reads 20mV p-p on my scopes.

Electronic M
09-20-2016, 05:50 PM
Another thing I'm noticing is that a lot of the signals shown in the oscilloscope screenshots are reading way low on my scope. Like the signal shape and frequency looks correct but the amplitude is often 10x lower than the service manual states. Like a signal that the manual says should be 0.2v p-p reads 20mV p-p on my scopes.
Are you using a 1x or 10X scope probe?

JeremyAbel
09-20-2016, 06:13 PM
1x, is the manual screenshots done with a 10x?

Electronic M
09-20-2016, 06:17 PM
10x attenuates signal by a factor of 10...They say 10x so that you remember to multiply your reading by 10 so it is accurate.

JeremyAbel
09-20-2016, 08:14 PM
y'know I checked my probe before I started probing. Just checked it again, sure enough the little switch was on 10x... must have slipped while contorting my hand to hold the probe on some pin at some point. Today has not been going my way so far lol

centralradio
09-21-2016, 12:59 AM
I found this site on Indextron.I'm surprised they did not go with the Panasonic CT-101 CRT tube in the VF.Maybe because there was to much electronics to cram into the VF shell.


http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/indextron/

JeremyAbel
09-21-2016, 02:30 AM
I found this site on Indextron.I'm surprised they did not go with the Panasonic CT-101 CRT tube in the VF.Maybe because there was to much electronics to cram into the VF shell.


http://www.visions4.net/journal/time-line/page-two/page-two-a/page-three/page-three-a/indextron/

heh that's etype2's site, as seen in other posts in this thread

andy
09-21-2016, 11:12 AM
y'know I checked my probe before I started probing. Just checked it again, sure enough the little switch was on 10x... must have slipped while contorting my hand to hold the probe on some pin at some point. Today has not been going my way so far lol

As a general rule, you always want to use the probe in 10x mode unless you need to look at a signal that's too small to see in 10x mode. In 10x mode it loads down the circuit less and helps protect the scope from over voltage damage. Also, the bandwidth in 1X mode is generally very low.

JeremyAbel
09-22-2016, 02:39 PM
Ahhhh, that'll help with the loading problems I've been seeing when I probe stuff! I figured that was the problem but it never occurred to me to solve it that way.

centralradio
09-23-2016, 01:41 AM
heh that's etype2's site, as seen in other posts in this thread

OK I did not know that .Thanks etype2 for wealth of info on your website.

etype2
07-14-2017, 05:56 PM
Andy recapped and cleaned the circuit boards on my two Sony KVX 370 Indextrons more then 7 1/2 years ago. Both are still running strong as the day he returned then to me.

We decided to do a couple of videos to show what they look like operating. I don't think anyone has done that in the forums so far. I've done videos on conventional three gun color sets and have not encountered the scan problem seen in these two videos. Different scan rate? Not sure.

In this link, the top two videos show one of my two Indextrons. Choose the HD setting, otherwise you will see low quality video. https://m.youtube.com/channel/UCejCrh3g0-hsYCG63RHNyYA

(Some might say the Indextrons produce cr*p video anyway) :-)

old_tv_nut
07-14-2017, 06:51 PM
Two things contributing to the dark bars:
1) Whatever your camera is, it's running at 60.00 Hz (or 30.00) instead of NTSC 59.94 Hz (or 29.97). This causes the bars to drift vertically.
2) The shutter duration is too narrow. If there is no direct shutter control on your camera, you could try reducing the brightness of the TV to get the camera to lengthen the shutter time

etype2
07-14-2017, 10:05 PM
It's a iPad Pro 10.5. I have the ability to take it out of auto and set exposure and focus. We almost always take screenshots manually including videos. We touch and hold the LCD screen in the center of the video image and the camera reads the light of that point and locks the focus and exposure. It gives the best results. By doing this it darkens the surroundings.

For some reason, only on the one gun Indextron, we see this dark slow scan on videos and on screenshots, it's hit and miss. I can't see it on the LCD but the shot will come out dark in a portion and correctly exposed as to the remainder. Other shots will be fine, but I have to do multiple shots to be sure I catch a full exposed image. This only happens with an Indextron. Only one electron beam scanning instead of three must have something to do with it.

The frame rate for the two videos is 29.75 at 1/30 second. 4K

old_tv_nut
07-14-2017, 10:17 PM
We touch and hold the LCD screen in the center of the video image and the camera reads the light of that point and locks the focus and exposure. It gives the best results. By doing this it darkens the surroundings.


This is a good procedure for getting an exposure that is correct for the image, no matter how bright or dim. Since it should give correct exposure of the picture for all cases (by adjusting shutter duration), you should be able to do a quick experiment by setting the Indextron for a dim picture and see if this causes the iPad to expand the shutter time.

etype2
07-14-2017, 10:24 PM
I will try that and see what we get. Thanks.

*As you may know, The Indextron suffers from low contrast because the photo cell needs to detect enough light to send a feedback signal and it can't be set to absolute black. This problem however was ameliorated in the larger Sony IDX 5000 Indextron.

By turning down the brightness the image will look washed out.

Sandy G
07-14-2017, 10:31 PM
NEVER have understood -which was USU AWHY they went off on such aly a costly & ultimately highly wasteful item.

old_tv_nut
07-14-2017, 10:36 PM
I will try that and see what we get. Thanks.


Hope it works - looking forward to your report. No telling for sure what an automated video camera will decide to do.

etype2
07-14-2017, 10:41 PM
NEVER have understood -which was USU AWHY they went off on such aly a costly & ultimately highly wasteful item.

It's all about the technology. The idea that a full color image can be produced from a single electron beam instead of three fascinates me. As a result no need for convergence control, simple circuits, etc.

I will be posting a video of the Sony IDX 5000 Indextron which has a bigger screen, much improved contrast and resolution. The phosphor and index stripes are of a finer pitch. It's so bright it hurts your eyes when it's turned on because it produces a brief white screen during power up.

old_tv_nut
07-14-2017, 10:46 PM
You also have to realize that this was during the time when Japanese TV companies were flush with cash and dozens of hired-for-life engineers who needed something to occupy them - so projects that an American company would study on paper and reject at that point were carried through by the Japanese to sometimes very costly prototype / limited production.

etype2
07-14-2017, 10:51 PM
"No telling for sure what an automated video camera will decide to do."�� :-)

Also it was a time when TFT LCD color televisions were already invented. The Indextron would not have survived, but I'm convinced that the Indextron could have been developed to be superior to the Trinitron if circumstances permitted.

old_tv_nut
07-14-2017, 10:54 PM
Another note regarding the background gray level needed for the indexing to work. Plasma panels had a similar problem at first, but ways were found to reduce the unwanted "fog" as time went by. It's quite possible that Indextron design could eventually have been improved incrementally to a point where it was acceptable compared to a shadow mask CRT too, but it died before enough effort could be concentrated on it.

Sandy G
07-15-2017, 10:46 AM
Usually, 2 or 3 times a year, we'll have a Snot-Slingin'Thunderstorm roll thru here. Adios ,passwords !Then, Uncle Sandy has to go back, & try to get the miserable machine to accept the password that was Hunky-Dory last night, but VERBOTEN now..I kinda think it does this just to SPITE me...

etype2
07-15-2017, 07:48 PM
I would like to expand on a portion of my earlier comment:

"We touch and hold the LCD screen in the center of the video image and the camera reads the light of that point and locks the focus and exposure. It gives the best results."

This is the camera control panel on the iPad Pro 10.5

https://visions4netjournal.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/img_2712.jpg

The left vertical scale is the optical zoom. The yellow box right of center is the auto override exposure setting that took this screenshot. I placed it there so the "sun" icon can be seen in this screenshot. You can see it is locked by the text above. We added the blue arrow to point out the "sun" icon. We can take this one step further. For instance, if we want the best skin tones, we would place the AE and AF box on the women's face. If we were not satisfied, we then place the finger on the "sun" control and a vertical scale appears, exposure up or down.

The camera is 4K ressoultion on video with optical steady shot. It's a crafty piece of engineering for such a tiny camera. How do I say this, the optical steady control actually floats like a gyroscope. It is not digital. Same thing for the optical zoom.

old_tv_nut
07-15-2017, 08:46 PM
thanks

Sandy G
07-15-2017, 11:28 PM
I'd be HAPPY if I could get my KV-7010U back from that yahoo in Ohio..

WISCOJIM
07-15-2017, 11:35 PM
I'd be HAPPY if I could get my KV-7010U back from that yahoo in Ohio..You've been bringing that up here for more than 7 years. Hasn't the statute of limitations run out already?

.

Electronic M
07-16-2017, 12:33 AM
I'd be HAPPY if I could get my KV-7010U back from that yahoo in Ohio..
Odds are you'll never see that particular one again.
Wish I had one to offer ya....Someone here oughta try n find ya another one.