Do I pull the trigger on this beast for $250? Near me. $100 seems right.

Not the same disappearing Westminster as 1948. Maybe the same cabinet. This one has a turntable and a tape player.

It seems to be the 19" tube. Seller says the cabinet is 7 of 10. He will let me check the CRT this Saturday.

Stop me before I buy again!

If you can get a hefty discount on that $250, go for it. This thing is just too huge for many folks to be interested. You'll probably be the only person the seller gets a real offer from. I'm interested to know if that cabinet is of the same design as the Westie series one.

That is a really unusual set. Not many TV had a tape deck! You should get it, Dave.:-)

If it has a tape deck, someone installed it later. Still, the set, like most Dumonts, looks nice. They never held back on cabinet size; that's for sure. This set looks like an RA-109 with extra cabinet space. As if a Dumont ever lacks in size and weight...

I think that you will be able to negotiate a better price, but the condition of the CRT is the BIGGEST deal. I can remember my father and I wrestling a 109 up three fights of steps to my room when I was a teen. We had an industrial appliance dolly for wheels, but still, this was one monster of a job. Actually, if I knew then what I know now, I would have pulled that 2 ton chassis, and maybe the crt, before trying to climb the steps.....

Magnetic tape dates to the late 40s. If this Dumont has an original tape unit, this is going to be one rare bird. Might instead have a wire recorder in it?

Jeez, that Bad Boi would be doin' some SERIOUS Talkin' to me if I was closer to it..."Sandy...You WANT me...You KNOW you do...PLEASE take me home...This chump is gonna make me into a Fishtank/wine rack...How could you live w/yrself if THAT was to happen..." Anybody else have that happen to 'em ?!? (grin)

According to this ad, it does have a tape deck as original;

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/adaccess.TV0088/pg.1/

RARE! I'd grab it... Being 1951, it's probably a 19AP4. Nice shape, as per the pics.

Charles

The deck itself looks a lot like a Magnecord PT-6, which was widely used in the broadcast industry:

http://www.vidipax.com/museum/msm15.html

But were the electronics DuMont custom?:scratch2:

jr

According to this ad, it does have a tape deck as original;

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/adaccess.TV0088/pg.1/

Apparently it was required to dress up to watch it.

"All three sizes, all three speeds." Didn't they have 16/45/33-1/3/78 in '51?

Jr_Tech: It does say professional quality tape recorder so you're probably right about the unit.

John

Dave,

Go and get it already. I can store it down in New Hope with my overflow....


Chuck

"All three sizes, all three speeds." Didn't they have 16/45/33-1/3/78 in '51?
John

I think 16 did not show up on changers until after the development of the "Highway Hi-Fi" in the mid 50s. See Dr Goldmarks account here:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Accessories/HiWay/invent.htm

jr

According to this ad, it does have a tape deck as original;

http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollections/adaccess.TV0088/pg.1/


I stand corrected. I knew the technology existed, but I never knew that they included it as a bell or whistle in an early TV. Makes perfect sense that Dumont would be the company to market it. I have always thought that it was sad that this once great company ended up going cheap and junky, then fading completely away. They were once truly the best in the business.......

I Have one I got back in the early 90's it's a verry high end set it has a decal inside one of the doors that says gurenteed genuine mahogany and that the wood used is from the west indies. It is also verry heavy and solid. I had always wonderd if there were any others left. I get a lot of wow's when people see it since it is such a grand set. If you have room for it get it you won't be disapointed.

Nice set!:thmbsp:
Thanks for posting the detailed picture... What I took to be reels on a Magnecord PT-6 recorder appear to be a timer clock and a UHF tuner logo...so where is the tape deck?

jr

It Is in the door on the left side under the record player.

Can you post a picture of the tape unit?

All right boys, here we go. I did visit the set yesterday and some photos follow. I took many more and may have to do a second post to add them for full viewing. I will start here with a longish presentation in the interest of research.

It is in a house being closed out as mom and dad are gone and the sons wish it a good home. The best part is how mom and dad got it. The house is from 1946. The previous owners bought the set in 1951 and sold the house in 1954 to the current owners. They left this $2k set behind because they did not want to move it. A lot of money to leave behind. All the paperwork is there including the control hang-tag to mount behind the knobs for users to follow for proper operation.

This DuMont RA116-A-1 set was the family set until the late 50's they got something smaller in another room and was not watched much after that. I found a CRT warranty tag inside from a change in 1958. It looks to be a no-name rebuild 19AP4A metal-cone from Almo Distributors, a local Phila company. Most other tubes have been changed with many mfrs in attendance. 34 tubes total.

Now the big CRT test...is it any good? The Beltron tells all. I hooked it up and it came up to .4 right away. I let it cook for 30 minutes and got it to .8 just short of the Beltron recommended .85. The Beltron life test ideal is 8-10 seconds before needle drop-off. I got 6-8 and the drop was slow. A winner. One son said that he graduated high school in 1962 and he remembers the set was not watched after that. It just sat.

As for the set. It looks to be the same cabinet as the Westminster I, the lift-out CRT version from 1948 that Chuck A has on his website. Just solid in the middle for a souped-up RA109 to be stuffed in...along with the glorified tuner, timer, tape deck and record player. The cabinet is quite good for the age. Just the usual scuff marks and age. The set is behind a bi-fold door that pulls to the left. Players are in two drawers on the left. Record storage below. A massive tuner/controls/timer panel on the right with the obligatory blank for DuMont UHF to come later. More DuMont inventions to come later.

Inside is 40+ years of dust and a few loose items laying around. One pulled focus tube and some nuts and bolts not put back in the CRT swap. The power cord is rotted. The main chassis is a wide thing that may be unique. And an added audio amp chassis for the players. The tuner/control panel is wide-open on the back with the huge focus dropping resistors mounted right there behind the front-panel focus control. No sign of any damage. The normal DuMont brass panels are quite dulled from age and are going to be a challenge to buff up. There is also a mysterious block of wood to the right of the chassis mounted to the chassis panel base. It is about 5"x5"x3/4" with a 3" hole in the middle and three smaller holes surrounding the main hole. I have no clue what it is for but it is a part of the construction.

I will let others identify the record player and tape recorder. The instructions indicate the tape deck is wired directly to the main chassis to record tv programs. The original Shure mic is with the recorder as is the eye tube.

The tuner panel is unique with the Telechron timer in place. Pull-tabs are surrounding the clock for on-off. The sons said they had a lot of fun playing with that. The tuner is the usual DuMont Inductuner arrangement with the added AM band.

On the back of the chassis is the best find. A RCA connector clearly marked for "color converter"! My Col-R-Tel wheel is 32" wide for a 10" set. How big would this thing be if it was ever made for a 19AP4A?

And just for fun, the sons pulled out a Pilot 3" set they never mentioned to show me as the first family set. They are keeping it for now as it is a good size to keep. They also showed me the original Hotpoint electric stove in the kitchen from 1946. It had the factory deep-fryer option complete with deep-fryer pot. You lifted the back left burner up and then lowered it in it's tub and it became the burner at the bottom for the pot that would drop in to the space. I had to show them how it worked. Of course the original manual is there. It does sell with the house but the new owner may want it gone. Stay tuned.

I am sure I will remember more and am glad to answer all questions as best I can. And yes, I am going to grab it and figure out the problems later. We did negotiate to a point which included them storing it for another day. We met in the middle.

This is not just a purchase, but a great adventure finding a rare item and doing the seluthing that goes with it. This may need more help from nearby AK members to finish this. My house is small and I will need the help.

Dave A

Outstanding! Maybe on the next go-round I'll come back as a higher life form and run into deals like that :)

I wonder if the family still has any tapes made with that recorder . . . .

Phil Nelson

Phil,

You asked the question that I quietly had. This deck has a tape on it that could be some family history with the Shure mic or a recording of the Queen's Coronation from 1953. I should have grabbed the tape to find out. This set is in Philadelphia's "Main Line" territory. The home of very old money and who knows what else is hiding out there.

One of them gave me a tall piece of artwork from a Philco broadcast credits from 1939 that he was in as an actor. It is framed in my living room.

This old money saved everything. I dated a few of their daughters and know them well.

Dave A

A few more photos until my limit explodes. Cabinet and tuner panel shots including the mystery wood panel with the hole.

They also showed me the original Hotpoint electric stove in the kitchen from 1946. It had the factory deep-fryer option complete with deep-fryer pot. You lifted the back left burner up and then lowered it in it's tub and it became the burner at the bottom for the pot that would drop in to the space. I had to show them how it worked. Of course the original manual is there.

My parents had a Bendix brand electric stove (from around 1952 or so), and it had the deep fryer pot feature as well. That stove is long gone, but we kept the deep fryer pot, and it gets used to boil spaghetti. But the sauce is done in another pot. We sit it atop a regular burner. It's made of aluminum and I think my mom once cooked something with tomatoes, and tomato sauce will etch aluminum. So lots of little pits in the bottom. Oops. Heard it said that you really don't want aluminum compounds in the food.

Neat set! Great find! Glad you saved it.

John

Dave,
I believe your mysterious block of wood is for mounting the yoke assembly/focus coil for shipping , rather than letting it hang on the crt.

Congrats on the great find!

Enjoy

Bryan

I'd grab that stove too if possible. Those are built like tanks. I just got a matching G.E. electric stove and fridge which had been in a house here since 1957.

I do know that the stove is part of the sale to the new owners. I do not know if I can rescue it. I will try. Bad photo attached. Stove hijack not intended and another item to store this coming weekend.

Dave A

I was thinking, if someone could only own one vintage TV set, this would be a good one to own. Something special.

I think 16 did not show up on changers until after the development of the "Highway Hi-Fi" in the mid 50s. See Dr Goldmarks account here:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Accessories/HiWay/invent.htm

jr

I read the very interesting article on the development of the HiWay HiFi system but the timeline regarding the 16rpm speed doesn't make sense. There were record changers at least as early as 1950 with the 16rpm speed included. The Zenith Cobra-Matic for example. This picture is a 1950 model........ Bob

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu143/ampico-kid/zenith_cobra-matic_1950.jpg

I read the very interesting article on the development of the HiWay HiFi system but the timeline regarding the 16rpm speed doesn't make sense. There were record changers at least as early as 1950 with the 16rpm speed included. The Zenith Cobra-Matic for example. This picture is a 1950 model........ Bob

http://i642.photobucket.com/albums/uu143/ampico-kid/zenith_cobra-matic_1950.jpg

Wow! That is a very cool changer... I stand corrected.:yes: Wonder what 16 rpm records were available at the time ?

jr

The 16-2/3 RPM speed was originally used for "talking books" which were LP's designed to be used by the visually impaired.

I've been a vintage electronics nut since the mid-1970s, and never seen a 16 rpm record. I was curious how so many changers had the speed, but no records. I had heard that they were some kind of specialty record not for music, and I didn't know if any were ever cut. Reece might have answered this! Usually a "hopeful, but never-to-make-market item like that will only be mentioned for a year or two on whatever the host item is... Such as the brief period when we had AM-Stereo in the early 80s, and before the RCA-CBS color TV war was over in '53, there were a lot of '51-'52 black & white TV sets sold with "color adaptor" sockets. That would have been for the CBS color system, or other mechanical color systems like Col-R-Tel.

Charles

You can find a few 16 rpms on eBay. They seemed to have quite a few more last year. I only see one with music. The others are narrations of the bible.

John

I found an interesting thread here on a record forum:

http://bsnpubs.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=84340

Which contains a link to a paper with info on 16 2/3 rpm records (about 2/3 of the way through the paper):

http://78rpmrecord.com/altformat.htm

Many different formats of 16 rpm records seem to have preceded the "Highway Hi-Fi", including some as large as 22" for background music. Dr Goldmark perhaps was the first to use the very fine pitch groves ( 0.25 mil stylus). I think that I once saw a boxed set of 16 2/3 records mixed in with boxed sets of 45s... these records had a huge center hole, about the size of the label on a 45. Guess I should have bought the set.

But, getting back to the DuMont, That is a GREAT find (even if the changer does not play all 4 record speeds that were available at the time ! :yes:) I am still stumped about the tape deck, the head and pinch roller covers resemble the shape of those used by Tandberg, but the photo does not appear to match early Tandberg machines. Did DuMont make the deck? It will be interesting to see if there is any identification on the unit itself.:scratch2:
jr

Our local Goodwill had the bible on 16 rpm a few years back-pressed on clear red vinyl, the discs numbered in the hundreds.

Seems like I remember using 16 RPM records in grade school. They may have been the ones that were the same outside diameter as a regular 45 RPM, but had the 1/4" spindle hole like a 33 or 78 RPM.

Update. The Westminster was picked up today and is safely in it's new home in New Jersey...but not my home. I looked at my backed up repairs waiting to happen and decided it was too much for me. There are already three color sets in the living room and no space big enough for the beast is the rest of the house. But fear not, another AKer got it. Amplico-kid now has a full-time job ahead of him restoring it. Best of luck Bob and keep us posted on how it goes.

What a great find! I hope it is completely restorable. If you want to add a color wheel to this set it will need to be 46-1/2 inches diameter.

The tape recorder is an "International Electronics Model P-3" found in Sams 88-4. This is for the mechanism only, so I think the record - play electronics would have been designed by Du Mont.

The record player is a "Webster-Chicago Model 100" found in Sams 135-14. Hope this helps and I have these folders if you need them.
Cliff

Clif,

You have made every variety of color wheels for other projects. Give this one a try! Bob may have a spectacular color set on his pickup truck. Actually, I would like to see the schematic of whatever was supposed to do the color trick.

The tape and turntable info is most helpful for getting it back to 1951. The turntable drawer seem to pull only about 2/3 of the way out and makes loading records a bit of a challenge.

I opted out as I looked more closely at my RA-109 and having a spare CRT, I decided to go with it. Maybe I can mount my "color tv" plastic sheet on it.

Dave A

Update. The Westminster was picked up today and is safely in it's new home in New Jersey...but not my home. I looked at my backed up repairs waiting to happen and decided it was too much for me. There are already three color sets in the living room and no space big enough for the beast is the rest of the house. But fear not, another AKer got it. Amplico-kid now has a full-time job ahead of him restoring it. Best of luck Bob and keep us posted on how it goes.

Thank you Dave for giving me the opportunity to own this incredible contraption. I've been looking it over and although not the next in line to be restored, I'm already formulating my plan of attack. I think this one's going to be a lot of fun (and time). I can't believe the size of this thing! It almost comes up to my chest and I stand 6' tall. I'm also looking forward to working on the tape deck. I spent almost 30 years repairing all kinds of tape units, but I don't think I ever came across this particular machine. I always like working on something new and different. This DuMont is going to be an interesting and educational experience. Thank you Dave for making it happen.

Clif, this whole color wheel discussion has me intrigued, but I have to plead ignorance about the whole thing, except for the basics. The color wheel idea was all just a little before my time.

What's involved to construct a "color wheel", and how does it work? Would it be practical to construct one large enough for this set? I assume it would sit on top of the TV cabinet? How expensive it something like this? How well might it be expected to work?

Thanks for the information.....

Bob

Clif, I would like to see the schematic of whatever was supposed to do the color trick. Dave A

Hi Dave,
The Du Mont Royal Sovereign also has this 'color converter' output jack on the rear of the chassis.

In the RA-119 schematic this is a cathode follower output from the 1st video amp after the detector, so it's a composite video signal output for color.

This is just a guess, but if this were for a CBS color conversion, which seems logical since this is a set from 1950-51, the RA-116 output would probably be intended to feed a CBS 'Slave Receiver' rather than a converter chassis and a BIG wheel for the RA-116.

Given Du Mont's disdain for the CBS system I can't imagine them building a working CBS wheel adaptor 5 feet in diameter and modifying the set's sweeps
to accomplish this. See the Du Mont CBS color wheel 'mockup' [attached].

However, all things are possible, and it is feasable to build a wheel for a 19 inch CRT and drive the set with one of Darryl's SCRF-525M-SC [Col-R-Tel] converters. Not CBS color but high quality field sequential color and a show stopper.

[Disclaimer to all: I'm just a very satisfied customer and not otherwise connected to Darryl's converter factory.]

Cliff

What's involved to construct a "color wheel", and how does it work? Would it be practical to construct one large enough for this set? I assume it would sit on top of the TV cabinet? How expensive it something like this? How well might it be expected to work? Bob

Making color on this set can be done most easily with the ready-to-fly converter mentioned in the post to Dave. This works by feeding a DVD player or other video source like a set top box into the converter, then tuning in the converter's CH 4 output using the Du Mont's tuner.

Now you need a wheel spinning at 600 RPM in front of the CRT. A color wheel for a 19 inch CRT will need to be about 46 inches in diameter to allow viewers seated left and right of the screen to get a full color view. A nice woodwork cabinet to hide the wheel and the mechanics is a good idea and it keeps pets, kids, and some adults away from the spinning disk. The circuitry to spin and sync the wheel to the color phasing pulse is not difficult and can be built using just transistors if you want to avoid ICs. Hope this helps.

All this begsthe question: Will it become appropriate at some point to move this discussion to the vintage color section?

Cliff

See the Du Mont CBS color wheel 'mockup' [attached]. Cliff

The attachment didn't make it, probably because it has been posted previously
in another thread. I'll try again. This image is courtesy of John Folsom.
Cliff

If you are interested in building a color converter and wheel for your B&W TV set, the following will be found a very useful guide. Information on NTSC color converters from 1955 is available by clicking on the links below to the Early Television Foundation Museum website. Examples of both converters in full working condition are on display at the ETF Museum in Hilliard Ohio.

The first is the 'Colordaptor' which was described in a R/E magazine construction article. You had to build the electronic converter and the color wheel from scratch, although the authors made some parts available via mail order.
http://www.earlytelevision.org/colordaptor.html

The second is the Col-R-Tel converter, a complete, ready to install converter chassis and wheel system that sold then for $150.00. It could be installed on a set in an afternoon. Quite a number of these units are still operating today.
http://www.earlytelevision.org/col-r-tel.html

The avitar above is of my Col-R-Tel bought in 1960, restored and installed on a Philco 12 inch 50T-1403 about 3 years ago.
Cliff