Ive wanted a 50s tv for as long as I remember and saw this the other day sitting out in the rain sadly. It was still out there today and it seemed to be in decent enough shape so I grabbed it. It looks like it could be a 56 or 57 philco diamond series? but the back panel is missing and its pretty grubby back there. Its marked 7L7 U on the chassis and 10302017705 and has a 21AMP4A picture tube in it which is a westinghouse and appears to be dated '63 so it was probably replaced at some point. Id like whatever info anyone has to give on it. Im really not sure what to do with it yet at this point. It seems like there may be some missing parts but it may still be salvagable although it did sit out in the rain for a long time:no: Ive never taken on a tv resto before and im not sure if I could handle it. Ive redone a couple tube amps before but this is a much bigger project.
http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/42535/2588922240103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2588922240103895522uFCdiN)

That is a 1957 top-of-line TV. It is one of the best performing B&W chassis made by Philco. It uses a side mounted flat chassis. Some use a Top Touch motor driven tuner. That should be an easy restoration and produce an outstanding picture.

Cool thanks for confirming the year for me. I looked around and found adds from 56 and 57 with similar looking models but no perfect match. Where would I start with something like this? Its sitting in my furnace room now where its somewhat warm so hopefully it dries out. Should I try bringing it up on a variac or just replace all the caps first?

That is a matter of choice. I prefer to troubleshoot before a complete restoration so I don't accidently build in troubles. Give it a few days and start it slowly on a variac. Remove the 5U4 and let it cook for awhile with no B+. Watch for smoke or crackling. If the tubes light and no smoke, then put in a good 5U4 and repeat the slow start.

I like to put a meter on the B+ disconnect the HOT and the VOT (all tubes) and bring it up slow while monitoring the B+. If you take all the tubes out of circuit you can check for reforming of the caps, the current should be very low all the way up. You want to monitor the B+v also, with no plate loads you could go over voltage so watch that as well. If they come up ok, then I put the tubes in and monitor the B+ again (volt and current) to see if it comes in ok. I dont like a slow power up once the sweep circuits are hooked up, dont like the idea of a osc not oscillating due to low v, so that power ups is pretty quick (you already know the B+ is not shorted prior to the full powerup). Keep you eye on the voltage and current.

I like to keep the current meter on even after power up and it is running fine, at least for the 1st few hours of service.


opps I just realized the era, it may have a tube recifier, so you will need to leave that one in. Just be carefull not to go over V due to lower loads.

I also take a primary pt reading of ohms just to be sure its not a dead short (hard on the variac), I also monitor the AC current. My sets look like they are in the ER when 1st power up...

JGlenn, I have one of those. Got mine just before Hurricane Rita, and that was what we had to watch during the storm as the new color set I had wouldn't pick up crap during that windy night!

I spent a couple of days going thru it... had lots of stuff to replace. Someone had already done a lot of work on the deflection board... looked like work from the 60's or 70's judging by the caps used. I found the chassis pretty easy to work on.

Back then, Don pointed out this was a great chassis as far as performance, and he was right! Once I re-capped everything, this baby played great, and still does today! I watch this very regularly, and haven't done a thing to it since the re-cap. In fact, I watched it last night for several hours. The sound is great on it as well! Mine actually had tubes in it date-coded from 1983 when I got it! The CRT had been replaced in the 60's.

This is one of my favorite sets... and to think I nearly turned it down! Glad I didn't!

Hope yours goes as easily as mine did!

JGlenn,

You mentioned you think there may be some missing parts. What do you think is missing?

My DD had several issues. In addition to the bad caps on the deflection board (some of which were cracked open), I found nearly all of the resistors on that board to be way out of spec. It has one of those "combination components" in the vertical section that was causing issues. I made a new one from scratch.

Don had mentioned a 1000 ohm 1/2 watt resistor in the tuner that had a high failure rate, and he was right. I found it to be way out of whack. I also found two 470k resistors in the tuner that went south. One was open and the other was reading nearly 1 meg.

When you take the chassis out of the set, you must first remove the escutcheon where the front controls are. There are two small screws that hold it in place at the top and bottom. The plastic on mine was somewhat brittle where the screws are, so be gentle when removing and replacing them. Once the escutcheon is removed, then you have screws that hold the 4 lower knobs in place... those screws and knobs will come off as well.

There is a small 3-position switch at the bottom of the escutcheon for range. It's not very noticeable at first glance. It should be kept in the middle position.

Seems I recall there not being a lot of good room under the chassis for mounting new electrolytics, so, if you don't go with re-stuffing the original cans, you might have to get creative in finding spots to mount the new replacements.

Philco flat out made some great sets back then. My best set is an unrestored 1956 Philco. It FINALLY used up a picture tube after around fifty years of faithful service. I am only 40, I got the set when I was around 13 at a Goodwill, it had a brightener on it when I bought it around twenty-five years ago, and I put a LOT of use on that tube, especially as a teen. It saw much more limited service in later years after I got out of the service. I guess thats how the tube lasted that long on afterburn.....

wow thats pretty cool. Looks like the tube in my tv has been replaced as it has a westinghouse label on it and I can see where the nuts that hold the tube bracket in place have been reinstalled. If im reading the date code on the tube correct its from the 39th week of 1963. Theres a few wires that are hanging loose in the back and what looks like some piggyback connectors to go in place of a small tube... theres also some quick disconect type connectors in the harness that goes to the picture tube that are just hanging there. I'll have to get some pictures. Charlie I see what you mean about the escutcheon around the knobs, its been off more than once and the screws have pulled through and there is a small crack in it already. Its still a useable piece though the set's no showroom example either after sitting out in the rain the sides are a bit warped. The safety glass is loose in the cabinet as well but that looks like and easy enough fix with some felt pieces or something to keep it from rattling. This set doesnt have the touch tuner option but it has two speakers and proudly displays that up front, Im not sure if they all came like that or not.

Yeah the two screws on mine have pulled thru as well... but the knobs will hold it in place just fine. Apparently, if the chassis has been pulled a few times, those little holes get stressed since that has to come off to get the chassis out.

The connector harness you speak of might be for the deflection yoke.

some of it almost looks like it was added at some point but im not sure. heres a few pics.
http://inlinethumb40.webshots.com/2407/2288100850103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2288100850103895522XGeKNT)
the wires from that pair of connectors come of this transformer
http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/44665/2243814490103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2243814490103895522EDHHkK)
heres the connectors that are pulled apart in the picture tube harness
http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/45884/2286281020103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2286281020103895522fbQHNw)
looks like mine has a block off plate for that connector on the back of yours
http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/44037/2184098490103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2184098490103895522wPyjmp)
http://inlinethumb57.webshots.com/42552/2969243870103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2969243870103895522fWDWEF)
http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/42494/2060393660103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2060393660103895522nGWzvY)
this is the one that has me wondering what happened, its just clipped off and it looks like its been like that for some time.
http://inlinethumb14.webshots.com/42637/2995511250103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2995511250103895522wsbOkK)
http://inlinethumb10.webshots.com/45385/2653393310103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2653393310103895522ZcdUxm)
http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/41286/2218675300103895522S425x425Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2218675300103895522FUVyoh)

The photos are a bit fuzzy, so it's kinda hard to tell. The small transformer at the top of the chassis is your audio output transformer and two wires should go to the speakers.

Picture #3... cant really tell a whole lot.

Picture #4... that's your antenna connections. Two of those leads should go to the tuner. Also, that big shiny piece of foil paper in the top of the cabinet is your "built in" antenna. If you are using an external antenna, the leads going to the foil paper thing would stay disconnected. There should also be attenuator switch nearby for that internal antenna.

Can't tell much about that single wire by iteself.

The socket you see to the right of my antenna board is for the optional wired remote. The wires that go from that socket travel down to another socket behind the 5U4 tube (which looks empty on your set) and also goes to the tuner motor.

If you like, PM me with an email address, and I'll send you a much larger photo with better detail of the inside of my set... and maybe you can match up some of what's in your set.

yea sorry those were taken with a cell phone, I can get some better ones later when the wife gets home with the camera. some big pics would be awesome I'll pm you with my email address. your right about the empty socket behind the 5u4, at first I thought there was a missing tube and then I saw the harness plugged in there in the pics of your set and figured it was for the motor driven controls that mine doesnt have, your set is very nice by the way. Most of the tube in my set are replacements so it looks like somebody cared enough about it to keep it going for quite a while and maybe there wont be that much wrong with it.

I was looking at the wiring coming off that audio output tranny and those small connectors are wired in the middle of the line down to the speakers. Then I found a tag saying its been equipped with "phonevision" that looks about almost as old as the tv, any ideas what that might of been? Im guessing I should remove it.

Perhaps there's a single RCA jack somewhere on the back of the chassis that would allow you to plug a phonograph into? I do not recall mine having that, but, if yours uses a slightly different chassis than mine, it's possible you might have that feature.

I wouldn't remove it till you find out what it is. I'm sure it's from the factory.

I did a little searching and it was actually a primitive pay tv service in that started in the 50s and never really caught on. I guess there would be a box that got some signal over the air and then some aditional signals over a phone line to unscramble. kinda interesting.

Oh well in that case, your Hi-Def Dish Network or Direct TV should hook right up with no problem at all! :D :lmao:

I did a little searching and it was actually a primitive pay tv service in that started in the 50s and never really caught on. I guess there would be a box that got some signal over the air

There were those supressed horizontal sync scrambled TV stations, usually up at the upper end of the UHF TV band. We had one in the NYC area on channel 68, here's the box you rented from the service
http://www.wa2ise.com/radios/wht-panel.jpg http://www.wa2ise.com/radios/wht.jpg
http://www.wa2ise.com/radios/wht-inside.jpg
The missing horiz sync signal was added to the audio subcarrier, along with the soundtrack modulated as a double sideband suppressed AM carrier at around 31KHz (twice the horiz frequency), a lot like FM stereo is done where the soundtrack would be the L-R signal, and a "barker" (someone telling how great the movie service is) sound on the baseband mono audio, to be heard by people tuning the channel without the decoder on their TV sets. Then the box would add the missing horiz sync back to the video, and send that to the TV set. You'd see tons of pirate decoder boxes at swap meets and such, most not working all that well.

Building such a decoder box using tube technology would be rather expensive, similar to a TV set but without the CRT and deflection circuits. That's probably why it bombed, that much investment would have to be paid off in a couple of years and then getting movies that just finished their runs in movie houses but before they hit regular TV would be expensive too. "Wometco Home Theatre" lasted about 12 years before it folded.

Slightly different more primitive system which would not work for color:

"The Phonevision system was operational on station WHCT in Hartford, Connecticut for at least two years, ending in 1969. The station would run conventional (non-subscription) programming during the day as an "independent," and then switch to Phonevision encoded programming in the evening. The system operated by switching a delay line in and out of the video, which chopped the picture into slats (like looking through an open venetian blind). Half of the slats would be shifted to the right by a significant amount. Decoding reversed the process and slid the other slats over the same amount, realigning the picture. The video information was also reversed in phase, exchanging black and white. The audio was processed by "frequency inversion scrambling," shifting the audio spectrum up 2.625 kHz in frequency. This produced audio that sounded much like single sideband radio except that only high frequencies were present. Decoding of the audio was done by a dual-conversion processor. The audio was first shifted up 31.5 kHz, and then shifted down 34.125 kHz, producing a net "downshift" of 2.625 kHz. 31.5 was double the horizontal sweep frequency of 15.750 kHz, and 34.125 kHz was 13/6 ths of 15.750, giving a convenient frequency reference. The frequency tolerance was so tight that if encoded audio were recorded during a Phonevision broadcast, and then played back later into a homemade processor running on normal network programming, a slight frequency error could be detected in the restored audio. Also, when the station switched to local sync to run a local commercial, the frequency change could be heard. One of the major limitations of the Phonevision system was that due to the delay line being switched in and out, color could not be broadcast, as the 3.58 MHz phase lock necessary for NTSC color broadcasting could not be held. This limitation contributed to the demise of the system, along with the FCC authorization of subscription programming about 1969."

From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonevision

I finally borrowed a variac and brought this up today. No bad suprises thankfully and it has a raster, the bottom 1/3 of the screen is lit up gray and the rest is black with gray horiz. lines running through it and everything is tilted about 30 degrees. Where do I go from here? I'm a bit nervous to be poking around back there now that its been powered up.

Cleveland had a TV station that operated much like the Hartford station did. The Cleveland station started out in 1968 as WKBF-TV (Kaiser Broadcasting) on channel 61, and was a full-service independent station until it went off the air (financial difficulties) in 1975. This station was replaced in 1982 by WCLQ-TV, also channel 61. This station operated, as Hartford's WHCT did, as a standard television station during the day (receivable just as well as any other local channel in the area), with off-network reruns and movies. However, at 8 p. m. EST, WCLQ-TV switched from commercial to subscription TV, and was scrambled from then until the wee hours of the morning (or perhaps it ran subscription TV all night; I never stayed up late enough to find out). A special antenna (cut especially for channel 61) and a special decoder were required to receive the pay-TV service. The station eventually gave up on pay subscription TV, becoming, in the late '80s IIRC, WQHS-TV, a home-shopping channel. That station ran for some time as an HSN [Home Shopping Network] affiliate (I don't recall how long) before it dropped the network and replaced HSN with Spanish-language programming from Univision, which it has aired (and is still airing, digitally of course since 06.12.09), to this day.

BTW, I picked up a couple of old Zenith TVs years ago (I no longer have them) that had input sockets on the backs of the chassis for a Phonevision decoder. I never saw the Phonevision system in operation (maybe it wasn't available in my area at the time the service was launched, or at any time while it was operational), but I do think it must have been a forerunner of today's pay-cable TV systems, in that a special converter box was required to decode the signal so that it could be viewed, and of course there was the usual monthly fee for the service. I also remember reading an article in Popular Electronics or one of the electronics magazines of the '60s having to do with a Canadian pay-television service called Telemeter, IIRC, in the early 1960s, which was Canada's short-lived answer to Zenith's Phonevision. This service operated much like the American Phonevision system did; however, one difference between the two systems was that Telemeter required that the viewer insert a certain number of coins into the box to view a given movie (the prices of these movies were shown on a special preview channel, which was the default channel the box showed on the viewer's television if no movies were selected). The Canadian Telemeter service also had a feature that supposedly thwarted theft of coins from the converter's coin box. If the viewer initially decided to watch a movie on the service and started to put a coin in the slot, then decided seconds later (!) that he didn't want to see it after all, the box would shut off (likely requiring reactivation by a Telemeter representative) if the viewer tried to pull the coin out of the slot before it dropped into the coin box. If the viewer somehow got inside the Telemeter converter and tried to shake the coins out of the box, the coin box was arranged so that it would lock from the inside, thereby thwarting unauthorized access to and theft of the coins already in it.

Where do I go from here?
If you haven't replaced capacitors yet, now's the time to start. Begin with the electrolytics in the power supply. This article has some basics of recapping.

http://antiqueradio.org/recap.htm

Take your time and check things off in the schematic. The article includes sources for getting schematics and a guide for reading them, if you need that.

It's encouraging that you have a raster of sorts. It means some key parts are working. Don't obsess over getting a perfect picture right away. That may be pretty impossible while your TV is still full of dozens of bad capacitors.

Phil Nelson

It can be a lot of fun to just grab the schematic and get er runnin again...but most importantly be safe around hv leads and stuff...

Very encouraging to see a raster at this stage, as Phil points out.

If re-caping the entire set seems like a huge project, you might consider just doing the vertical circuit first (likely not more than 6-10 caps) then bring the set up on the variac and see where to go from there. You may develop some "troubleshooting" skills, by observing the operation of various circuits.

For grins, last night I powered up (on a variac) an early 50s 16 inch Philco that had not been turned on in over 20 years. I appears to have a vertical sweep problem similar to the one you describe. I intend to replace about 8 caps in the vertical section first (assuming that tube substitution does not fix the problem) and see where that takes me. Since I do not intend for this set to be a "daily driver", I will replace enough parts to produce a stable picture, and not "shotgun" the entire set.

jr

I'm so happy to see that Philco saved from the junkyard. Very interesting chassis layout, and a great picture. Enjoy it !!
I cut my TV repair teeth on mostly Philco's, and have sort of affection for them. Maybe one day, I'll find another worthy tandem-chassis set to restore.
Kevin

Following this Philco thread makes me wanna get that old Philco 50T-16xx a going - but too many projects right now - maybe by spring.

I wonder --- If I removed the 16AP4A --- and set one of those little marvel 15" - 19" lcd sets up against the mask ---would anyone but a television collector know the difference??? Hells bells I think I could set one of those $ 69 Philco branded vhs/dvd palyers from Target on top of the beast and most people would believe they were made to go together!!!

Hi Glenn,
Looks like you have a nice project. Take your time, be careful and ask questions. The people here helped me in many steps..and my first TV resto a 1953 B&W now works thanks to all here. You will enjoy the challenge and love watching the nostalgia on TV. Brings back time and memories.

For grins, last night I powered up (on a variac) an early 50s 16 inch Philco that had not been turned on in over 20 years.


You just reminded me: I think I'll power up my Philco 51T-1634.... Just for grins.:D

http://myweb.msoe.edu/williamstm/Philco_Tetris2.wmv



http://myweb.msoe.edu/williamstm/Images/Philco_1.jpg

BTW, JR: if you intend to repair that Philco, do yourself a favor and replace every single cap in it. Even the Micamold caps aren't OK, some of them were PIO when I cracked them open!

Seems like there has been a thead before where it was mentioned that there were two types of 'Micamold' caps. One type, if I remember correctly, was paper inside the dotted case, which would be basically a fake, and of course being a paper wound cap would be one to replace. The actual "Micamold" caps are supposedly more like ceramics, you can leave them alone in most cases. There is a visual way to tell the difference. I wish I could remember.......help!

Perhaps someone else who remembers this thread can make sure my version is correct, and we can refresh the subject for newer people.

Seems like there has been a thead before where it was mentioned that there were two types of 'Micamold' caps. One type, if I remember correctly, was paper inside the dotted case, which would be basically a fake, and of course being a paper wound cap would be one to replace. The actual "Micamold" caps are supposedly more like ceramics, you can leave them alone in most cases. There is a visual way to tell the difference. I wish I could remember.......help!

Perhaps someone else who remembers this thread can make sure my version is correct, and we can refresh the subject for newer people.

Perhaps this will help. I posted this figure from an old ARRL handbook in my 7VT2 restoration thread (http://www.videokarma.org/showthread.php?t=228145).

It shows that true mica have a black dot while paper have a silver dot in the upper left corner.

http://www.bobandersen.com/images/7VT2%20restoration/16-01%20mica.jpg

FYI I had long ago in the past restored a Westinghouse 21" table model that had been in a flooded cellar for what may have been years. It was thick with mud all over the chassis. I hosed the darn thing out, left it in the sun to dry, and fired it up after re-inserting all of the tubes and applying tuner-lube to sockets and all of the controls. The set worked perfectly for two years before the selenium rectifiers let go, and stank us out.

But that was neglect. What you have there may have involved "tinker-bobs"--which can make for a troubleshooting nightmare.

Thanks Bandersen for the visual. Perfect!