View Full Version : A Little Flat Tube Fun


jr_tech
10-23-2009, 10:44 PM
Since the demise of most over-the-air analog TV broadcasting, little pocket TVs have been hitting the thrift stores, eBay and CL in droves. Now, I don't have much interest in LC sets, but the little CRT monochrome sets have some appeal to me, in particular, the Sony "watchman" series, with the "flat" CRT.

These little Sony Watchman TVs used what was likely the only design of a "flat" conventional Cathode Ray Tube that met with any commercial success. The design of the tube is really quite interesting. As early as the 50s a couple of designs for "flat" CRTs were promoted...The Akin tube and the Gabor tube promised a "hang on your wall" TV, but, as far as I know no commercial sets were produced. Sinclair poked at a design in the late 70s, but Sony Beat them to the punch by introducing a flat tube set in 1982. These sets worked well and sold well! I think that at 10 bucks or so they are quite collectible.:yes:

Picture #1 is one of my recent finds, an FD-20A. Out of the box these usually work just fine!

Peering *into* a window to view an image is somewhat reminiscent of the viewing experience of the Philco "Safari" ... Picture #2.

I know of two different designs (and several sizes) of the Sony "flat" CRT. On the left is the most common which uses a curved screen and a magnetic deflection (8-735-950-). The CRT on the right (an earlier design) uses a flat screen and a mix of magnetic and electrostatic deflection (8-733-651-23)... Picture #3.

As might be expected, by projecting the electron beam onto the phosphor surface at odd angles, the geometry of the display is somewhat compromised... Picture #4.

I have an FD-40A (4 " curved phosphor screen) on it's way from an eBay seller, will post pictures if it works.

jr

kx250rider
10-24-2009, 12:14 PM
I have an FD-210; the first one with the 1.5" tube... Nice little set. I bought one new in '81, and lost it in a burglary in the late 80s. I got lucky on eBay a year or so ago, and got this one as-new in the box. The other one I'd like to have, is the Watchcam. It was a really nice kit, which came in a hard case, and had the 4" curved screen monitor (no tuner), and a tiny B&W tube camera. That was about 1985, and I've only ever seen one. I don't think they sold many of them. It was a really primitive "video baby monitor" or spy cam.

Charles

jr_tech
10-24-2009, 05:15 PM
kx250rider... Did the FD210 use the flat or the curved screen version of the tube?

I have posted a few more pictures of the tubes, perhaps showing the screen and construction differences more clearly.... Picture #1 and #2.

Also a comparison to the Telefunken D5-100V, used in a Sinclair portable. The D5 is an all electrostatic deflection CRT (honey, I shrunk the 7JP4!). Pictures #3 and #4.

Also, I apologize... I should have posted this thread on the "Rectangular Tube and Solid State" Forum... I thought it was color only.

jr

bgadow
10-24-2009, 11:04 PM
I'd wondered what those tubes looked like! Well worth that price, I'd say.

I have a service manual for the Zenith version of one of these, don't know the model without looking. If anyone wants it let me know.

jeyurkon
10-24-2009, 11:40 PM
We used to use 9 track tape drives to store data from our experiments. There were a few occasions where the software said the data was being written to tape when in fact the drives were doing nothing. There's is a limited amount of beam time given to each experiment so this was serious.

Their solution was to put a TV camera on each tape drive and they used a Sony flat tube walkman type monitor to watch the drive.

John

jr_tech
10-25-2009, 01:09 AM
Sounds like an unusual application that Sony probably never thought of.... MIBL? NSCL? :scratch2:

jr

kx250rider
10-25-2009, 11:08 AM
I'd wondered what those tubes looked like! Well worth that price, I'd say.

I have a service manual for the Zenith version of one of these, don't know the model without looking. If anyone wants it let me know.

Magnavox had one, and I think I've seen a J.C. Penney housebrand one too.

kx250rider... Did the FD210 use the flat or the curved screen version of the tube?


jr

I think this one is flat. It's also the smallest one I know of, at slightly under 2" diagonal. (I said 1.5" earlier; mistook it for the Panasonic pocket sets with the 1.5" standard tube)

Charles

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/kx250racer/SonyFD210LollypoptubeTV.jpg

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m174/kx250racer/SonyFD210sideview.jpg

jr_tech
10-25-2009, 02:27 PM
kx250rider...Cool, that is indeed a flat phosphor screen! I must watch for a 210, since it appears to be the first, it would seem to be the most collectible. There is one on eBay right now, but it has a missing (or broken) volume control knob. Wiki says 1982 for this model... did you perhaps buy your first one in Japan earlier?

Even with the Zenith and Magnavox models added in, I suspect that a collection of ALL the the models of Flat CRT TVs could fit into a shoe box :yes:

Some of the "monitor" versions have appeared on eBay*, but the BIN price is above the 10 bucks (or so) that I like to pay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/SONY-WatchCam-EyeWitness-FDM-402A-CCD-B-W-Monitor-CCTV_W0QQitemZ120478356292QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_De faultDomain_0?hash=item1c0d11d344

* not affiliated, etc.

jr

compucat
10-25-2009, 04:13 PM
I have a mint FD-40A that uses the flat tube. It works great but the screen geometry is not perfect as is to be expected on these tubes. It is still a remarkable achievement considering it was the 1980s. When LCD became practical and in color, there was no real market for black and white sets with these tubes.

jeyurkon
10-25-2009, 07:54 PM
Sounds like an unusual application that Sony probably never thought of.... MIBL? NSCL? :scratch2:

jr

NSCL. I had to look up Michigan Ion Beam Laboratory. I thought you were making a joke like "Men In Black Laboratory." Wish there was one, I'd apply. :D

John

jr_tech
10-25-2009, 10:11 PM
I thought you were making a joke like "Men In Black Laboratory." Wish there was one, I'd apply. :D

John

Indeed, that sounds like it would be a cool place to work!:thmbsp:

jr

kx250rider
10-26-2009, 10:25 AM
kx250rider...Cool, that is indeed a flat phosphor screen! I must watch for a 210, since it appears to be the first, it would seem to be the most collectible. There is one on eBay right now, but it has a missing (or broken) volume control knob. Wiki says 1982 for this model... did you perhaps buy your first one in Japan earlier?



I got it at Christmas of '81, so it probably was a 1982 model year. The one I have now was made in Feb '82. The owners manual is copyright '80, so likely as you point out, it was available in other countries prior to here.

Charles

jr_tech
10-26-2009, 03:50 PM
I have a mint FD-40A that uses the flat tube. It works great but the screen geometry is not perfect as is to be expected on these tubes. It is still a remarkable achievement considering it was the 1980s. When LCD became practical and in color, there was no real market for black and white sets with these tubes.

Yes, It appears that it was a pretty short run... This website states that the last tube Sony Watchman was the FD-280 in 1990. I suspect that perhaps the "monitors" were sold for a bit longer, but don't really know.

http://www.taschenfernseher.de/e-history.htm

Picture 1 is the odd shaped FD-280 from that link.

jr

crtfool
10-26-2009, 04:43 PM
Nice pictures of the CRTs jr tech - I did not know that the FD-210 CRT was electrostatic deflection - very ingenious how they can get a picture on a flat screen like that. I never liked the models with the curved screen - the distortion bothered my eyes. I picked up an FD-210 in excellent condition on eBay for $37 2 years ago.

Dave A
10-26-2009, 08:25 PM
Got a FD-20A NIB a few weeks ago. Gee, I forgot that analog went away but it still picks up cable leakage around the house. Geometry is about as good as my geometry grades in school.

At least it has a 1/8" video input. The 4" Zenith set is in residence also.

What a very short lived piece of history.

bgadow
11-21-2009, 11:14 PM
It may be that I had never seen one of these flat-tube sets in person. And then: a week ago I got a visit from a friend who volunteers with her husband at a thrift store. Periodically they will stop by with a box of stuff that came in the donation box but was not considered saleable. The most recent box included a Kmart table radio, an 80s Ford car radio, an old United electric clock...and guess what? An FD-10A. The batteries were pretty old and leaky-after a cleaning and new cells it worked great!

Now, today there were a lot of yard sales and at one (fundraiser at a fire company) a vendor had an FD-40A. He was trying to clear his inventory so it cost me $1. Not as nice a shape as the free one, but decent enough and it also works! The tuning string slips so I couldn't quite bring in a picture.

I was hoping these portables would start showing up cheap...I wonder what kinda color sets my start showing up? Should be an Indextron out there...

kx250rider
11-22-2009, 12:23 PM
I wonder what kinda color sets my start showing up? Should be an Indextron out there...

eBay is flooded with lollypop tube B&W sets, even new in the box. Right now, there is at least one each of the Magnavox and Zenith versions of the FD Watchman, as well as a plethora of Sonys including a few new-in-box.

As for the color sets, suddenly I stopped seeing the 5" early Trinitrons. It seems like the bulk of those went on eBay a few months before the switchover. I am seeing more 8" & 9" Trinitrons from the 90s, and a bunch of later model cheap LCD color pocket sets. I have picked up three of the Sony FDL-310 color LCD Watchman sets; the first Sony flat LCD color set. Amazingly, those are sleepers! I paid below $40 for a new-in-box one, and $.99 for a working but scratched up one. I probably will try to get the rest of the color Sony Watchman series. I do have the FDT-5BX5, which is a Sony rebadged cheapie 5" CRT color set, which for some sad reason, is underservingly named Watchman. It's not even a Trinitron tube copy. Just a cheap Chinese tube.

Charles

julianburke
11-22-2009, 03:29 PM
I have a few Zeniths that were built as monitors that were used in police cars for the dash cameras. No tuners, just an RCA plug for composite video.

jr_tech
12-03-2009, 07:37 PM
I have found a few more of these TVs recently... I think that I have a sample of all of the CRTs used in these sets.

04JM... nearly 4" diag. curved phosphor screen.
03JM... slightly over 2.5" diag. curved phosphor screen.
02JM... nearly 2" diag. curved phosphor screen.
ED15... nearly 2" diag. flat phosphor screen.

Pictures attached. Anybody know of other screen sizes/designs?

jr

wa2ise
12-03-2009, 08:16 PM
Back around 1980, RCA was kicking around the idea of building color CRTs shaped like these, http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=165284&d=1256351976 but about 20 inch diagonal screen size. Saw a demo prototype mock-up of such a tube in a TV cabinet, but never saw one working. Advantage would be a shallow cabinet. It never saw production. Convergence would be fun...

amptramp
12-03-2009, 08:39 PM
I picked up a nice Sony FD-10A a couple of years ago at a garage sale for $3. It has the curved tube and works perfectly.

What might be interesting is to build a TV around the CRT's used in camcorders. They were smaller screens (some less than 1") and could probably be used for oscilloscopes as well. It should have all the HV and deflection circuitry, so most of the job is done.

Maybe we should have a contest: the best TV or oscilloscope or panadaptor or any other design of a useful product using these small tubes.

bgadow
12-03-2009, 10:04 PM
RCA ran a great ad in the "trades" back around 1970 or so. It was for their components business and had a tagline of something like "if you can dream it up, we can sell you the parts to build it". It shows a mock-up of a CTC-53 style set, but flat. Gotta dig that out and scan it someday.

crtfool
12-04-2009, 12:09 AM
What might be interesting is to build a TV around the CRT's used in camcorders. They were smaller screens (some less than 1") and could probably be used for oscilloscopes as well. It should have all the HV and deflection circuitry, so most of the job is done.

Maybe we should have a contest: the best TV or oscilloscope or panadaptor or any other design of a useful product using these small tubes.


Most camcorder EVFs are completely self contained video monitors - all you have to do is feed them either 5vdc or 12vdc and a composite video signal and you are all set. I built several of these, and have a lot more in my collection to complete someday. I used to buy junked video cameras and camcorders from local electronics junk stores, but now those stores are all gone, so I get my EVF modules from eBay. My favorite EVF comes off old Magnavox VR8276BK01 Color Newvicon Video Cameras because they are completely self contained and detachable with a built-in factory cable and connector. The only thing that they do not have is audio capability.

jr_tech
12-04-2009, 12:22 AM
crtfool...I have to ask... what is the little tube on your avatar? 2" color Panasonic ??

jr

crtfool
12-04-2009, 12:37 AM
crtfool...I have to ask... what is the little tube on your avatar? 2" color Panasonic ??

jr

It is a 1/2 inch B&W EVF CRT Assy - a very popular camcorder tube.

As far as I know, the smallest standard color CRT is the 1.5" tube that Panasonic made and used in the CT-101. I have not yet found a video camera with a standard color CRT EVF. RCA made an EVF with a 1.5" color BEAM INDEX CRT, I have several of these units.

jr_tech
12-04-2009, 01:08 AM
Nice!:thmbsp: I guess that I will have to look for one of those.

As far as the "contest" goes I think that Panasonic is the leader right now with this 1982 1" set (shown next to a D 5-100 W tube from a Sinclair portable). I once saw one of these installed in a dollhouse... The tube face was inside one of those "TV" salt & pepper shakers, with the end passing through a hole in the wall to an adjacent room where the circuit board was placed...very cute!

Pardon the condition of the Panasonic... it was my "rooftop" set for many years, and it once took a slide down a tile roof to land on a concrete sidewalk about 10 feet below...ouch!

jr

crtfool
12-04-2009, 01:17 AM
Your TV is a TR-1010p - I have all of the Panasonic mini CRT sets except the TR-001 - I have the TR-1000p, TR-1010p, TR-1020P, TR-1030p, TR-1031p and the CT-101 color unit.

I collect all kinds of mini TV sets - CRT and LCD, and I am fascinated by the micro camcorder CRTs. I would love to get 1 of those Sinclair CRTs - I never bought 1 of those TVs, but I used to look at them in the store windows years ago - I preferred the Panasonic models over the Sinclair, they looked modern compared to Sinclair's old style design.

I think that amptramp wants to actually build a TV set out of these micro EVF CRT units.

kx250rider
12-04-2009, 10:50 AM
I remember seeing a much larger display mounted in Los Angeles police cars in the 1980s. I don't know if it was a lollipop tube, or if it was a reflective system like a Philco Safari. They were used as "MDT" units; the first onboard communications computers for the LAPD. They might have been 8 or 10 inch viewable screens. Definitely not a standard CRT, and not any type of LED or LCD.

Any police officers on AK who might know, or who might remember more details about those 1980s MDTs?

Charles

jr_tech
12-04-2009, 12:44 PM
I remember seeing a much larger display mounted in Los Angeles police cars in the 1980s. I don't know if it was a lollipop tube, or if it was a reflective system like a Philco Safari. They were used as "MDT" units; the first onboard communications computers for the LAPD. They might have been 8 or 10 inch viewable screens. Definitely not a standard CRT, and not any type of LED or LCD.

Any police officers on AK who might know, or who might remember more details about those 1980s MDTs?

Charles

An early entry into the field of flat displays for medical and government applications (read expensive) was a 1980s Tektronix spin-off called Planar. These displays were based on EL technology and IIRC, produced a yellowish monochrome display.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planar_Systems

jr

kx250rider
12-05-2009, 10:42 AM
An early entry into the field of flat displays for medical and government applications (read expensive) was a 1980s Tektronix spin-off called Planar. These displays were based on EL technology and IIRC, produced a yellowish monochrome display.

Interesting... However, I remember gawking at one of those MDTs and thinking it was a CRT. I remember it having a bluish tint as a B&W tube. Also, if the Planar displays were expensive, that might answer it right there.... The Los Angeles Police Dept. has been broke for decades, and they usually hold off any spending. They were still using 1973 Plymouths into the 1990s, and today still are driving some Chevy Caprice and Ford LTD cars that are over 20 years old. :thumbsdn: . But hats off to them... They're doing a great job with what little they can scrounge up.

Charles

crtfool
12-23-2009, 03:23 PM
BUMP!

Sorry for the bump, but I would like to ask if anyone has an EXTRA CRT from a Sinclair TV lying around - I would love to add 1 of them to my collection. Thanks.

jr_tech
12-23-2009, 09:49 PM
I spotted a NON-Working Sinclair TV on eBay several days ago that I thought might be a good tube donor... but the darn thing is over 100 bucks now, with more than 3 days left on the auction...Yikes!!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Sinclair-Microvision-vintage-miniature-television_W0QQitemZ320464128622QQcmdZViewItemQQpt ZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a9d268a6e

jr

crtfool
12-23-2009, 10:05 PM
Yeah - I have been watching auctions on eBay for a while, but they get too expensive for a unit just to pull a tube out of. I really do not want a complete set anyway. I thought that if someone has an extra 1 lying around, we could work something out.

The first time I actually saw what the tube looks like was when you posted a picture earlier in this thread - very interesting and even cool looking design compared to most CRTs that I have seen - I do not know if this is so different because it was designed in another country, or if it has any technical benefits.

jr_tech
12-23-2009, 10:25 PM
I suspect that the small magnetic deflected tubes actually offer better performance. But the "fat neck" to provide room for the deflection plates and the curved screen, which likely reduces deflection defocus make this tube very unique. Do you have a 913? I see them once in a while on eBay.

http://uv201.com/Tube_Pages/rca_913_crt.htm

jr

crtfool
12-23-2009, 10:33 PM
I have never seen 1 of these tubes - I am going to add it to my wish list!

Carmine
12-24-2009, 12:21 AM
I found this on the same site under CRTs and Camera tubes. (Don't know how to link to the exact page, but here's the picture)

http://uv201.com/Tube_Pages/Tube_Images/CRT/crt_1.jpg

1964!

jr_tech
12-24-2009, 01:43 AM
Cool find! This is a refinement of the Aken tube from the 50s... I believe that work continued through the mid 60s and even a color versions were attempted using various approaches.

jr

jeyurkon
12-24-2009, 12:02 PM
For some reason I can't see the picture. But I can if I go directly to the link.

John

amptramp
12-24-2009, 06:18 PM
I suspect that the small magnetic deflected tubes actually offer better performance. But the "fat neck" to provide room for the deflection plates and the curved screen, which likely reduces deflection defocus make this tube very unique. Do you have a 913? I see them once in a while on eBay.

http://uv201.com/Tube_Pages/rca_913_crt.htm

jr

They were used on the RCA Type 151 oscilloscope. A picture of it, both outside and inside, is here:

http://www.myvintagetv.com/vintage_test_equipment.htm

along with the ad for it:

http://www.myvintagetv.com/oscilloscopes/rca_151_adv.jpg

I have two of these scopes.

Carmine
12-25-2009, 10:21 AM
For some reason I can't see the picture. But I can if I go directly to the link.

John

It disappeared from my browser too. I think some people get "funny" about having pictures on message boards etc. That's fine, but then at least design our site so it can be directly linked!

jr_tech
12-25-2009, 12:49 PM
Test... Can we see these?

Added comment...Funny! now that I have downloaded and stored these pix, I can *again* see the pix in the original post, so I guess my browser stores them and supplies them as needed in the first post? :scratch2:

jr

jeyurkon
12-25-2009, 02:01 PM
Test... Can we see these?

They display fine.

John

zenithfan1
09-06-2012, 01:17 AM
Yes, It appears that it was a pretty short run... This website states that the last tube Sony Watchman was the FD-280 in 1990. I suspect that perhaps the "monitors" were sold for a bit longer, but don't really know.

http://www.taschenfernseher.de/e-history.htm

Picture 1 is the odd shaped FD-280 from that link.

jr

They went until at least 1992, I have the same model from that year:yes:
(old thread but a fun one:D)

jr_tech
09-08-2012, 08:42 PM
Some recent additions to my small TV collection:

1. "sports" versions... CW from 8:00; Green Bay Packers FD-2A, Tampa Bay Buccaneers FD-30A, San Francisco 49ERS FD-30A (the 30As have a decent AM/FM radio built in), LA Raders FD-20A. There are many more Football teams, as well as Baseball teams... I don't intend to collect them all. :D

2. 2.6 inch models... Continuing CW from 2:00; FD-230 (thick set), FD-270 (nice, thin set) and the weird palm-grip FD-280.

3. Red white and blue FD-10 series... I don't have the white yet.

4. Odd Digital Clock TV/FM FD-3A. Clock is not functional on this sample, so I can't tell if it can be used as an alarm clock radio/TV... anybody here know for sure?

jr

crtfool
09-08-2012, 08:53 PM
There should be a separate battery to operate the clock on the FD-3A.

jr_tech
09-08-2012, 10:27 PM
There should be a separate battery to operate the clock on the FD-3A.

Yes! I just got the contacts cleaned up enough to get the clock working, but all that I can get the alarm to do is beep (fairly faint and high pitched). I don't see a mode for clock-radio (or TV) operation.

jr

crtfool
09-08-2012, 10:37 PM
It's probably just a convenience clock - not meant for TV / Radio operation.

jr_tech
09-09-2012, 02:00 PM
A fairly recent find. It is identical in layout and control functions to the Sony FD-40A, but differs slightly cosmetically. It is not "made in Japan", but is labeled:
Zenith Electronics Corp. Glenview Illinois 60025 U.S.A.
Assembled in Mexico

It is a decent performer, similar to the Sony-made products. Model # BT044S, assembled Nov. 1985.
jr

AiboPet
09-09-2012, 06:28 PM
COOL!

Saw one of those on the ebay about a month ago....but it had a VERY odd "cone" shaped raster. I was a bit afraid of it because it was obviously a horizontal problem...but with the added festivities of working with that right angle geometry. It was small at the top and bigger at the bottom. My guess was it would have been an EXTREME simple width problem on a regular CRT....but was showing as a trapezoid.

There must be some really weird custom horizontal treatment in these.....like a trapezoidal raster custom to look square on these tubes. I have NEVER had to work on one of these beyond the usual little turning of pots. I think one of the pots in the 42A even messes with trimming this trapezoid geometry. My pink 42A was perfect...but I did open it and mess with it just for fun (It's of course back to normal again)

Sandy G
09-09-2012, 06:36 PM
I have a 4" one of these things, mine is branded "Magnavox", however. Pretty decent picture, all in all.

AiboPet
09-09-2012, 07:23 PM
They are neat Sandy.....Just don't ever put a crosshatch on one. You will then FOREVER know these are FAR from perfect. Still a marvel that they even CAN do this geometry trick and pull these off. I use my little Sony 10A in the front room quite regularly to just check that my "in house" station and the little Archos media player are still up and doing okay. I really only need a couple examples of this "paddle" CRT...so I only have a 2A, 10A and the pink 42A. I may sometime go looking for one of the "electrostatic" ones (230?)...so I'll then have the "real" flat example.

I do NOT yet know what the term "electrostatic' means in a CRT....for everything I have is just electromagnetic with yokes. I had NEVER heard of electrostatic until I went through that BIG long thread on the different small screens.

crtfool
09-09-2012, 07:29 PM
I had 1 of those 2" Watchman models with the slopy screens - drove me crazy, and that was without knowing what a crosshatch looked like. The only model that I now have, and like, is the original FD-210 with the true flat screen.

AiboPet
09-09-2012, 07:42 PM
The little Sony 10A is one of those "slopy" (and "sloppy") 2" Watchman sets. I thought something wasn't quite right with it.....and then put a crosshatch on my little media player/transmitter to see what was up. Luckily....I ran into the thread here about these having odd geometry before tearing into it thinking it was supposed to be perfect.

My first thought when I saw the problem was "Oh jeese...It's a SONY, so OF COURSE it's supposed to be perfect...and this one is broke".

Now.....I realize it's meant to be a small portable set, and nobody really should be watching these and being critical with the picture. I still find it amazing they can accomplish a (relatively) square picture that IS focused both top and bottom with the phosphors at that angle. This "magic" makes me afraid to really work on one, since I don't see anything to read on how they accomplish the trapezoidal raster....and focus being (again..relatively) sharp both close AND far from the gun.

jr_tech
09-09-2012, 08:15 PM
Here is a "2 inch" Magnavox labeled "ESCORT 2" Model BF3900BK01. It was "Made in Japan" in March 1985 and closely resembles the Sony FD-20A. It lacks the "video input" jack, but otherwise controls and jacks are in the same locations as on the Sony.
Sandy... Is the "4 inch" Magnavox labeled "ESCORT 4" perhaps?

jr

Sandy G
09-09-2012, 09:22 PM
Here is a "2 inch" Magnavox labeled "ESCORT 2" Model BF3900BK01. It was "Made in Japan" in March 1985 and closely resembles the Sony FD-20A. It lacks the "video input" jack, but otherwise controls and jacks are in the same locations as on the Sony.
Sandy... Is the "4 inch" Magnavox labeled "ESCORT 4" perhaps?

jr

Aye-yup...Terry gave it to me, for being such a NICE customer, I guess...Mine HAS the video jack "A/V in", as well as a 6VDC input. It has the Knoxville, Tenn address for "North American Philips Consumer Electronics Co." & a May, 1985 build date. Kinda hefty l'il beastie when loaded up w/4 "C" batteries.

Username1
09-11-2012, 03:47 PM
Collecting sets that size you guys could easily have 50 of 'em and keep the entire collection on one shelf in a closet.......

In one of the pictures posted there are 4 tubes of different sizes, Jr_tech, it was your picture, front and back of the 4 size screens. I was wondering can you re post those pictures with indications of where the HV lead goes? and those of you with working sets, what is the HV voltage? Also wondering since the screen does not need to be transparent, is the screen energized with the HV? can you tell by looking?

And if you just want to get a flat tube, there is some guy on ebay trying to sell them for just a few bucks... $14. I think.... I've seen them a few times...

Sandy G
09-11-2012, 04:00 PM
I scored a Sony 2" at a pawnshop once for $20 or so, & it even worked...It was the "Basic/basic/basic" model-No antenna or power inputs, no contrast, just channel-UHF/VHF switch, rotary knobs for tuning & volume. L'il sucker DID have a pretty decent picture, & could pull in stations pretty good.

jr_tech
09-11-2012, 04:46 PM
@Username1....

The HV connection point can best be seen on the picture of the back of the tubes:

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=165758&d=1259886996

On the 4" and 2" CRTs the connection is on the right side of the funnel flare and in both cases located almost directly above the center of the deflection yoke. You should be able to see the HV button easily on the 4" tube, but it is more difficult to see on the 2" version.

On the 2.7 " tube, there is no funnel HV connection. Pin 1 of the CRT is somewhat isolated, and used for that purpose. Pin 1 is on the left side of the tube in the photo and if you look closely, you can see a small patch of white (rtv?) material used to provide insulation around the pin.

On the early 2" tube (ED-15), a black three pin connector juts out of the left side of the tube in the funnel flare region, providing connection for the 2 deflection plates and HV.

I'm guessing that HV was on the order of 1.5Kv on the smaller tubes and perhaps 3kv or so on the 4" tube, but this is only a WAG. The screens appear to be connected to the HV.

jr

Username1
09-11-2012, 05:15 PM
I would agree with your guess of around 1500 - 3000V from what I have seen on 3" tv's. I was interested to see if they did the HV button on the side of the tube like the big ones.

now I kinda want one....

Thanks jr.

Sandy G
09-11-2012, 05:45 PM
The little shittin' things DO have a way of "Growing" on ya...(grin)

jr_tech
09-11-2012, 06:45 PM
now I kinda want one....


This is a good time to get 'em. They can be found in abundance on eBay, they usually are cheap, and they usually work. They are unusual in design, which IMHO, makes them collectible.

Betcha you can't collect just one! :)

jr

Electronic M
09-11-2012, 07:39 PM
I've got three. Two silver FD-40As:Both work one is in great shape with carrying case, but needs to have it's yoke rotated a few degrees, the other is beat to heck but is electronically fine(go figure).

I also have a blue FD-20A which has static audio, but NO raster...If i knew more about SS stuff I might have bothered to pop it open, but I'm worried that it will become one of my "Dixie cup" projects if I try to fix it.

AiboPet
09-11-2012, 08:34 PM
Like my poor little Panasonic TR-1010 I had since like 1984 or so... She now rests in peace (pieces) in a metal mooncakes tin :tears:

At least I'm waiting on a TR-1020 with a broken antenna and missing it's magnifier and wall wart. I can easily use the 1010's corpse to fill in those gaps...so it isn't ALL lost (always wanted a 1020 with the FM).

jr_tech
09-12-2012, 01:58 PM
Will the magnifier fit? I know that a1010 and 1030 magnifier are slightly different, I have never had a 1020.

jr

AiboPet
09-12-2012, 03:14 PM
Dunno that....but since I do have a 1030 (and it's magnifier) and it's a completely different case, I'm going to (likely wrongly) assume the 1010 and 1020 are the same item. These two cabinets do look the same.....and I got the 1020 in "unknown" hence REAL cheap condition. I may still end up looking for a battery cover for the 1020. It has the little black rechargeable pack...and I have the 1010's cover, but the 1020's cover appears to be a different orientation. LOOKS the same...but very unlikely.

I sorta just bid on the 1020 and ended up winning it for like ten bucks. I think the description and pics showing the missing antenna and battery cover scared most off....and the fact it has no (proprietary) wall wart and was untested. I have all the parts to at least replace the obvious missing items....even if it ends up just taking the EMPTY space on the shelf where the 1010 was. I don't like sets that DON'T work up on the "display" shelves if I can help it. It dilutes the effect of hitting a single X10 remote control switch and seeing them ALL come on at once :-P

AiboPet
09-15-2012, 06:58 PM
Okay....GOT the little Panasonic 1020 I was waiting for.

Antenna...same as 1010
"Wall wart"...same as all three of the little b/w "10xx" sets

Magnifier....NO. 1010's CRT is to the extreme left, 1020 is to the left but is maybe 1/4" further from the left side. The magnifier will slide on, and look fine, but does not center. The 1030's magnifier is black....and 1030's CRT is front and center. So all those magnifiers ARE different.

Battery covers on all three 10xx sets....are different, even though 1010 and 1020 use the same shape battery pack.

The little 1020 I got for just over ten bucks does run and look perfectly though. It just sorta has to stay on a shelf without it's battery cover, and it can't show with the magnifier since it will not really do it's job. I'll hafta still find either a dead 1020 with a decent battery cover and magnifier....or a working 1010 that may be missing some cabinet parts. DOES have a nice bright clear little picture...so the hard part is done. I guess I should at some point get my CT101 back down to San Diego from LA so I have all the little Panny micros together.

zenithfan1
09-16-2012, 12:38 AM
I've always wanted a CT-101 (and 100:rolleyes:) Anyways they are always too expensive. It would be great to find one at a rummage sale or estate sale. Good luck on getting your Micro-Panny collection together, sounds like it's coming along:yes:

Sandy G
09-16-2012, 07:57 AM
I have 2 CT-101s, they work well, one I've owned from new. When I ordered it from the local hardware store, I got Fish-Eyes big time-"For THAT amount of money, we could gitchoo a REAL TV-19" at least"...Biggest problem w/'em is the cheap-shyte cabinets-To save weight-And MONEY-they were VERY flimsy, & would break under even moderate wear & tear.They have at least 2X the amount of "Guts" as one of their B/W brothers do, you can almost make the color go in & out by pressing too hard on certain points, or "Torquing" it slightly.

AiboPet
09-16-2012, 08:47 AM
Yup Sandy...My 101 is like that. I did indeed find it at a swap meet maybe ten years ago. They didn't even know it was color...and I got it for like 20 bucks just thinking it would be something fun to play with....and put next to my little 1010 I'd had since new.

I had no "collection" to speak of really....and since you COULD still watch OTA stuff at the time, everyone just called these "old"....not "vintage" or collectable.

101's chassis is just WAY too sensitive....and this one is a great example of big gaps and stuff. Mine, the sound will go out if you squeeze it.....and I've always been afraid to go inside of this one. It's up in LA sitting next to a Sony "Mega" watchman I want to get back down to San Diego with the rest of my TV stuff I had at my dad's.

Sandy G
09-16-2012, 09:22 AM
The good thing about the "Teeny,Tiny" Panasonics is that most of 'em WORK, even if the cosmetics aren't great. I'd imagine a lot of 'em never saw much use, they're really too small to watch for any extended period of time. Broken antennas, broken batt box slide covers seem to be usual problems w/'em...

AiboPet
09-16-2012, 03:35 PM
Found a black Sony 42A at the swap meet today. The guy only wanted five bucks for it because he was honest and said he remembered it one day just had no picture at all. I brought it home and it's pretty clean as far as the cabinet.....does come on...tuning and sound, but appears to have no HV. Couldn't even get any excitement from JAMMING a finger on the PC board under the little silver HV module (which woulda been quite festive if there WAS any HV).

Figured it was worth the five bucks just for fun....or the perfect antenna, or what is likely a perfect little 4" paddle CRT.

Also scored a little color 5" Magnavox thing for SIX bucks with no wall wart. This is the little Maggie with the built in handle and the torqoise blue power button. Cute little chassis, but nothing exciting really. This one turned out to come on and look flawless, so now have one of those. I have one of these that I could never bring to life...so THAT one is in a shoebox. I got this one to maybe put one together that was working if it needed a CRT or something. Turns out it works perfectly and looks great already...even it's A/V inputs.

crtfool
09-16-2012, 04:25 PM
I have a Magnavox RD0510 that used to work, but will not power up at all - can't figure out what is wrong with it. Is this the same model number as your dead unit?

AiboPet
09-16-2012, 07:03 PM
Yup...RD0510 with a build date of June 1992

The one that is dead (was an ebay thing "for parts"...that I gambled on just for fun)...is also an RD0510 with a build of April of '93

I was just looking at the junked one...and looks like at some point I stole it's speaker and antenna to likely rescue something else. I don't have a CRT checker...so I can only assume it's CRT is likely still fine.

Also.....I was about to PULL the little HV module off that Sony 42A.....and suddenly noticed a crack in the board just under it. Jumped two traces and that little $5 Sony is up and running again :-)

The RD0510 that does not come up makes a very faint horizontal output squeel for about a half second when you first bring it up......but I have no schematics for it. I just looked for some very obvious things like weird looking caps and breaks, then I set it aside since it was "cute"...but not really that exciting. I kept it around just in case something else was gonna need a 5" Samsung 15CAC66X color tube (like maybe my JVC CX-500 someday)

Now since I have one of these that runs....I don't really think it's gonna be in my "display"..but rather just a color set I can use to fix a VCR,DVD player or something. It does have A/V rca inputs. Iit's QUITE portable...but does not have a battery box. Does seem to have a respectable picture though that can handle a good B/W I Love Lucy episode without any real tinting.

crtfool
09-16-2012, 07:09 PM
I checked every component on my RD0510 - nothing looks or tests bad, but this thing just will not come to life. I do have some voltages on the boards, but no schematic available.

Sandy G
09-16-2012, 08:31 PM
I have one of those little 5" Maggie color sets-Somewhere along the line, mine got a NASTY scratch across the screen...Grrrrr...I live about 35 miles away from Greeneville, where their plant & factory store are. IIRC, I got it there for little or nothin'.

yrly
09-17-2012, 12:11 AM
Anyone else got the Sony clock radio that had the built in TV? I forget the model. Bought it when Sun TV was closing for like $30 in 1996ish, used to use it to fall asleep to.

rpm1200
10-05-2012, 12:51 AM
At work there is an Aiphone video intercom system which uses Sony Watchman "lollipop"-style CRTs. I would guess it's from the late 90s or early 2000s, so the CRTs must have been manufactured until recently.

rpm1200
10-05-2012, 01:12 AM
At work there is an Aiphone video intercom system which uses Sony Watchman "lollipop"-style CRTs. I would guess it's from the late 90s or early 2000s, so the CRTs must have been manufactured until recently.

That got me searching, looks like anyone can get an Aiphone "tenant monitor" for $30 BIN + somewhat overpriced shipping from our favorite internet auction site, looks like the same type of 4" monochrome "lollipop" CRT: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AIPHONE-MB-VBU-TENANT-VIDEO-MONITOR-WORKS-PERFECTLY-/170917021780?pt=Intercoms_Access_Controls&hash=item27cb72c854

Also found this PDF which explains how they are to be connected: http://www.aiphone.com/data/pdf/products/discontinued/VB%20Multi-Tenant%20Video%20Instr.pdf

Another manual, looks like it was published in 1997: http://www.aiphone.com/data/pdf/products/discontinued/MK-1MD%20Instr.pdf

Cool Flickr set with this tube: http://www.flickr.com/photos/cmacd123/sets/72157629697285603/with/6881694660/

jr_tech
10-05-2012, 02:20 AM
Wow! I have never seen those before !
Did some checking and found one of the clock radios on the 'Bay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Sony-Watchman-MINI-TV-CLOCK-RADIO-/280987145438?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item416c2394de
Wonder why it is so deep?
Not affiliated,
jr

kvflyer
10-05-2012, 10:03 AM
I have too many of these little sets, most of which work regardless of condition (except the Panasonics :tears:). I guess Sony knew their stuff.

Please don't show me more. I have very little resistance to hitting the BIN button...

crtfool
10-05-2012, 10:20 AM
Sony also had issues with capacitors over the years. The CRT Watchman TVs generally worked well, but their LCD Watchman sets have major capacitor issues - FDL-310, FDL-320, FDL-370, FDL-380, FDL-3500 all die from bad SMT Can Caps. I have several of these models, and they are all bad - I will not buy anymore of them because of this, way too much trouble to replace these caps.

timmy
02-10-2013, 06:55 PM
i still wonder how those beams are directed in a flat crt. its just amazing how they did this with the gun straight in and the screen tilted a few degrees and a pic is there.

crtfool
02-10-2013, 07:16 PM
The screens in the CRT Watchman sets are not flat, they are sloped, and the beam is scanned with a standard magnetic deflection yoke - very complicated geometry though.

The real marvel was the original FD-210 CRT Watchman that did have a true flat screen - it used electrostatic deflection, and the geometry was much better than in any of the later models with the sloped screens.

Sandy G
02-10-2013, 08:34 PM
I remember buying a Sony FD-2 or somesuch 1986,'87, maybe '88, & they had 'em on a "Hanging" rack in a blister pack...Think I gave $35 or so for it...It was the El Cheapo version, no AC plug or ext antenna connection...Cute toy, it did pretty good in a big town, but not so much out here in the Tuilies...

crtfool
02-10-2013, 08:49 PM
I remember those. I bought my first CRT Watchman (FD-10, maybe) in 1992 from a garage sale for $5 - it was in pieces - I reassembled it, and it did not work, fried voltage regulator chip - I guess that they used the wrong adapter, and then someone tried to repair it. I did fix it, but was not impressed with the geometry - ended up giving it to someone. I did not buy another 1 of the later generation models, but I did finally buy an FD-210 original model - very happy with it.

Dave A
02-10-2013, 11:13 PM
I have a FD-20 that I use for a portable analog test monitor for video paths. I threw a cross-hatch in it once and if it was a car it would have been pulled over for DUI. Movement on the screen hides a lot of sins.

I also have a FD-210 and I had to go look and never noticed the pure flat screen vs. the tilted screen. Now I have to throw a cross-hatch on it and see what happens. I'll try for comparison pix.

AiboPet
02-11-2013, 08:15 AM
I run an 'ol FD10 in the front room just to turn on and see the inhouse transmitter and it's media player are still running (both run 24/7). The FD10 is the one with no AC adaptor...so it just sits in the front room on the coffeetable.

A crosshatch on an FD10 looks like BEER GOGGLES. Its a wonder that regular motion video actually does look okay on the little thing. A couple 42A sets I have do have "better" geometry, but they are still a bit strange. I did notice the 42A sets have BETTER geometry running on a wall wart than even a fresh set of C batteries.

crtfool
02-11-2013, 03:44 PM
I think that the FD-10 was the cheapest model that they made - and it looks like it is too.

jr_tech
02-11-2013, 09:21 PM
I think that the FD-10 was the cheapest model that they made - and it looks like it is too.

Good enough for the casual viewer!

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=175592&d=1343766112

jr

Dave A
02-11-2013, 09:22 PM
FD-20 and FD-210 pix below. The 210 wins and I cannot figure out how they did the sweep. If you look at the edges around the screen there are three little ports. Two above the screen and one to the lower right. Not sure what they do but they have to play a part. Dilithium beams maybe? Now I gotta try the Pana CT-101 color.

crtfool
02-12-2013, 05:21 PM
The FD-20 doesn't look too bad - I had a lot worse on the 1 I gave away, severe pincushion and trapezoid deformation. The FD-210 looks very good.

compucat
02-13-2013, 07:56 AM
The FD-20 doesn't look too bad - I had a lot worse on the 1 I gave away, severe pincushion and trapezoid deformation. The FD-210 looks very good.

There are geometry adjustment pots on the FD-20 that correct for trapezoidal raster. I have noticed the screen geometry varies between examples of this set. The FD-20 does seem to be one of the better models, built before they started cheapening things with the FD-10 which had no picture controls and could not even use an AC adaptor.

The FD-230 is a good set, solidly built and with a 2.7 inch screen.

timmy
02-13-2013, 12:43 PM
does anyone know if the plastic front cover can be removed for dust cleaning on the sony fd-10. i know the fd-20 has 2 screws to remove the front for cleaning. i dont want to pry on the fd-10 and break the front.

jr_tech
02-13-2013, 05:07 PM
does anyone know if the plastic front cover can be removed for dust cleaning on the sony fd-10. i know the fd-20 has 2 screws to remove the front for cleaning. i dont want to pry on the fd-10 and break the front.

I tried on a "parts set" that I have, using several different plastic pry tools, and could not budge it without messing up the plastic around the screen cover. It appears to be solidly glued in place. :( I think that you have to go in from the back, which is not an easy task!

jr

timmy
02-14-2013, 06:40 AM
well its not that bad with dust or dead bugs so ill leave it, thanks.

andy
02-14-2013, 12:29 PM
You might be able to blow it out with compressed air.

timmy
02-14-2013, 12:55 PM
i noticed that on the fd-10 when the back is taken off extreme care must be applied in putting the back, back on because the micro switch for uhf-vhf broke when i put the back on as i didnt line up the position of the swich relative to where the slider is on the cover. the micro switch has a very thin plastic tab and will break if you look at it the wrong way,lol as mine broke. so i put a little crazy glue to keep the switch in the vhf position.

compucat
02-15-2013, 07:32 AM
i noticed that on the fd-10 when the back is taken off extreme care must be applied in putting the back, back on because the micro switch for uhf-vhf broke when i put the back on as i didnt line up the position of the swich relative to where the slider is on the cover. the micro switch has a very thin plastic tab and will break if you look at it the wrong way,lol as mine broke. so i put a little crazy glue to keep the switch in the vhf position.

Also I have noticed on the FD-10 and FD-2A that the cabinet plastic is relatively soft and the screws that go direct.y into the plastic can strip out easily. This does not seem to be a problem with the models that came before and after.

timmy
02-15-2013, 07:57 AM
yes i found that the plastic is infact soft. well the cheapest way to make them, they did.

Telecolor 3007
07-14-2016, 06:27 PM
But how in the world they made the deflection when the gun was underneath?

jr_tech
07-15-2016, 01:44 PM
But how in the world they made the deflection when the gun was underneath?
Electron beams can be deflected at 90 degrees or more. It is possible even to make a mirror which can reverse the travel of the beam completely. However, as the beam is deflected more the beam can be de-focused and geometry can suffer. The Sony tvs had considerable keystone correction, and yet the geometry was not very good on these tiny sets.

jr

Electronic M
07-15-2016, 07:11 PM
But how in the world they made the deflection when the gun was underneath?

The screen is the back piece of glass. You look through one sheet of glass, through the vacuum then at the screen on the inside of the back wall of the CRT the screen curves gently out toward the viewer at the top. From the electron gun's perspective it it shooting at a very short wide screen....No crazy deflection angles here.

If you had asked a few months back I'd have given you a working Sony paddle CRT set for the cost of shipping.

jr_tech
07-15-2016, 07:48 PM
The screen is the back piece of glass. You look through one sheet of glass, through the vacuum then at the screen on the inside of the back wall of the CRT the screen curves gently out toward the viewer at the top. From the electron gun's perspective it it shooting at a very short wide screen....No crazy deflection angles here.


That is indeed true for the second generation design, the curved phosphor screen allowed the electron beam to land with only modest vertical deflection required. Magnetic deflection was employed for both axes.
The first generation design employed a flat phosphor screen at 90 degrees to the electron gun. A combination of magnetic and electrostatic deflection was used to achieve proper landing of the beam.

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=165295&d=1256418738

jr

timmy
01-28-2017, 09:06 AM
Were any of these micro sets made with electrostatic crts ?

jr_tech
01-28-2017, 12:13 PM
Were any of these micro sets made with electrostatic crts ?
Here is a picture from post #3 of this thread, showing the electrostatic crt that was used in a Sinclair portable:

http://www.videokarma.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=165297&d=1256418738

post #3 : http://www.videokarma.org/showpost.php?p=2958014&postcount=3

jr

timmy
01-28-2017, 12:48 PM
I guess that would be the tube in the center ?

jr_tech
01-28-2017, 01:48 PM
Yes... notice the fat neck needed to enclose the deflection plates vs the skinny necks with magnetic deflection yokes mounted on them.

Fyi, there is a Sinclair set on eBay right now: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SINCLAIR-MINI-TV-FROM-ENGLAND-1977-WITH-ORIGINAL-CASE-RARE-/282335308977?hash=item41bc7eecb1:g:CMoAAOSwiONYLir h

not affiliated,
jr

timmy
01-28-2017, 03:28 PM
Would that one have the electrostatic tube or would it have been in an older model ?

jr_tech
01-28-2017, 07:12 PM
Yes, the set is the same model as the one that I got the electrostatic tube that I photographed out of.

jr