View Full Version : Need help IDing this


mbates14
08-01-2004, 08:36 PM
I found at a yardsale, for 15bux this little radio. I know nothing about this radio, except for what it looks like. Ive restored alot of TVs. and I have restored 1 radio, but nothing near this old.

There is no back, or model number, so maybe you can figure it out by looking at the pictures. Its a philco shortwave / AM radio, and looks like from the 30s or 40s? someone give me a lot of insight, because I need to get the sams to restore it, and I am no where near gonna try to "just plug it in" I also need a new speaker, anywhere I can get one?

mbates14
08-01-2004, 08:39 PM
2nd pic:

mbates14
08-01-2004, 08:41 PM
last pic:

mbates14
08-01-2004, 09:08 PM
NO PAPER CAPS???

the old filters are still there, but i looked at the bottom of the medal one, its gone. I can tell. its dried up, because you can see black crusty stuff that oozed out of the bottom holes

Charlie
08-01-2004, 09:43 PM
Already got you a new project since the motorola is finished?

Is there anything identifying the brand? GE, philco, RCA? You're not goin to find a Sams for that... it will have to be a Riders I bet. I would guess it to be 1940-ish?

I have a good book showing tons of photos of these sets, but it's at home and I'm at camp right now. If you don't find any other clues by the time I get home, I'll look thru my book.

Looks like someone has repaired it in the past. That orange drop and those round disc capacitors definately arent OEM. But look at how simple things look in there. Shouldn't be too hard to fix up. Your speaker is probably electro-magnetic, so it will have to be plugged in for things to work once you try firing it up.

Charlie
08-01-2004, 09:46 PM
You may be able to get that speaker re-coned if there is someone in your area that specializes in it. Check with places that sell guitar amps.... they sometimes re-cone them. If not, they may be able to tell you of someone nearby that does.

mbates14
08-01-2004, 09:48 PM
yea, its got one of those blasted speaker fields.

the cone is torn all to heck and back. im not sure if it sounds right or not, I might be able to repair the cone, but I dunno.

anyway, its VERY old, its a philco FM/SW/AM radio.

id say about '47 because of the tubes.

its got XXL tubes and other weird looking ones, and its got a couple of 41s for the final.

mbates14
08-01-2004, 09:51 PM
BTW. Id say this filter looks kinda toasty.

anyway, I bet this thing works. the filter is just bad, and a replacing will prolly fix it.

Charlie
08-01-2004, 09:57 PM
If you can, give us a list of the rest of the tubes. Seems like 41's are much earlier than 1947.

I've contacted a local friend of mine that deals with radios of this sort and sent him a link. He'll take a look and maybe can give some insight.

It appears that in your second photo, there is a name at the very bottom edge of the photo. Can you tell what it says?

Charlie
08-01-2004, 10:01 PM
Nevermind... it's a Philco... I can see the name on a transformer under the chassis.

Also, it looks like someone made some notes in pencil on the inside of the chassis? What's that say? Anything useful?

Sandy G
08-01-2004, 10:12 PM
I MAY have found it in this "Pre-War Consoles" book I have. Think it's a model 390X, circa 1942. Sez here 8 tubes, & 3 bands. The pic I have looks like its the double-first-cousin, anyway. Hope this helps. -Sandy G.

lynnm
08-01-2004, 10:37 PM
"That orange drop and those round disc capacitors definately arent OEM. "

That "orange drop" is likely no less original than that round disk capacitor. By that I mean that disc capacitors ( AKA ceramics ) and paper/foil caps coated in opaque orange wax [?] were not unheard of in radios of that vintage, ( admittedly caps coated in transparent yellow wax were much more common in that era ).

Interestingly that orange coating on the very old caps tended to be very much more brittle than the yellow wax coating. I can't honestly say whether the coating on those orange caps was simply a brittle type of wax or perhaps some early sort of thermoplastic.

I can't say when ceramic caps were first used but can say that as a kid butchering old radios in the early to late 50's I saw them often enough so as not to take any particular notice.....Unfortunately I then was literally nothing more than an enthusiastic but utterly uneducated/unintended vandal for the most part and often cringe now about all the very early Atwater-Kents etc. that I destroyed while attempting to become the next DeForest or Marconi :rolleyes:

If I had known then what I know now I wouldn't be schlepping back and forth to my city job every day. On the other hand I may still wind up getting my 15 minutes for being the oldest computer tech in Calgary to drop dead on the job. :D

Kamakiri
08-02-2004, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Sandy G
I MAY have found it in this "Pre-War Consoles" book I have. Think it's a model 390X, circa 1942. Sez here 8 tubes, & 3 bands. The pic I have looks like its the double-first-cousin, anyway. Hope this helps. -Sandy G.

Just caught this thread now.....it's definitely a '42 Philco. The weird phenolic brown dial bezel is a dead giveaway.....Philco only used them in '42. And they always cracked.......

Tom Bavis
08-02-2004, 07:32 AM
Nice find! Another BIG clue - it has the old FM band. You can listen to baby monitors and your neighbor's cordless phones, maybe some fire departments still on the low band...

There are Philco service bulletins on my web page - look at model 42-390.

http://www.audiophool.cjb.net/Philco.html

PUT A FUSE in this sucker! The 6X5 rectifier is infamous for shorting and taking out the power transformer!

mbates14
08-02-2004, 12:13 PM
I hope my power transformer isnt bad.

because I did test the rectifier, and it tested fine with no shorts on my knight.

it does infact have 8 tubes. Does anyone have a schematic theyd like to send me through email or something? these caps are IN FACT not oem. I can tell that the leads were clipped and new caps soldered in at one time. prolly the 50s or 60s.


I cant read the notes, it looks like doctors writing to me.

mbates14
08-02-2004, 12:16 PM
it has a .djvu file extension on your site. What are these? I cant view them

Charlie
08-02-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by mbates14
I cant read the notes, it looks like doctors writing to me.

Typical hen-scratch, huh? That sucks... it might be some good useful info. Do you have a doctor in the family? He/she might be able to break the code for ya! :D

mbates14
08-02-2004, 12:28 PM
lol.

ill try to read most of it I can. (hence broken english)

mbates14
08-02-2004, 12:35 PM
here ya go, something about the wire connections.

Tom Bavis
08-02-2004, 12:42 PM
I should have put a note on my page that you need a browser plug-in to read DjVu files - there's a link on my home page. I attempted to edit the page and destroyed all lthe links... :( I'll fix it when I get home - I fixed the link for the 42-390, so it should be OK if you run the DjVu plug-in first. If you have the latest version of Irfanview (3.91), it also handles DjVu files.

If you can't get it to work, I can send it as a zip file or pdf.

Charlie
08-02-2004, 12:45 PM
Hmm... looks like...

red xxxx, orange, yellow--> on osc coil for SW
brown jumper on FM xxxx xxx coil

That's the best i could do. Sometimes, servicemen would make notes on a chassis as to the Sams or Riders page number for the schematics. That's what i had hoped for.

mbates14
08-02-2004, 01:40 PM
so basically what that decodes to, is I have to move wires around for each band?? What are all of those pushbuttons in the front. That gets me.

mbates14
08-02-2004, 01:41 PM
im reading "on fm ant rf coil cd"

mbates14
08-02-2004, 01:43 PM
I know how you screwed you links up.

they are pointing to your IE cache directory.

mbates14
08-02-2004, 03:59 PM
I know its not gonna take much to get this beast working.

That schematic and stuff is right down to the tee. Thanks!

anyway, according to the schematic, If i pull the rectifier tube, the B+ is cut off, so I dont have to worry about shorting.

I pulled out the rectifier, and plugged it in.

to my surprise, BOTH pilet lights work, and all the tube filiments are lighting.

so right there, its not going to take much.

Anyway, the rectifier tube is no where near original, its been replaced. I can tell. all the tubes are philco brand, and this on is tung-sol black base. I think it had died before.

Imma check the transformer windings for AC volts going to the rect plates under power while the tube is out, just to see if the transformer is good. Ill report back on that.

Charlie
08-02-2004, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by mbates14
so basically what that decodes to, is I have to move wires around for each band?? What are all of those pushbuttons in the front. That gets me.

All of your buttons are presets... or it looks like at least 5 of them are. The others are band selectors. Your schematic should tell you which are which.

It looks like each preset has it's own osc coil and when you press that button, you adjust the coil to the frequency you want it to stay at. If you have 5 presets, I would guess that 2 of them are for your AM band, 2 or four SW, and the last one for FM (just guessing). Looks like the button on the far left is OFF. When you press any of the other buttons, the set come on.

mbates14
08-02-2004, 04:15 PM
I took a measurement between pins 3 and 5 of the rectifier socket, (goes to both plates)

im reading about 577vac from the windings.

That indicates the power transformer is good, but is the voltage normal? seems very high.

mbates14
08-02-2004, 04:32 PM
I also need new dial cord, because you cannot turn the dial with the knob. You can turn the dial and string with the big wheel in the back to the capacitor.

Tim Tress
08-02-2004, 08:32 PM
On the under-chassis picture., that black rectangular object next to the power transformer is a dual .01 mfd line-bypass capacitor; it should be replaced . Use 1kv or higher capacitors.

Reece
08-02-2004, 08:43 PM
Your voltage is probably OK as you have the rectifier out and no load on the transformer. Should drop some when the rectifier is finally working and feeding B+.

For dial cord you can use woven fishing line, readily available everywhere. If you have any missing cord tension springs, you can get a plastic box of assorted small springs from a home center like Lowe's.

Somebody has been in there before you so you want to check it out carefully. When I recap a larger set like this, I like to print out a copy of the schematic, and then trace every wire in the set one by one and mark it off with a highlighter as I go, replacing caps. When the schematic is completely highlighted, you're done. It's too easy to get lost and keep going back over the same ground without a "road map."

Tom is right on that 6X5. Belt and suspenders: I'd put both a line fuse and one in the cathode circuit of the 6X5 so if it shorts it won't take your transformer with it.
Good luck with it,

Reece

mbates14
08-02-2004, 11:05 PM
to me, it looks like it has been recapped.

I dunno if this matters much, but I noticed in the schematic that the filters are (2)8mfd, and 1 18mfd.

well, in place of the (2)8mfd caps is an aluminum can as shown in picture, and its rated for 40mfd at 475vdc, and 30mfd at 475vdc.

the paper electrolytic is the same.

Any ideas as to why this capacitor is way different? does it matter?

mbates14
08-02-2004, 11:53 PM
ok, What size fuses do I need? Im gonna stop by rat shack tomorrow and pick them up along with holders.

Im going to use 3. 1 line fuse, 1 fuse going to the filiment of the rect tube, and 1 fuse connecting the load right??

I need the fuse sizes.

1 line fuse
1 rectifier filiment fuse
1 B+ load fuse.

Reece
08-03-2004, 11:43 AM
It was partially recapped, but how well, and when? That electrolytic under the chassis should be a top mount, but was cobbled in. That's a sample of how careful the recapping was. If there's a dead 'lytic up top now, you can leave it for visual effect and add new ones under the chassis. Probably need some terminal strips.

You should stick close to the values on the schematic. Too large a first electrolytic filter can overstress the rectifier tube on startup as it tries to fill up that big empty cap with juice, just what you want to avoid. You could use a 10mfd for the first cap out of the rectifier, and a 22 for the other two electrolytics. Voltages should be at least the same as the schematic or a little higher.

After checking it over and changing the 'lytics, you could probably make it play, but for peace of mind and neatness, it would be cheap to just go ahead and recap it per the schematic.

As to fuses, you can (or could not too long ago?) get little clip-in fuse holders from RS that you just solder in under the chassis. For the line you could try 1.25 amps. The heater draws 0.6 amp so a 0.75 or even 1.0 amp would be OK. The maximum B+ rating of the 6X5 is 0.75Ma, so a 100Ma (1/10 amp) fuse would work. All the fuses need to be rated for the voltage they will see, or more.

You can get even more peace of mind (how much do you want??)
:) by installing an NTC (Negative Temperature Coefficient) thermistor in the transformer primary circuit. This has a high resistance when cold, but the resistance drops to a negligible number quickly, allowing full power. So you get a soft-start effect for the whole set. A good one to use is a CL90, 120 ohms cold, 2 amps max. This type could be used on most radios. Resistance is only a couple of ohms when hot. Mouser and others sell them.

That'll be quite a radio when done!

Reece

mbates14
08-03-2004, 12:51 PM
correction: That lytic is supposed to be under the chassis. there is no hole on top, and also in the schematics it shows it there.

the only issue is, the retainer clip is gone, so it was hot glued in.

Reece
08-03-2004, 02:40 PM
Whoops...I'm at work and the pictures don't work on this computer, re: the electrolytic location. If it had been the original one under the chassis, it would have been a paper one, probably, with wire leads. The last guy just used what he had. Modern ones will be individual and a lot smaller.


Reece

Paula
08-03-2004, 09:29 PM
Wow, what a neat radio! Looks like an exciting project, and best of luck with it. I have to agree with Reece -- it looks to me like that aluminum-can electrolytic that was hot-glued under the chassis is not original. That particular one appears to be 60's vintage.

In case you're interested, here's a guy that sells reproduction dial escutcheons for your radio (390X?), and also knobs and pushbuttons, though yours look fine from the picture. A tad pricy though, at twice what you paid for the radio :eek:

http://www.antiqueradioknobs.com/partlistings.html

Paula

Tim Tress
08-03-2004, 10:38 PM
The plastic escutcheons on prewar Philcos are notorious for shrinking and warping; the one on my 41-285 shrunk enough to pop the corners off where it was screwed onto the cabinet. Early plastics were somewhat unstable.

mbates14
08-04-2004, 11:43 AM
well, mine is a little bit warped, but fotunatly, it isnt cracked at all. Thank god for that one.

mbates14
08-05-2004, 02:16 PM
hey! it works! I replaced all filter caps and it works, and sounds well, great.

the speaker, umm. well.. not so great. it sounds, but thats about it. lol.

anyway, it sounds like plastic vibrating agains wood or something.

I put a filiment string fuse, and a line fuse in it, and both holds.

when the shorted lytics, the line blew, so I put a new fuse in it.

Charlie
08-05-2004, 02:36 PM
Man that's great! Hopefully you'll be able to have the speaker repaired.

If you want, you could install another speaker for now to see how well the audio is. Of course, you'd need to leave the field coil leads connected on the original so it would operate. Or, if the schematic gives you a resistance value of the coil, you could just use a resistor in place of the coil. I think i had used an 1800 ohm 10 watt resistor on a radio I was working on years ago. Played fine that way while it was on the bench.

mbates14
08-05-2004, 02:54 PM
I ductaped the whole speaker. *when isnt there a use for ductape*

I lost some loudness, but it sounds much much better, and it has deeper bass.

ductape is the answere to everything. its better than paper flatterin aroun when bass hits.

mbates14
08-05-2004, 02:57 PM
they really knew how to make radios. damn it sounds good. it puts my damn Solid state stereo to shame. lol. it sound richer, its kinda hard to explain how it sounds. its the tubes. i love them

mbates14
08-05-2004, 03:00 PM
the only problem is, I cant get it too loud without major clipping. i guess thast all 3 watts can give me.

Charlie
08-05-2004, 03:03 PM
If you decide to have someone recone the speaker, just imaging the look on their faces when you present them a 60 year-old speaker with ductape filling! :lmao:

mbates14
08-05-2004, 03:09 PM
lol. lol.

I always ductape speakers. saves me money, and frankly, it works.

mbates14
08-05-2004, 03:12 PM
I still have an old 50's organ amplifier. that has 2 channels. had no tubes, so it was designed for 6v6 tubes.

I rebiased and worked on a couple of connections and used EL34s in this bad boy. It works as found, all original caps. it delievers roughly about 50wpc