View Full Version : Possible DTV Delay


bgadow
11-25-2008, 10:06 PM
I was surprised to read this report today, a few days old.

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/CA6616487.html

I don't know why they would wait an extra month, why not 2 months or 6 months? But I'll accept it, if it happens.

OvenMaster
11-25-2008, 10:16 PM
What a PITA. There they are talking about stations hanging on another month, and in my TV market, the PBS outlet's already switched over, and the ABC outlet is switching over on December 1.

Nothing like a uniform, predictable, set-in-stone date, eh??

Tom

EDIT: the ABC outlet couldn't even get their date right. They shut off Friday, November 28.

zenith2134
11-26-2008, 12:22 AM
Not to mention that this is the second (third?) time they pushed the transition back. Its a blessing and a curse I suppose. For analog TV hobbyists, it means one more month without mandatory converter boxes, but for HDTV type people who want digital now, it'll likely piss them off.

radiotvnut
11-26-2008, 12:50 AM
I'm about to the point where I'll believe analog is done when I see snow on channel 11.

markthefixer
11-26-2008, 12:59 AM
The digital's already here, the only thing to be done is the changeover's frequency reassignments. Once you are digitally operating, I doubt there's much interest individually among "HDTV type people" to see the Analog go dark, as they ARE getting their HDTV signal. Their impatience would have been directed at the broadcasters to upgrade their equipment. The folks that want to use the vacated spectrum for other things are a different matter.

For Chicago, the most significant change is moving the channel 3 DTV broadcast of "channel 2" up to 12 in the vhf-hi spectrum. It'll improve the digital reception threshold a bit for that channel on marginal lo-vhf antennas (the long elements that tend to get beat up).

If it weren't for these two channels ending up on the hi-vhf band (the lower of the two will be channel 7 ON channel 7, 52 now...), the entire DTV spectrum in the Chicago market would be on UHF, a boon for antenna selection.

The only difference to me is to upgrade my house coax to rg-6 for lower uhf loss on the longer runs. Maybe I can scrag some of that 1-2 Ghz satellite dish stuff somewhere.

markthefixer
11-26-2008, 01:02 AM
I'm about to the point where I'll believe analog is done when I see snow on channel 11.

:lmao: :thmbsp: yup !!!

And the only way I'll know is when my dad grabs the wrong remote and can't find the Bears game!!!

batterymaker
11-26-2008, 07:13 AM
In the newest issue of Popular Communications, there's an article about the changeover. Color me surprised, NO ONE is ready for it. Most electronics dealers are clueless.

If you get the chance, take a look at it.

Kamakiri
11-26-2008, 07:29 AM
Are they planning on doing anything with the frequencies now allocated to television, or is this just some ploy to get people weaned off of rabbit ears and make them buy new sets?

merrylander
11-26-2008, 07:57 AM
Are they planning on doing anything with the frequencies now allocated to television, or is this just some ploy to get people weaned off of rabbit ears and make them buy new sets?


That spectrum has already been sold to Verizon and AT&T, why else do you think DTV is being pushed.

zenithfan1
11-26-2008, 08:54 AM
I hate verizon, at&t and dtv!! Screw 'em all!!!

mhardy6647
11-26-2008, 11:19 AM
OTA digital TV reception (via converter box) in my deep fringe suburban Boston location is awful with a UHF/VHF outdoor directional. I am not sure what we are going to do when the analog plug is pulled; the idea of paying to watch commercial TV (via cable, that is) really galls me :-(

Kamakiri
11-26-2008, 11:36 AM
That spectrum has already been sold to Verizon and AT&T, why else do you think DTV is being pushed.

I kinda thought that it was to get the public to adopt the new technology, and create sales revenue for suppliers of electronics.

But what the heck are they gonna do with the band? Ain't like it's good for cell usage.

mhardy6647
11-26-2008, 11:52 AM
Digital data streams. The FCC wanted to re-sell the TV RF bandwidth (which is a huge chunk of the spectrum) to the "emerging digital wireless services". EDIT: Anything else I would type would veer into the political :-O

zenith2134
11-26-2008, 01:01 PM
Heard they're going to try launching a WiMax network (city-wide wireless broadband) on the old analog spectrum.

I did however read that WiMax was shut down in the UK and other places in its early stages because it was a potential health risk. I think further studies need to be done with such a new technology before it is pushed on the public.

Mhardy, you can always just 'throw away your television' as they say. Lots of people, including my father who is 53, are doing that. I rarely watch TV, but got the converters just in case a GOOD new show pops up. So far, eh.....

vinyldavid
11-26-2008, 01:05 PM
I'm with Tom (zenith2134), I never watch TV, and watch movies on my computer usually...unless it's a VHS. I think that I have watched 10 hours of OTA tv this year, and 4 of those was a debate....I've got a converter box, but will probably never use it.

merrylander
11-26-2008, 01:06 PM
Or get a good DVD player and subscribe to Netflix.

merrylander
11-26-2008, 01:09 PM
[QUOTE=zenith2134;2276999]Heard they're going to try launching a WiMax network (city-wide wireless broadband) on the old analog spectrum.

I did however read that WiMax was shut down in the UK and other places in its early stages because it was a potential health risk. I think further studies need to be done with such a new technology before it is pushed on the public.

/[QUOTE]

Would not surprise me, read the Obits sometimes, ever since cell phones became ubiquitous the number of people dying from brain tumors is un-nerving.

zenith2134
11-26-2008, 01:20 PM
Really, merrylander? There's an unsettling thought. Personally haven't had a cell phone since 2005 and have no plans on buying a new one. :no:

markthefixer
11-26-2008, 02:04 PM
I kinda thought that it was to get the public to adopt the new technology, and create sales revenue for suppliers of electronics.

But what the heck are they gonna do with the band? Ain't like it's good for cell usage.

Actually the longer wavelengths on the lo-vhf band penetrate structures better, the higher the frequency, the more it acts like light. More common materials attenuate the signal to a greater degree.

BUT, channel 51 (692-698mhz) will be the highest channel now, not 68(794-800mhz ) or 83 (channels 70-83, they gave that to cellular, remember?). lotta big corporations went WOOOO HOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!! and bought up the rights to use 698 MHz through 793 MHz that the gummint auctioned off.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/700_MHz_wireless_spectrum_auction

The biggest aspect that the gummint is touting is the public safety aspect, using these bands to interconnect emergency responders. Even though it looks like a fireman's walkie-talkie, the actual way it handles the rf isn't. There's a lot of digital involved to cut the actual time the hand held is actually radiating rf, so other messages aren't blocked. And the signal goes through walls better.

BUT to stay constitutional - in other words avoiding -taking - type lawsuits (remember the farmer who sued because Air Force jets scared his chickens who stopped laying eggs, and he won), they instituted the converter coupon program.



SO it boils down to money the gummint wanted.... $19.592 BILLION and counting....

There are huge threads on here about it. I'm surprised you weren't as up on the subject. :dunno:

VinylHanger
11-26-2008, 05:14 PM
Not to mention that this is the second (third?) time they pushed the transition back. Its a blessing and a curse I suppose. For analog TV hobbyists, it means one more month without mandatory converter boxes, but for HDTV type people who want digital now, it'll likely piss them off.

I doubt there are very many HDTV people that are waiting for Digital over the air broadcasts. Most are setup with cable or Sat.

zenith2134
11-26-2008, 06:45 PM
You'd be surprised I bet. I've seen a bunch of people relying on OTA HD.

bgadow
11-28-2008, 01:11 PM
Over to the inlaws for turkey day, since we'd visited last they've bought a Sanyo LCD. I have to admit, it looked pretty good. My stepmother has the same set and it looks terrible. I need to get in the menu and see if I can bring it up to par. Anyway, I was amazed at the channels they were getting with their outdoor antenna, more than I can get and I'm closer to all the stations. Time to climb up on the roof. Maybe St.Nick can leave one up there? :)

It sounded like the idea of the extension was to blanket the public with PSA's over the extra month. There certainly is confusion out there. Locally one of the stations has shut off analog; I was talking to someone the other day who thought they had gone out of business.

Thyratron
11-28-2008, 10:37 PM
but for HDTV type people who want digital now, it'll likely piss them off.

Good.

I don't suppose those types have any concern for tv DXers' hobby (or the preservation of vintage tvs, either).

freakaftr8
11-29-2008, 11:59 PM
I love it.... (pun intended)..

ChrisW6ATV
11-30-2008, 12:09 AM
Good.

I don't suppose those types have any concern for tv DXers' hobby (or the preservation of vintage tvs, either).
Who exactly are you referring to? People who watch HDTV?

colorfixer
11-30-2008, 05:29 AM
The folks who run LPTV stations are all up in arms because they feel that the future changeover will put their enterprises in jeopardy.

Areas with LPTV and low power translators are unaffected, and the interesting thing is that the areas that are served by them are still innundated with the same infomercials, but with a small, very rapid, subliminal like caption that LPTV and translators will be unaffected. Don't blink or you'll miss those magic words.

I'm wondering how long it will be before they will be selling "analog converters" for your digital tvs without analog tuners.

Kuma
11-30-2008, 01:36 PM
I'm relying on OTA here in the Detroit area, and from what I understand the digital switch will employ a stronger signal, too. I hope so, because I get some digital farts and freezes now and then which would hopefully go away with a signal boost.

I personally don't have an HD TV, but the uncompressed signal provides a picture noticeably superior to what I had with digital cable. Aside from not getting Red Wing games, I'm quite happy with OTA broadcasting.

Thyratron
12-04-2008, 10:13 PM
Chris, I'm referring to the "people who want digital now." I think it's pretty safe to say that if one is looking forward to this digital "conversion," that they're probably not too much into tv DXing or using old tvs as they were originally intended to be (as in over the air reception).

peverett
12-04-2008, 10:53 PM
Before completely committing to the discontinuing of NTSC analog, DTV shoud prove itself though at least one spring storm season in central portion of the US. Turn if off in Feb., but delay all other items such as getting rid of transmitters, letting the bandwith go away, etc. until July or so.

If tornado warnings cannot be received, people will die. DTV is not worth that.

As to the people (who always seem to post) saying "Get the warnings by radio", a picture(in this case a doppler radar picture) truly is worth 1000+ words.

radiotvnut
12-04-2008, 11:05 PM
In my area, the local TV station is much more on top of things in the weather warning department than any radio station around here. We normally depend on a small Panasonic B&W battery portable when the weather is bad. I guess those days are numbered....

The other night, the wind was blowing pretty hard and I tried OTA DTV just to see what would happen. It was messing up like crazy!

Ed in Tx
12-04-2008, 11:17 PM
I have a 12 VDC-operated DTV converter box to go with my little Sony KV-9PT60 9" AC-DC portable TV. Should work OK but will drain my battery faster, a 92 Ah AGM battery I keep charged with a solar panel out on my driveway gate opener.

electroking
12-04-2008, 11:30 PM
Before completely committing to the discontinuing of NTSC analog, DTV shoud prove itself though at least one spring storm season in central portion of the US. Turn if off in Feb., but delay all other items such as getting rid of transmitters, letting the bandwith go away, etc. until July or so.

If tornado warnings cannot be received, people will die. DTV is not worth that.

As to the people (who always seem to post) saying "Get the warnings by radio", a picture(in this case a doppler radar picture) truly is worth 1000+ words.

OK, I won't post that kind of comment anymore, I promise!

Here in Canada the transition is still a long (!) time away (August, 2011),
so it will be interesting to watch the U.S. experience. Good night to all.

peverett
12-05-2008, 07:39 PM
As one who was born in Tornado Alley(Oklahoma) and live now live in Texas(on the south end of tornado alley). I speak from experience. I have seen quite a bit of damage and know of two F5s(the strongest tornado by rating) in the last 10 years. One killed 30 people in Oklahoma and the other killed about the same number 50 miles north of me. And this was with warnings by NTSC analog TV! (I have read that you pretty much need to be underground with this strong of a tornado-if you do not or cannot get underground-you will probably die).

Personal experience-I was watching DTV when a line of strong storms came near the city that I live in(Austin, Texas). As might be expected, it complety crapped out. I turned on a TV receiving NTSC analog and was able to watch it until the storms had passed-luckily no tornados that day, but at least I was able to see where the worst weather was at all times.

Hemingray
12-05-2008, 08:38 PM
If tornado warnings cannot be received, people will die. DTV is not worth that.

As to the people (who always seem to post) saying "Get the warnings by radio", a picture(in this case a doppler radar picture) truly is worth 1000+ words.

Most people keep NOAA radios handy (We have two in our house).

Adam
12-05-2008, 10:12 PM
So what analog signals will be left after this February? I've heard that certain low power uhf stations will keep broadcasting analog, and earlier in this thread that Canadian tv will hold out for a while. But what else, and for how long?

peverett
12-05-2008, 10:20 PM
I have what is called a "weather radio". Is this what you have? Still, this is not nearly as useful as TV. Its prime use would be to sound the alarm(if the alarm is set up by the manufacturer correctly-mine is not). In fact, while visiting my mother in rural Oklahoma. last summer, this is precisely what we used it for-turning on the TV to catch the radar images immediately after getting up,(storms came in the middle of the night). Unhappily, my mother only had Satellite(her outside NTSC antenna is in bad shape at present and she is 60 miles from the transmitters). Just as with DTV, satellite crapped out just as the storms came near. Lucky for us, no tornados again-but there was some hail. I have to get her a new antenna and hope someone in in Washington becomes sane about this changeover. In my mothers case, the neigbors do have an underground storm celler she can use.

On the weather radio, the were giving locations such as "just north of X' where X is a small town near my mothers house. On TV they can and do actually show the neighborhood or locality to be next affected by the severe weather. No comparison in my opinion.

There is a reason that TV stations have spent millions of dollars on "Dual Doppler", "Hail profilers", etc. No radio can match that.

peverett
12-05-2008, 10:27 PM
For those who may think that I am the lone nay-sayer about DTV, below is one of many links writings of others who think the same way. I have posted several of these already.

http://www.edn.com/blog/1700000170/post/1430037543.html?nid=3351&rid=738728466

New technology is fine when it works better than the old, but the government forcing what in many ways is inferior technology on people just so corporations can make money is completely wrong.

ChrisW6ATV
12-06-2008, 08:14 PM
Chris, I'm referring to the "people who want digital now." I think it's pretty safe to say that if one is looking forward to this digital "conversion," that they're probably not too much into tv DXing or using old tvs as they were originally intended to be (as in over the air reception).
I don't know about "wanting" digital "now", since it has been available all over the USA to one degree or another for years. In fact, I have not watched anything but digital TV since probably the end of 2000. Most of it has been over-the-air, and I dropped my satellite TV subscription in December 2005. OTA digital TV (converted) looks far better than any broadcast NTSC, on my 1964 RCA CTC-16. This is with a pair of rabbit ears, and I live 25+ miles from all the digital broadcasters. Once I get my spare TV antenna onto the top of my existing 55-foot-high tower with a rotator, I plan to do some fun digital TV DXing as well, at least whatever is possible in a hilly area like this. Oh, I still do tinker with analog TV as part of my ham-radio hobby. The best weak-signal NTSC receiver I own, that can pick up color and sound from very low-level signals, is... a digital LCD flat-panel TV. :)