I am starting this thread to get a feel for how much 15GP22 owners are willing to pay to have their current 15GP22 dud rebuilt.

At this point, the possibility of success is not known, however we do know most of the approximate costs that will be involved. I am not willing to divulge our costs, but I can tell you that they are VERY SUBSTANTIAL!!!

I am asking 15GP22 owners who may wish to have a tube rebuilt to make a post in reply to this thread, telling how much you would be willing to spend to get your 15GP22 crt rebuilt.

After I have a sufficient number of replies, I will make a post stating whether or not anyone was willing to pony up enough gelt to get the job done.

THIS SHOULD BE VERY INTERESTING!!

Bob

I'm probably going to derail this thread right off the bat as I am not an owner of a CT-100. However, If I theoretically owned a CT-100 with a dud 15GP22 I think that at least $2500 would be in the ballpark if what I would pay to have it rebuilt.. possibly more if success was already proven and time tested.

It should be noted that with no guarantee of success, payment up front with no refund should be factored into the equation.

There about 75 sets that need a working 15G.according to Pete Deksnis. This should be a good profit center for the only CRT rebuilder on the planet

It should be noted that with no guarantee of success, payment up front with no refund should be factored into the equation.

There about 75 sets that need a working 15G.according to Pete Deksnis. This should be a good profit center for the only CRT rebuilder on the planet

Not necessarily so DonDon,

If, and I emphasize IF, we are able to develope a successful rebuild protocall, to either, tubes under vacuum, or also tubes that have lost vacuum, we would most likely do rebuilds on an exchange basis where you deliver us your intact dud and we deliver back to you a successfully rebuilt tube. We would probably only take your money if we already had a good tube ready to deliver.

We thought about doing it sort of "plunk your money down and take your chances" method, but it has too many drawbacks for both the buyer and the rebuilding team.

So consider this as a conventional rebuild situation, where you bring your dud to the rebuilder and he sells you an already rebuilt tube that is tested and ready to install in your set, when you state how much you would be willing to pay for a rebuilt 15GP22.

I'd maybe pay $1000 to support the effort, but I don't know if I need to have a working CT-100 so badly as to pay more. I've had several good working CT-100s, working GE 15CL100, and an "almost" working Stromberg-Carlson 15" set with good tube, so maybe I got my rocks off already. I guess if I hadn't had the thrill already, I'd be a higher bidder.

Charles

ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

(Sorry, that was Dr. Evil)

Maybe you could get the government to pay using an endowment for the arts grant, so long as you promised to smash them afterwards, as some kind of performance art?

As to the rebuild exchange, if a customer submits a non-leaker still under vacuum, will the exchange unit be a non-leaker or just newly sealed unit? I assume the guns will be rebuilt with new fils..

Had not thought about that. I guess it would be proper to exchange a leaker bulb with a rebuilt leaker bulb and a bulb that was under vacuum with a bulb under vacuum.

And certainly we will not rebuild leakers unless we have a reasonable expectation that we have a viable method of sealing the leakers in a way that will last. On our next attempt we will be rebuilding tubes under vacuum as well as at least one leaker, as an experiment to see if our protocall will work on leakers.

OK, now lets please keep to the topic. I would like to see only posts from people that have a dud 15GP22 on how much they would be willing to spend to have a dud 15GP22 rebuilt. Please post other issues to the 15GP22 Rebuild Project thread. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=184009

I think that trying to price now before success is acheived would be misleading. We do not know whether the answers are from collectors with duds. Can you use Pete's list with personal contacts to get a better results?

Perhaps you do some cost analysis with projected time and material costs, add profits and mark that up to a market price.

To answer your question--Probably far north of $1000. I have 6 under vacuum and sealed ready to send. Is the gun rebuilding process with new fils solved?

JF knows where I am....

Wow...you got SIX CT-100s ?!?..... I'm not worthy.....I'm not worthy....(Doing his best Wayne's World genuflection/bowing here...)

Speaking for myself and one other collector who will participate, one tube at first to see how the results are, then I am thinking 3 to 5 more tubes @ $1000 ea, but not all at once. Of these, only one has no white stuff in the neck. That one has no green emission, and an intermittent short on the blue. The others are without vacuum. One may have a phosphor problem too, which obviously rules it out. I'd have to look at it, and it's hopelessly buried for now.

Charles

$1200 to $1500 each
I have one under vacuum with VERY low emission and one that has gone to air.
I also have 3 tubes with excellent emission. Since I have 4 sets that use 15GP22s that leaves me short one good tube. Sure hope this rebuild project works out. Good luck to all those trying to make it happen.

I think that trying to price now before success is acheived would be misleading. We do not know whether the answers are from collectors with duds. Can you use Pete's list with personal contacts to get a better results?

Perhaps you do some cost analysis with projected time and material costs, add profits and mark that up to a market price.

To answer your question--Probably far north of $1000. I have 6 under vacuum and sealed ready to send. Is the gun rebuilding process with new fils solved?

JF knows where I am....

The issues with rebuilding the guns have been resolved. We have a high tech method of removing the old cathodes from the G1 grid cup, and we have spoken to a manufacturer of electron guns and they have given us a price to install new cathodes and filimements and mount the rebuilt guns on the new glass stems that we are having manufactured. The glass stems are due to be shipped to us within the week.

So the answer to your question is YES, we have solved the issues with getting the guns rebuilt.

Not realy interested in parsing Pete's list. This informal poll will have to do.

We already know what we will need to charge to make this a viable undertaking, and to put it mildly "IT ANIN'T GONNA BE CHEAP" And not because we are trying to make a pile of money doing this. Our costs, for all of the oursourcing, are EXTREMELY HIGH. I would guess only the most serious of tv collectors will be willing to anti up for a rebuild.

I would think we will publicly announce a price to rebuild, after we have achieved a reasonable degree of success. Until that time it is premature to even anounce an estimate of the rebuild price.

We are just trying to get a feel for what 15GP22 dud owners are willing to pay in order to have their tube rebuilt. We are trying to see if there are any collectors who are serious enough to lay the kind of money on the line, that John Folsom and I are investing into this project. Anyone who is not as serious as we are, will be left sitting by the wayside with their dead 15GP22's, while the serious among us will be getting tubes rebuilt. (assuming we are successful, and if we aren't, then all bets are off)

So put a price tag on your tubes. Pretend you are in a bidding war on ebay, and you only have one shot to snipe your rebuild at the last second of the auction. So you determine what the maximum price is, that are willing to pay, and you submit your bid. You draw a line in the sand, and that is the absolute most you are willing to pay. One cent more and you say "that's too much for me"

Are you beginning to get the picture??? I am looking for the actual MAXIMUM dollar amount that that a 15GP22 dud owner is willing to pay, not some wishy washy ballpark estimate. I am looking for a solid "I will pay this much, and not a penny more" type of statement.

Furthermore, John Folsom and I have discussed the pricing issue, and we have come to the conclusion that if no one else is willing to pay what this is going to cost, then John and I will rebuild our tubes, and that will be the end of the project. Just what do you think the value of a rare, rebuilt 15GP22 with emmission like NOS is going to be worth on the open market? Is everyone getting a clearer picture now?


Bob

"open market" ?
Sounds like you got a fever.
Your project has been tried before, when parts were available, decades ago.
The "collectors" were unwilling to pay a reasonable price then, what makes you think they are going to spend thousands now?
Maybe a so called "serious" collector would, however the historical value of a museum piece would diminish.
I wonder if these hobbiests will start killing each other when there are only 2 functional 15G's left in the world ?

Eberts,

Your comments are unwelcome and without any merit!

FYI RCA was rebuilding 15GP22's. We have the physical evidence to prove it.

Material science has advanced since the "last attempt" and we believe we have at least a 50/50 chance of success.

As for my "fever", my temperature is quite normal. And at 61 I have conquered far more formidable projects than this one. There is never any guarantee of success when you start a project like this. I am one of the fortunate in this world that have the "Right Stuff" Your comments lead me to suspect that you do not!

In any event there are those out there that I have spoken to who are ready to anti-up for a rebuild if we are successful.

Just what do you think the value of a rare, rebuilt 15GP22 with emmission like NOS is going to be worth on the open market?

Whatever the open market brings for it. Just that simple.

Sounds like you got a fever.


eberts is somewhat famous here for being an abrasive buzzkill who doesn't contribute anything positive. I'm rather loathe to admit it, but I agree with him on this one. You've gotten several estimates from people who have 15GP22's and it's looking like somewhere between $1000 and $2000 is the magic number. Apparently that's not the answer you want to hear. So for some reason you've decided to rant and scold your potential customer base (as wishy-washy and unable to comprehend the "clearer picture") instead of accepting the number as given. Maybe not a "fever", but odd behavior nonetheless.

Rebuild a tube. Demonstrate it has 100% emission on all guns. Prove it won't leak air for a warranty period equal to a NOS tube (35 years). Show it working with vivid colors. List it on eBay and the AK classifieds and AntiqueRadios and on the ETF site. And demand a rebuildable core 15GP22 trade-in or no deal. See what you get.

No need to take a "pole"[sic] for that answer. That's the "open market" at work.

If it makes money, do it. If it doesn't make money but you want to be somebody important and famous by preserving history, do it anyway. If you can't afford that, don't do it.

That's your simple answer. Like it or not.

BTW Eberts, as the caretaker of two functional 15GP22's, I shall certainly be on my guard against other hobbyists looking to snuff me over those bottles:worried:

But seriously, no one is pretending this is anything but an opportunity for a very small universe. It will be expensive to pull off. To put it in perspective, since I bought my first CT-100 when I was 23-years-old I have also bought no less than 16 new cars. What's 3000 dollars more if I can get my first 15G glowing again?

Pete

I'm a little curious about all the hub-bub over "full gamut phosphors" in the 15GP22.
I've had the experience recently of being able to watch a 15GP22 set in action (not an RCA CT-100, rather a Westinghouse), and did not notice anything special about the color (I could not adjust the color myself, however).

Rob

I'm a little curious about all the hub-bub over "full gamut phosphors" in the 15GP22.
I've had the experience recently of being able to watch a 15GP22 set in action (not an RCA CT-100, rather a Westinghouse), and did not notice anything special about the color (I could not adjust the color myself, however).

Rob

To make a long story sort, the major difference from a modern phosphor set (besides being considerably dimmer) is that the green is less yellow and more "kelly green" - this gives the possibility of a wider range of green and blue-green saturated colors.

Which is dimmer,the modern or the 15GP22 ? Also, which is more yellow?
THANKS.

Yoda,

Please send me a PM with your phone number.
I'd like to discuss Vacuum Leak testing and such.
Thanks.

Greg Francisco
Spacecraft Test and Integration Facility
NASA , Goddard Spaceflight Center
Greenbelt, Maryland

Which is dimmer,the modern or the 15GP22 ? Also, which is more yellow?
THANKS.

Modern phosphors are more efficient/brighter. Modern green is more yellow.

To make a long story sort, the major difference from a modern phosphor set (besides being considerably dimmer) is that the green is less yellow and more "kelly green" - this gives the possibility of a wider range of green and blue-green saturated colors.


And thusly, a 15GP22 looks more like true Technicolor motion picture film. I saw Pete Deksnis' CT100 in person, which he has set up better than any CT100 I have seen. The color on Pete's set will knock your socks off if you are viewing the right program material.

If you are reading this post Pete, perhaps you could give us a list of those special DVD's you have that were digitally remastered from the original Technicolor masters, and maybe some links as to where these special DVD's can be purchased.

Pete also has an adapter on his CT100 that allows you to run the set as a "monitor" and bypass the tuning section so you can drive the set directly from the video of your DVD player. I think the video adapter is a great mod and when I get my sets up and running, the video adapter mod will be high on my list of things to do.

Bob

And thusly, a 15GP22 looks more like true Technicolor motion picture film. I saw Pete Deksnis' CT100 in person, which he has set up better than any CT100 I have seen. The color on Pete's set will knock your socks off if you are viewing the right program material.


Bob

I second that, the picture is amazing on that thing Pete, I use a screenshot for my desktop:D. Also, these full gamut phosphor tubes are designed to utilize the full I and Q demodulator system, something that the60's sets did not do. They only use "y" demod.

That early phosphor really does have incredible greens and reds. I've had a CTC-5 with 21AXP22 set up right next to a newer roundie, and there's no copmarison. (nameless other AK member) was the first to demonstrate that for me, with a laserdisc of South Pacific on a CT-100.

Charles

Pete, perhaps you could give us a list of those special DVD's you have that were digitally remastered from the original Technicolor masters, and maybe some links as to where these special DVD's can be purchased.BobHere is a page on my site about the 3-strip technicolor DVD's. I don't know what may be available today; they were in general distribution.

http://home.att.net/~pldexnis/potpourri2/in-awe-demo-DVDs.html


------------------


This page on my site documented one step in the quest for a vintage-hardware-based system that could show us what color television at its best looked like in 1954. Using modern instrumentation, it shows that an over 50-year-old 15GP22 is still capable of reproducing the 1953 NTSC color space.

http://home.att.net/~pldexnis/CTC2_how_it_works/15GP22gamut.html

You will note at the bottom of the page there is a link to the full Monty: a demo of 15GP22 color capability at the 2007 Early Television Foundation museum's convention, which I am sure most of you have seen.


Note also that I did not do it alone; participants included, in alphabetical order, Chuck Azzalina, Wayne Bretl, John Folsom, Steve Kissinger, Steve McVoy, Ed Reitan, and others...

One thing that must be noted is that the same signal (from the same DVD) when put into a modern tube and the 15GP22, will ALWAYS show less-yellow greens on the 15GP22. This in no way indicates what the colors from that DVD SHOULD be. In fact, it is very likely that the color was restored while viewing on a modern (very accurate, but still modern) CRT, and that is what the srudio intended on that DVD.

However, one might surmise that IF the studio used an extended range monitor, it might have at some point produced an extended range master which was then rendered to be as good as possible on a modern display. This could include the choice to either keep the correct hue of a true green or go for higher saturation, but not both. There are similar, but much more severe, color rendering choices to be made in converting computer images to printed output.