Can anyone suggest a good small indoor antenna for reception with a digital converter box?

I'm looking for something that can fit in a small bedroom without making it look like Frankenstein's lab.

Don't talk about bolting stuff on the roof, erecting towers in the yard, etc. Big outdoor antennas are not in the picture, and I can't poke any holes into this room.

So far, I have tried 3 antennas in this room: an old Rembrandt rabbit ear (poor), a modern Radio Shack amplified antenna (better), and a 4-foot long roof antenna that I harvested from an attic (best).

All suggestions are welcome. I'm able to bend & solder copper tubing and wire, so if there is a homebrew plan that would work, that might be fun (and more attractive than most commercial antennas).

Regards,

Phil Nelson

A lot will depend on what your walls are made of (plaster with metal lath indoors? brick outdoors? aluminum siding?), what sort of insulation you have (foil-backed fiberglas?), distance to the transmitter(s), houses in the way, trees, bushes; height above ground, etc. Heck, I have an amplified antenna on a 25 foot mast with a rotator, and because of all the trees, there are some DTV stations just 25 miles away that are now impossible to get. I'll have to wait until autumn and winter to be able to watch anything on CBS.

Basically, unless you have any DTV stations on VHF channels, a good regular UHF antenna is where you'd start. If you have a window where you'd be able to aim an antenna at the transmitter, with a minimum of obstructions, that would be a big help. Sensitivity of the DTV converter is also an issue.

http://www.ccrane.com/antennas/tv-antennas/cornet-indoor-tv-antenna.aspx

If all the digital channels in your town are up on UHF and fairly strong, an old fashioned UHF hoop antenna will work fine.

---

Unlike it's analog counter-part digital signals are either on or off, I agree with oven-master that a lot depends upon what type of building you live in. The phase shift on the digital signal will cause it to totally drop out. I do think some of the amplified indoor antennas do work well like the terk models.

I just put up one of the Winegard models on the roof, it works very well

The best top of the set indoor UHF antennas for DTV I have found are the dual bow ties with rear reflector (gold type)...they perform better than the loop or rabbit ears.

I now use a 300-ohm uhf bowtie antenna mounted atop my set, with regular dipole rabbit ears. I route the vhf (dipole) into my Zenith balun under '2-13' and the bowtie into the '14-69' terminals. The signals are then mixed and sent 75-ohm into a male F-connector which i plug into my DTT900 converter. I average 90% reception on all channels found in the auto channel scan. I do live roughly 30 miles from the furthest transmitter, however.

I've been looking at some of the old Winegards for a more permanent solution.

Phil,

Check out: http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/

I haven't tried it yet, but an antenna authority in our club says this method may be good, fast AND cheap!

--Dave

Screw my wacky setup! I'm building this tomorrow. Thanks Dave i'll come back with the pics.

I don't know about dtv, but I'm always trying to pull in a good clear picture and sound on ch 56, which is about 50 mi away from me, and I'm in a bottom floor apt. What works for me is 2 of those 'bow tie' antennas. Clip them on to a pair of rabbit ears, on the same rabbit ear, one on top of the other, have them both facing the same direction, whatever produces the best reception, but I only connect the top 'bow tie' to the uhf converter, I've tried several different arrangements of bow ties and that works the best. In my experience the bow ties outperform the loops. I've never tried one of those dual bow ties with the rear reflector, which is basically what I'm talking about here with the addition of the reflector, so that might work better.

Phil,

Check out: http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/

Well, that does look cheap and easy. Pretty ugly to tack on the wall in my new "TV room," but maybe I could paint it to match the wall.

FWIW, here is the little antenna that I found in the attic. It had a little green connector labeled with KCPQ 13, a local station. Evidently a promotional item from the time when KCPQ introduced their new UFH channel. I see a little bowtie. Is the rest of it a VHF antenna, or a reflector of some sort? (I know nothing about antennas.

Phil

Dave that antenna is awesome. Thanks for the info and pics on how to build it.
Dan

FWIW, here is the little antenna that I found in the attic. It had a little green connector labeled with KCPQ 13, a local station. Evidently a promotional item from the time when KCPQ introduced their new UHF channel. I see a little bowtie. Is the rest of it a VHF antenna, or a reflector of some sort? (I know nothing about antennas.

Phil

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=95970&d=1213986130

Looks like a Yagi antenna, made for 200MHz) pointing straight up into space. Yagis usually have their booms horizontal, pointing towards the station transmitter tower. The elements can be vertical or horizontal, to match what the transmitter antenna is doing. I don't see the bow-tie (this the right picture?). Also, it may be missing some parts, hard to tell. Hard to tell what the antenna lead in is connecting to.

There is a single bowtie behind the main staff (hard to see in that photo).

It is riveted to the second-to-top pair of crossbar elements and insulated from the rest of the elements by the blue plastic supports. The lead-in comes past the lower blue insulator, next to the yellow caution sticker, and goes to my DTV converter box.

In the attic, it was mounted horizontally (longest staff facing the ground, not the horizon). I just stuck it up this way because it's a small room and I have a short lead-in.

The bowtie is 14 inches long. The crossbars are 24 inches, and the main staff is 50 inches.

Phil Nelson

The "bow tie" is a phased connector for the signal. This antenna is tuned for a specific UHF channel, and is normally used with the elements horizontal and the main boom pointed to the station. I think the end pointed to the station should be the lower end as you have it mounted.

The way you have it, you will get some reception from stations in the direction into or out of your wall.

Edit - you did say channel 13, so that's probably what it is tuned for

A lot of discussion of this very subject over on another forum - most of the antennas built by forum members look like the one shown. I built a similar one, and can say they work great in my area (Norfolk-Portsmouth-Suffolk VA).

Cheers,

http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/index.htm

http://www.digitalhome.ca/ota/superantenna/index.htm

Whoa, I got one of those from RatShack quite a few years ago at a clearance. $6. I replicated it with 12ga. aluminum grounding wire for the elements, and aluminum window screen for the reflector. Worked great.

Thanks for that link. I just may build another one of those my own self soon... my present combo VHF/UHF/FM RatShack antenna was their smallest available when I first got it, and it's just adequate, even with an amplifier.

Tom

you did say channel 13, so that's probably what it is tuned for
That would make sense. The little green box connected to it advertised KCPQ and their new "Movie Channel." Coax from this antenna was connected to a much larger antenna in the attic.

Phil Nelson

Whoa, I got one of those from RatShack quite a few years ago at a clearance. $6. I replicated it with 12ga. aluminum grounding wire for the elements, and aluminum window screen for the reflector. Worked great.

Thanks for that link. I just may build another one of those my own self soon...
Tom

Looks like a worthy project to me. Interesting that they compared their double-bay version to the Channel-Master 4-bay 4221. It raises the question, "Why not build a 4-bay Gray-Hoverman?". I think I might give that a try. Any thoughts on how best to connect them? An 8-bay? 16? Is bigger better? Does size matter?

Of course a multi-bay antenna probably won't work indoors, which the original topic stipulated. A single-bay ought to fit ok, for example the foil one given as an example that was wall-mounted. Sure looks easy to build.

Phil -

Another antenna that works quite well for DTV is the Philips (used to be Zenith) Silver Sensor. It's a UHF log-periodic that comes with its own tabletop stand and doesn't take up a lot of room. I was planning on building one of the antennas with the reflector when a co-worker loaned me his Silver Sensor, and from what I've read, it compares favorably with the reflector-style antenna.

I'm about 35 miles from the broadcast towers and have the antenna pointed out my front window. I get about 85-90% signal strength on all Chicago channels and can even pick up one out of Gary Indiana if I rotate the antenna 90 degrees.

-Jim

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ZHDTV1&xzoom=Large#xview

Check out: http://uhfhdtvantenna.blogspot.com/
OK, here is what I built, using copper wire, screws, a precut piece of metal from the furnace section of Home Depot, and a stick from the garage.

The lead-in connects at the middle terminals, as per the plan.

It seems to be marginally better than the funky antenna that I found in the attic. With careful positioning, I can receive a couple of stations that had occasional dropouts before.

Not the miracle antenna I was hoping for, but maybe I'm already receiving much or all of what someone can reasonably expect in this location. Some stations come in just fine if you disconnect the antenna and touch your finger to one terminal of the lead-in.

Phil Nelson
Phil's Old Radios
http://antiqueradio.org/index.html

Looks like your reflector could be out of phase. The Gray-hoverman has it 3.94 inches behind the plane of the active elements. The website you modeled after uses the wide dimension of a 2X4, which I think is around 3.75 inches. I bet someone out there can show us the math, but if I'm looking at your antenna correctly, it looks lke you used a 2x2. If the reflector is too close (or far), it's out of phase, and the reflected signal, instead of augmenting the incoming signal, will interfere with it instead -- do more harm than good. Don't know if this will help your antenna or not, but might be worth looking into.

Looks like the driven element is indeed too close to the reflector... and that's the first I've noticed the top and bottom bays with crossed feed lines.:scratch2: I would think that perhaps that would end up cancelling out incoming signals?
Tom

Also, the main 2x2 looks kind of metallic (gold). Might just be the photo, or maybe paint. If there's anything metallic about it, the whole antenna's one big short.

The crossed feed lines are curious, but correct. This channel-master looks to be the same design:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228&xzoom=Large#xview

and the bays are cross-fed similarly. I don't know the math behind it, was hoping one of the experts would chime in...?

Yes, I used a 2x2 rather than a 2x4. Didn't realize that that dimension was important, but again, I know nothing about antennas.

I painted the stick with nonconductive brass-colored paint. Don't think that's an issue.

It's easy enough to rebuild it tomorrow with a 2x4 in place of the 2x2 stick. If the difference between (nominal) 3.75 and 3.94 inches is critical, I can probably find something -- like a strip of cardboard -- to shim it up, at least for testing purposes.

Thanks for the advice!

Phil Nelson

Here's version 2.0, built with a 2x4 shimmed up so that the bowties are just shy of 4 inches from the reflector.

It does work better. I pulled in 6 additional subchannels, compared to version 1.0.

Too bad it's so fugly. Not exactly what I had in mind for this small indoor TV room. Maybe I'll have throw caution to the winds, bore a hole in the wall, and weatherproof it to mount outside.

Phil Nelson

Also, the main 2x2 looks kind of metallic (gold). Might just be the photo, or maybe paint. If there's anything metallic about it, the whole antenna's one big short.

The crossed feed lines are curious, but correct. This channel-master looks to be the same design:

http://www.solidsignal.com/prod_display.asp?PROD=ANC4228&xzoom=Large#xview

and the bays are cross-fed similarly. I don't know the math behind it, was hoping one of the experts would chime in...?
Son of a gun, you're absolutely right. Thank you for that.
Now I'm trying to figure out which is better: crossed or uncrossed. :scratch2:
Here's another call for experts to lend their knowledge on this, please!
Tom

If you are attempting to compare to the ChannelMaster, yours should be the same size. If it is smaller, it will be tuned to a higher frequency.

I've seen commercially made versions of this one http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=96011&d=1214010356
with a few S shaped wire pieces for decoration attached to the reflector grill, with the entire thing gold colored. And the bow-ties made of stamped aluminium, with some decorative cutouts in the middle of the triangles. Looked briefly at eBay, but didn't see anything like this there right now.

:thmbsp: Looks good, Phil.

The only other thing I'd do is center and stand-off your 30-ohm twin-lead so that it can't press up against any metal of the antenna (as it is in your photo -- several places), which will cost you some gain. Otherwise I think you're gold.

Thanks, I rerouted the twin-lead as you suggested. Works like a champ now.

We were in Fry's electronics to get something else today, and on impulse I bought a Philips Silver Sensor tabletop antenna, which someone had mentioned earlier.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0007XDI54/ref=dp_cp_ob_title_0

The performance is much poorer than this homebrew antenna. Receives only 9 channels, as opposed to 32. Orientation didn't seem to change anything. I'll return it tomorrow.

Phil Nelson

One last footnote. I went to AntennaWeb

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/Address.aspx

to get a list of digital stations broadcasting in this area. My homebrew antenna receives everything -- including a station 37 miles away. I even get one station that's not on their list.

Lucky for me, all of the transmitters are in the same general direction (southeast). Time to declare victory!

Phil Nelson

That is a sweet Double Bow Tie youve got there wa2ise.

Why is this message box so small?

Anyways, regarding indoor antennas. I have a big instrument measured shootout about to get under way with 20 or so commercially available units over at the AVSforum. And Im working on a guide as well. Its still a work in progress. But its getting there.

Check it out, everybody. Let me know what you think.

EV's Best Top Rated HDTV Indoor Antenna Review Test Round-Up Guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779)

That is a sweet Double Bow Tie youve got there wa2ise.

Why is this message box so small?

Anyways, regarding indoor antennas. I have a big instrument measured shootout about to get under way with 20 or so commercially available units over at the AVSforum. And Im working on a guide as well. Its still a work in progress. But its getting there.

Check it out, everybody. Let me know what you think.

EV's Best Top Rated HDTV Indoor Antenna Review Test Round-Up Guide (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1037779)

Nice post over there. This part caught my eye:
"During the transition to digital TV, many stations are temporarily operating at reduced power levels. If you are not receiving certain digital TV stations, this does not necessarily mean there is a problem with your antenna or receiver."
I sure hope this is the case. I have an outdoor antenna 25 feet up. In the winter, everything was fine. But since the leaves sprouted on the 40-foot tall trees that surround my house, I've lost half my DTV channels. Not good.

I also saw that people who rely on indoor antennas for DTV are potentially in for a big hassle: http://www.centris.com/pages/viewnews.aspx?newsID=34&SiteID=9

I know some people in this situation, and an outdoor antenna is simply not an option for them. Since they refuse to pay to watch TV, there's an excellent chance that they will simply stop watching TV after Februrary 2009.

Oh, and your message box is small because it's an issue of this forum's software and your IE browser. Firefox does not have this problem.

Tom

I use Opera, not IE.

Id use Firefox, but I have others using the same computer, and we(I) decided to use a different browser, just to keep things serparate. Im thinking about switching to seamonkey.

Dumb question here folks. I live 8 miles outside of Madison, and can make one of these homebrew antennas pretty easily. I have a roof mount standard unit now. Should I stick with the rooftop? Or put this beast in the attic? I really hate the look of the rooftop unit and would LOVE to get rid of it.

I have cable, but like having my options open!!

Evan

Post your tvfool.com info.

Depends on where the towers are that you are trying to reach. But Id say an attic mount would be fine.

Post the TVfool info and list the stations you are trying to get. Then I can give you some suggestions and perhaps some dimensions for an improved Home Brew Bow Tie antenna.

I use Opera, not IE.

Id use Firefox, but I have others using the same computer, and we(I) decided to use a different browser, just to keep things serparate. Im thinking about switching to seamonkey.

Whoops. My bad.:stupid:
Doofus Tom

That is a sweet Double Bow Tie youve got there wa2ise.



That's not mine, that's Findm-Keepm's antenna. I used his picture as an example of what some commercially made antennas looked like, with some decorations thrown in.

Oh. Im new forgive me.

A commercially available model similar to that is the AntennasDirect DB2.

Says everything in the area is either green or yellow. I don't know how to post the exact results. I live in Oregon, wi 53575. Town is very small, so street address is not really needed. There are a lot of trees.

Thanks!! - Evan

Evan

Here is your tvfool info. Is this info off by more than 10 miles to the local transmitter tower cluster? In your immediate yard/block, are there trees between you and 320 degrees or so? That figure may change with an exact address. How close is the info I posted to the info you got?



Are you trying to get analog still or or you just concerned with digital? Why kind of TV are you using? If using analog CRT, what kind of converter box are you using or going to use?



You are very close to the towers and Line of Sight. You could use and indoor antenna and do well, seem to me. And certainly an attic install would be fine. What is your preference?

http://www.antennaweb.org/aw/antenna.aspx?color=Blue

Yellow is the easiest get, Green next. Blue would require a good antenna.

That information is pretty much dead-on that you posted as far as distance.

There ARE tall trees and hills between me and the towers, I also have very tall trees in the back yard. The good news is there is a 10 acre field behind my row of trees that is empty. I have a sony SXRD dlp that is a year old. When I lived in madison, i was able to pick up several high def channels with NO antenna even connected to the tv.

I would prefer an attic mount setup, its not a very tall attic so storage-wise its useless. It would also allow me to get my big antenna off the roof (looks like crap IMO).

I am primarily concerned with digital broadcasts. Honestly, there is a chance it will see little use unless cable goes on the fritz. I want to have broadcast TV in the event of severe weather if I ever go to direct TV as well.

Evan

There ARE tall trees and hills between me and the towers
Our property has a perimeter of tall evergreens in the direction where all the area transmitters are situated. The stations are located from 13 to 37 miles away.

The homebrew antenna that I made receives very well, and it is just sitting on a table on a first-floor room, not upstairs or in the attic. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Now if they would just broadcast something worth watching on those stations :-)

Phil Nelson

You could attic mount just about anything since you are that close to the towers....... the trees will be in the way regardless of if its on the roof or not. All the towers are in the same direction as well. You do have one VHF Hi, but its on the upper spectrum of VHF Hi....which is good for our purposes....a uhf antenna should have an easier time with it.

Here are my recommendations for an attic install.

AntennasDirect DB2, Channel Master 4220, or even a Channel Master 4221....with Channel Master Titan 7777 amplifier and Quad Shield Copper on Steel RG6 cabling. You can leave these inside the box if you wanted, and use them like that inside the attic. I like the DB2 best out of that bunch....its smaller and lighter and packs a mean punch with its 4mm aluminum whiskers.

Other options...


RS DA-5200 outside or attic
Winegard SS-2000 or Terk HDTVs which is a SS-2000 clone outside or attic....bit pricey but you can find them on ebay for less.
Winegard MS-2000 outside or attic

All of these have their own amplifiers....not too sure about the MS-2000, though.


You could try a home build Quad Bow Tie. I recommend using thick 10 or 12 gauge bare solid copper(or aluminum) wire, and larger 9 1/2" bows with 9 1/2" spacing center to center of the Bow Ties.

Thanks for the information and insight guys. I may try the home built bowtie setup, I have a bunch of 12 ga. romex left over from a microwave installation.

Evan

Throw something like this together. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=98482&d=1215492133
Using a sheet of cardboard about 2 feet by 1.5 feet. Worked for me, in an apartment that has lots of impulse noise that made reception hard with a non-directional antenna. Any bits of wire for the elements will do.

There is a Youtube video about how to build a DTV UHF antenna from wire coathangars and a strip of moulding. A fella I work with did it and liked the result. We both live in the Seattle area as well. He is in Auburn / Federal Way area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWQhlmJTMzw

The video is entertaining too. In case the link does not work search on "coat hanger DTV antenna".

There are dozens of Radio Shack 15-1880 antennas up on ebay New in Box. These are excellent indoor television antennas, especially on UHF.

I dont know if these are legit, but it worth a look see.

Good Luck.

With the leaves on the trees, we have pretty much lost all of our major network broadcast TV stations (even with antenna and signal amp that I built over the winter). We only get one strong signal informercial network with the antenna in the attic and I have tried numerous positions and angles for the antenna.

The FCC seriously mis-calculated the transition to this "superior" technology. I must say that I'm not very happy about this (we live more than 30 miles from any of the major network broadcasters ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, FOX).

With analog TV we ALWAYS received signals with bunny-ears (and through most any weather and season) from our state's CBS & ABC affiliates. During the winter we could sometimes get NBC, PBS and Fox.

Well, I love all the ingenuity that the do-it-yourselfers have demonstrated, but this is what I had hooked up earlier this evening to check my local HD reception... and it worked like a charm.

But of course, I expected that, because it's **atomic**. :)

-Kevin