I posted an ad on CraigsList on a whim, looking for any old tube based electronics. A guy responded and said he had some stuff to get rid of. He said on the phone that he had a "real old color set" in the basement I could have.

I went over, and lo and behold, it was a roundie! An _old_ roundie. He used to do TV repair, and this was his first color set. He had replaced the picture tube with a brand new 21FBP22 in 1970, and the set saw occasional use until ten years ago, when something went wrong with the AGC. He said that it would work and produce a raster, but when there was any kind of signal, it got overloaded and wouldn't produce a watchable picture. He never got around to fixing it.

The set has been in his basement for a long time, and the moisture hasn't done the cabinet any favors. It's in rough shape, but I'll see how it looks after I have a chance to scrub with some Murphey's oil soap. The chassis is in pretty good shape, not much rust, but the caps are in sad shape. Some even have mildew growing on them. It uses some big scary selenium rectifiers.

The cabinet is really pretty cool. The top lifts off to provide better access to service it, and it looks like it would have been a really nice looking set when it was new. The chassis mounts sideways, the tuner is part of the main chassis - a nice feature, I think.

While the cabinet says Sylvania, the chassis is really an RCA CTC-4. And the back says RCA as well. Makes sense, RCA did have the market on color TV at the time.

I can't wait to start working on this one. I can't believe I finally found a repairable round color set! :banana:

I've also never seen, in person, a round color set this old before either - I didn't even know they made a CTC-4. And now I have one! :D

-Ian

Wow, an RCA 4 would be a rare find, a Sylvania version is extraordinary!
That would make it a 1955 model if i'm not mistaken?

WOW!!!!!! thats a once in a lifetime cant wait to see the outcome

I hope you can bring that old beast back to life! :yes:

Wow, a really great find. Thank you for the photos. Every additional photo and every detailed information is welcome!

Outstanding find!

Wow!
Dan

Ian,

Great find!

Here's some additional info. on the RCA CTC-4 "clones" from Steve McVoy's ETF site. An example of your rare Sylvania is included.

ETF - RCA CTC-4 Clones
http://www.earlytelevision.org/rca_ctc_clone.html
-Steve D.

GREAT find ! Can't wait to see it goin' again...

Congratulations! Looks like from the photos only two capacitors have been replaced, one big 'lytic, and an Orange Drop near the horizontal hold coil.
These are interesting to work on, and creativity comes in to play when replacing the big cans, if you don't re-stuff them (I didn't). Hope the CRT is high emission. Is it original type 21AX?
Kevin

all i can say is you could have not done any better. great set. steve

Cool set. I don't think I've seen an early Sylvania roundie before.

I'm definitely excited about this project... I can't wait to get started. Tonight or tomorrow I'm going to clean up the cabinet, and hopefully I'll be able to stop by the library to get the PhotoFact. I'm going to need to order more caps! I'll post progress and more pictures as I get to it.

I wonder how many of these Sylvania CTC4's are out there?

-Ian

...

Better get rid of th' damthing...Hit'll BLOW UP on ya, 'n' pull all the nails outta yer studs in the walls of yer house....

That's an awesome score, two seperate ctc-4s found in one week!! Awesome, I always thought these numbers were somewhat low, I recognized chassis once saw convergence sub chassis attached to main. Check my avatar, will be a good watcher. That removable top cover they did for the ctc-4s they should of carried over into other models, the ctc5 I used to have, you had to take bas ck cover off and reach into cabinet. I never understood why RCA didn't keep top for later models??

:yes::drool::thmbsp:


I suspect it was simply cheaper to glue the top on.


WOW! What a find! I never even thought of Sylvania having such a model.

I'm definitely excited about this project... I can't wait to get started. Tonight or tomorrow I'm going to clean up the cabinet, and hopefully I'll be able to stop by the library to get the PhotoFact. I'm going to need to order more caps! I'll post progress and more pictures as I get to it.

I wonder how many of these Sylvania CTC4's are out there?

-Ian

Ian,

As I ponted out in my CTC-4 clone post. There is at least one other example of your 21" Sylvania at the ETF Museum in Hilliard, Ohio. That makes a total of two known. Very rare indeed.

http://www.earlytelevision.org/images/sylvania_21C609-hd.

-Steve D.

That sure isn't what I expected! Wow-what a find!

Hey great find!!! And that cabinet should clean up nicely!!

And that cabinet should clean up nicely!!

I hope so. It does look a bit better in the pictures than it does in real life. The finish is real bad toward the bottom, there are lots of dings and scrapes all over, and the top has some rings and burn marks on it. But, it's pretty solid, not falling apart. The legs need some repair, it's been slid around on a concrete floor a lot I suspect, because the metal "feet" on the bottom of the legs are worn almost all the way through. It's starting to delaminate a little on the legs too. But some replacement metal "feet" (they're just those round, push-in type), and some gluing and clamping should fix them.

I'm not very experienced in finish repair, so I'm just going to clean it and scrub it with some Murphey's oil soap, and fix the delamination of the layers at the bottom, and not mess with the finish until I get better at it. My area of expertise is really the electronics.

The cabinet is made of this odd material. I forget what it's called... they used to make trees out of it... ummm, let me think..... wood! That's what it's called, wood. I know basic woodworking, but very little about finish or laquer - so I'm just hoping that it'll clean up so that it doesn't look quite as sad as it does now.

You can see the mildew that's growing on the safety glass. The sides of the set have a lot more of that. Fortunately, this set's original picture tube was replaced with at 21FBP22 - no bonded safety glass, so no cataracts. The guy that gave it to me said that when he replaced it, he chose between the FBP and the FJP. Since the set already had a built-in safety glass, and because the FBP was $5 cheaper, this set got the FBP.

I'm going to go to the library when I get a chance and get the Sam's. I found the schematic online at the ETF site, but it doesn't have the nice parts list that the Sam's has, which makes ordering capacitors easier. I'm going to need a bucket of them. This set also uses some rather unusual tubes. I hope that they're good...

This set also has some really big selenium rectifiers. These are definitely getting replaced with diodes. 1N4007's are rated at 1000v, 1 amp. I wonder what the ratings on the original seleniums are. Also, I suppose that here, a dropping resistor would be needed. Normally, on cheap radios where I replace seleniums, I don't bother, since it only changes the B+ a small amount, and the tubes aren't being run near their limits anyway. But here, I'm not so sure.

-Ian

Ian,

Thought I'd pipe in again and suggest this site when you get ready to refinish your Sylvania. Lots of experienced folks here to help.

Antique Radio Forums :: View Forum - Cabinet Restoration
Address:http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=7&sid=32951adb2f50600ba8ae1ab04d2bac77

-Steve D.

If you start to clean that cabinet with anything other than what the experts here recommend you will likely cause the whole project to take much more time and likely cause the outcome to be much less than the perfect "mint-condition" level of reconditioning the gentlemen here will help you obtain.

Usually the sams will give the specifications for the rectifiers as far as current ratings...a set like this would usually use 2 5U4's if it used tubes so that's about 400-500 ma of current draw...1N4007's would probably work but I might use something with higher ratings in a high-current draw device like this just for an extra margin of safety.

I did some cleaning tonight. Murphy oil soap did a great job of cleaning up the cabinet. It's still not great, but at least it doesn't have mildew and nasty dirt all over it anymore. The finish is pretty bad in spots, it's a lot worse than the pictures show. But it's still much, much better than it was when I first got it. Attached are some before and after pictures of the side of the cabinet. It was amazing to see just how much grime came off that set, and just how filthy the bucket of soapy water was afterwards.

The mildew on the safety glass was on the outside, and cleaned off with Windex. I attempted to remove the safety glass - it's held on by a gold colored frame, and the frame is held in from inside with some little metal clips. Simple - remove the clips, pop out the frame and glass, clean, reinsert. Not so. The glass is very much glued into the frame with some sort of black gunk. Potentially a rubber gasket that deteriorated, possibly even black RTV added to stop the glass from rattleing. It's hard to say. But I was not able to get the glass out. I didn't try using too much force, because I didn't want to break it. I'll have to figure out some way to get it out, but for now, it stays, I just put the trim back in. Behind the glass, the bezel has a lot of brown spots on it. It kinda looks like rust, but I don't believe that the bezel is metal - it looks more like plastic. Could be mold. But I can't get the glass out. Any ideas? I've attached a picture of the problem.

This set has a lot more wear and damage than is easily seen in the pictures. Lots of scuffs, can rings on the top, dings and missing finish. But at least now it's cleaner.

I took a closer look at the chassis, and flipped open the HV cage. The flyback doesn't look too good. The wax has cracked and started to droop down off the coil. The coil itself looks fine, and there are no signs of arcing or burning. And since the previous owner said that it was working until AGC started acting up, I'm hoping that it still works. I know people have done a lot of different things to help re-insulate dripping flybacks. Any suggestions on what I should do with this one? Also, is there a sub for a CTC4 flyback? I wonder what the chances are that Moyer's might have one.

-Ian

That fly looks like it's missing a piece?
I reinsulated the one in my 7 with some low acid silicone rubber, it had a rubber coating though that i was able to completely remove first.

Something is causing it to melt though, either arcing or too much current being run through it.

Maybe a heat gun gently applied to the glass might loosen the bond to the rubber? If the mask is plastic you'll have to be extremely careful not to damage it.

---

That fly looks like it's missing a piece?

Yeah, that's what I thought at first, but it appears that the coating is all still there. The coating has developed a crack, then sagged downward on one side. With a little heat, I should be able to push the wax back over, and seal over it with something else. It may have been a fault, it may have simply been due to age and the heat from use. This flyback box is pretty sealed up - no airflow. Once this gets going, I'm going to probably install a fan like another AK'er did.

If you take the CRT out you can push on the glass from the inside.

I thought of this also, but I would like to avoid taking the picture tube out of the cabinet unless I have to. Also, I was worried about the potential damage to the front bezel if the glass is glued in too well. Another thing I thought of would be to borrow the floor tile puller from work. It's a device with two great big suction cups on it, and a release for them. You plunk it down on a computer room floor tile, and lift the tile up. The tiles weigh a good 20 pounds, and this thing has no problems. Once again, I'd be worried about damaging the bezel.

-Ian

...

just thought of something put metal sliders on bottom of legs for easy moving, better yet find some gliders shaped as actual metal spheres if made. There's something great about moving around a big set and not asking for help. Those legs look better than ctc4s screwed on short legs. Made as part of cabinet.

I have my Zenith roundie sitting on clear plastic gliders, the kind you put under furniture legs for moving. They are relatively invisible but when you need to pull the set away from the wall for service, you can do it almost one-handed.

...

Ian,

With regards to your safety glass problem, I had the same issue with my CT-100. What I did was to use a hair dryer to warm the edges of the glass. You can start at one corner, and use a wide spatula and gently, very gently apply pressure while you keep the edge of the glass warm. Don't concentrate the heat too much or you could damage the glass or damage the finish. The use of the spatula is OK since you have metal trim that goes around the glass, though if you are gentle there will be no marring of the edges of the wood finish. I had a friend assist me with this and it is easier with two people but one can do the job. Once the seal breaks on one corner, just follow along with hair dryer and spatula and it should work. This is documented on Pete Desknis' web site. The two most important things are care and patience. Good luck!

Gilbert

OK, so the heat will melt the goo. I wasn't sure what it was - if it was RTV that was added later, then I don't think the heat would have helped. So that was factory goo... I think next week I'll try again to get the glass off - I think if I use the floor tile puller and a hair dryer I should be able to get it off. Thanks Gilbert!

I went down to the library and photocopied the Sam's. This is a complicated set - biggest schematic I've ever seen in a Sam's. It's longer than a standard 11x17" page. Now I have a list of the capacitors it uses, so I can order the ones I'm out of. Some values are going to have to be substituted though, since even Mouser doesn't have some of them (like .0027 and .0039 at 1600v). And as usual, electrolytics are only going to be able to be "close" since the industry standard has changed to a new value convention - like 47uf instead of 40uf. Fortunately, the component tolerances with these old parts is pretty wide, and small changes won't matter. Either way, I'm going to try and keep as many of the components the right value as possible.

In some cases, I wonder why they even bothered. I mean, why have both .0022 and .0027 caps in the same set? There is a good chance that they'll be the same anyway, with the 10 or 20% tolerance on these old style paper caps. That's the whole reason for the modern standard value system in the first place, but you would think that back then, someone at RCA would have said "Gee, if we only use .0022's and forget about the .0027's, the circuit won't actually really change, and we'll have one less part to stock".

It's kinda frustrating to not be able to get exactly the right parts, and, even though I know what I can safely substitute, I like to try to keep things the way they were when possible, and use original values - if only because it makes tracing things later so much easier because the values you're looking at in the set are the same as on the schematic.

The electrolytics are going to be fun. Lots of substitution and creative mounting.

-Ian

Hello Ian: I did some checking about caps. I bought replacements for the doubler circuit from Allied when I did my CTC-4 last year. They currently have axial caps rated at 200 mfd@300 volts for $8.08 each, 259 pieces in stock. Check their prices on other values and compare with other vendors. The allied stock number is 852-0039. The CDE part number is TC594. These will work for the low voltage doubler. I used a variety of sources for the other caps, including JUST RADIOS in Ontario Canada. Service is prompt and hassle free.
For the other cans, I used a combination of axial and radial, as space permitted. These chassis don't have much room to spare, as compared to later ones. You can locate the power supply caps around the chassis, while being careful of signal bypass considerations. If you take your time and think out each replacement location, it will work out well. Hope I can offer help again.
Kevin

Ian:

What I found to be the easiest when I restore CTC-4s is to restuff the electrolytics. That solves the problem of addind terminal strips in an already tight space. The nice thing about the CTC-4 cans is that they have the cardboard sleeve on them and they can be carefully removed. You can then cut off the can just above the large rim around the base and mount the new caps inside. You can then glue the sleeve back on without reinstalling the metal can. This makes a nice need appearance under the chassis, If you do this just be carefull when moving the chassis around so as not to bump the soft cardboard cans.

Steve

...

Hi Ian,

The heat from the hair dryer will soften the material enough for it to let go of the glass, that was my experience with the CT-100. The black goo won't drip or run, it should just soften and allow the glass to be pulled away. Also I should have said that the hair dryer should not be set to high. Low or possibly medium should be OK. I chose the hair dryer as opposed to a heat gun because there is more control with the hair dryer, and I feared there might be a disaster with the heat gun. Keep the hair dryer moving as you warm the glass. I beleive that seal around the glass was there to keep dust out and prevent any noise or vibration. I guess after 50 plus years it has turned into goo. You'll have to decide what to replace it with but that will come later. I think your idea of using the puller along with heat is interesting. Please keep us posted on how it all works out. Best of luck!

Gilbert

radio63 has the right idea. I used this exact method to get the front glass off of myctc4. It took about 30 minutes to get the glass hot enough for the rubber to soften. I carefully pryed at the top edge until it started to let go and then worked my way down both sides until the whole thing was free. Be carfull not to pry too hard or you could break the glass.

Congratulation on such a RARE find. It is hard to believe that sets of this rarity are still lurking around in someones basement or attic.

Great find! My Dad's first color TV was a RCA CTC4 he won. I got it about 30 years ago and replaced the 21AXP22 with a 21FBP22 with sulfide phosphor, much brighter. I don't remember the inactive screen color, but suspect it was olive green like yours. the horz HV xformer burned out about 15 years ago and I trashed it, too bad.

Anyway, your 21FBP22 was replaced in 1970 so it should be plenty good. This CRT came out in May, 1961. By 1970, the 21FBP22A may have been rare-earth phosphor, brighter yet. Can you determine if your CRT is a 12FB22A?
I'm interested because I've got two 21FBP22s, a green screen like yours and a newer lite gray. The greeni is stamped 21FBP22 on it's pin-cap, along with its SN, the gray has only the SN which is much higher number. The gray seems to produce brighter, better color so I'm assuming it's a 21FBP22A. This is the CRT I'm using in my "reactivated" RCA 21CT55. I hope you respond so I can stop being concerned if I made the right choice of tubes. Thanks....Tom

I don't know for certain, I haven't looked real close at the tube. I know the guy mentioned that it had the rare-earth phosphors. He still even had the warrenty card for the tube. I'll look at it. I know that the paper tag on the bell of the tube says both 21GUP22 and 21FBP22, but I'm not sure what the base socket says. I'll check when I get home from work.

-Ian