I recently moved to a new community and in doing so decided to dump cable and will be going back to a c-band satellite dish with 4dtv and mpeg2 FTA receivers this spring as soon as the ground thaws. In the mean time, I'm using a DigitalStream HD3150plus ATSC set-top-box that I borrowed from work to receive all the local digital channels. My daily watcher is a 1993 GE monitor/receiver. Anyway, last night I hooked up both my RCA 2000 and my portable Zenith Sidekick B/W TV to the set-top-box via a RadioShack RF Modulator. Of course the picture quality on both sets was absolutely stunning. My question to all of you is who else has experimented with this? and if so what set-top-boxes and vintage TVs are you using?

I have been experimenting with using ATSC tuners to allow my vintage TVs to receive broadcast HDTV. I have been using both a RJtech model that I purchased from Newegg.com. I also have a used settop tuner that I purchased from Ebay. The used settop tuner is actually more sensitive and seems to be of better quality than the RJtech unit. I have experienced mixed results. When the reception is good, the pictures are great. But if things are not ideal (it seems to be that the wind outside-although my antenna is inside-is the problem). I hate the fact that broadcast HDTV pixellates and the sound stops, then takes several seconds to re-align itself during marinal reception. If I am watching analog UHF in the same windy conditions, the picture does get a little snowy at times, but the sound continues. I am only 30 miles from both the analog and digital transmitters. I can just imagine how bad it will be for people in fringe areas during stormy weather.

I have several Samsung SIR-T451 digital tuners hooked up to old analog sets. Rat Shack RF modulators are enough for the job.

As for quality, these things pick up good digital signals when the analog incoming is snowy enough to be unwatchable.

Enjoy,
Rich P

Dont you think that more research and development should go into aligning digital and HDTV broadcasting before they shut the analog network down next year!! There will be so many problems with pixelation and cutout along with signal search and freeze (lockup) while the reception clears, then you will miss 10 seconds of what could be "critical information"...

I have a combo ATSC tuner/DVD Recorder/VCR unit hooked to my '65 Zenith roundie and the picture is great. I get remote tuning, all-channel (digital) reception and the pleasure of knowing my roundie is ready for the analog switch-off. During bad weather, however, digital becomes practically unuseable. That's when I crank up the 1937 Philco 37-610 tombstone radio and listen to shortwave:music:

I use my digital cable box with my 1980 xl-100 at the moment, and the picture is perfect. Wouldn't this be quite similar to an DTV>SDTV converter, since the cable box is acting as a D/A converter? I'm not worried about that aspect of the conversion, but the weak digital signals can ruin the whole shebang. I mean, sometimes my digital cable freezes up and reboots. They told me we have 'weak signals' in my area...and thats over a cable line! So I cannot imagine how bad OTA can get...

Dont you think that more research and development should go into aligning digital and HDTV broadcasting before they shut the analog network down next year!! There will be so many problems with pixelation and cutout along with signal search and freeze (lockup) while the reception clears, then you will miss 10 seconds of what could be "critical information"...

When it comes to critical information such as civil defense announcements or weather advisories, digital TV will be useless. That is why we must never get rid of analog AM radio. Digital signals, although clearer, are just too fragile.

I use my digital cable box with my 1980 xl-100 at the moment, and the picture is perfect. Wouldn't this be quite similar to an DTV>SDTV converter, since the cable box is acting as a D/A converter? I'm not worried about that aspect of the conversion, but the weak digital signals can ruin the whole shebang. I mean, sometimes my digital cable freezes up and reboots. They told me we have 'weak signals' in my area...and thats over a cable line! So I cannot imagine how bad OTA can get...
Using your cable box that way is exactly how it will be once analog TV goes away.

For the cable company to say "the signals are weak" is inexcusable. It is their job to fix that, and provide flawless signals. That is what you are paying for. I remember in the 1980's, when I still had cable TV, I was getting herringbone patterns on the local channels that were part of the cable signal. I am sure the problem was from "real" OTA signals leaking into the system. The cable company swapped the box but the problem remained, and they said "it is probably just the limits of your TV's tuner". I told them I had one of the best tuners on the market (Sony Profeel VTX-1000R), and if they have a TV that will not display the problem, bring it over and show me. Gee, surprise, they actually fixed their broken system the right way within a few days... :)

Chris, when we add up the broadband internet, the phone service, and the premium channels, the cable bill is bout 128 bucks a month. It certainly is inexcusable. Time Warner, if you're reading this WE ARE GONNA SWTICH TO FIOS by Verizon! (There that should get us about 2 years free :D:D)

Using your cable box that way is exactly how it will be once analog TV goes away.

For the cable company to say "the signals are weak" is inexcusable. It is their job to fix that, and provide flawless signals. That is what you are paying for. I remember in the 1980's, when I still had cable TV, I was getting herringbone patterns on the local channels that were part of the cable signal. I am sure the problem was from "real" OTA signals leaking into the system. The cable company swapped the box but the problem remained, and they said "it is probably just the limits of your TV's tuner". I told them I had one of the best tuners on the market (Sony Profeel VTX-1000R), and if they have a TV that will not display the problem, bring it over and show me. Gee, surprise, they actually fixed their broken system the right way within a few days... :)

That sounds about right. I dropped C***ast because they never could get my internet to work. They kept telling me my computer had issues when I fact my computer was fine (had it checked out). I finally blew my top and told them to disconnect the internet AND the TV cable. It was an act of congress getting them to disconnect the cable. For the amount of money they charge, the service should be perfect.

It's interesting that conversations about digital TV usually turn negative, with people noting lots of reception problems, issues receiving in bad weather (which in turn would be bad during an emergency.) etc. etc. I an totally understand the argument, but I'm trying to embrace it and get used to it as a viewer, given that in a little over a year, that's what we will have for OTA television. Actually I am enjoying the added sub-channels, which give me a few more choices to watch.

I just want to ad to the conversation by stating that in many markets, a lot of the digital transmitters are not operating at full power. (specifically the Fox station in my market only has a 500w digital transmitter.) To give you an example, the station I work for plans on doing several upgrades when Feb. 2009 comes. When we shut off our analog transmitter, we will be retrofitting it with a digital exciter and replacing the antenna (at the top of our 800 ft. tower) - the current digital antenna is side mounted and not quite as high and that will be taken out of service. In addition, we will be doubling our output power. The combination of these upgrades should give us a very similar coverage contour to our current analog. So, that being said, everyone's field strength should improve. Therefore, some of the issues that people have been pointing out will be addressed. Well, obviously we'll have to wait and see what that will be like, but I personally don't think it will be as "doom-and-gloom" as some are predicting.

I still think a few analog channels should be saved for emergency use...

Why not keep the lower VHF band specifically for analog signals? That's really about all that band is good for, well that and shortwave radio. Digital stuff isn't going to run on such low broadcast frequencies.

Also, I find that VHF is usually easier to bring in then UHF anyway.

From my "not so great" experience when receiving HDTV, even being pretty close(30 miles) from the transmitters, I agree with MRX37. Analog has served us well for around 60 years. I think that it is stupid to throw this away without a little actual experience with digital. Perhaps things will become better when analog is turned off and transmitter power increases, but what is the problem with keeping some analog, at least for a few years, until we actually know how well digital broadcasting will work under all conditions.

I also enjoy the one Digital subchannel(PBS) that is sometimes broadcast. All the networks and the local independent broadcast nothing on the subchannels, so I do not see any benefit. (If some of the cable channels, History, Discovery, etc were broadcast on these subchannels, I would change my tune. I do not want any more of the network stuff-I do not watch most of what is broadcast now).


(One more issue with turning off all analog channels that is just now coming out is the massive recycling or landfill issue that is being created by all of the newly obsolete TV sets. I have just seen a TV news report on this and have read a couple recent arcticles about it).

As an example of my reception issues, recently, I had a 1960s vintage TV on UHF analog channel 36 running at the same time as my HDTV tuner was receiving the channel 36 HDTV broadcast. The analog TV was using the UHF loop while the HDTV tuner was using rabbit ears. A cold front had just passed, so it was a little windy. The analog was working just fine, while the digital was pixelating, and losing sound every minute or so. I sure hope digital does work better than this once analog is turned off-my digital reception at that time was unwatchable.

In less windy condtions, my digital reception so pretty good. As my antennas are inside, it must be related to transmitter tower movement.

From my experience with running my HDTV tuners( two different types), I have noticed a couple of interesting things. Here, at least, the analog signal is a second or two ahead of the digital. If you play HDTV and analog side by side, the analog set is always a couple seconds ahead. I have also noticed a slight difference in my two different types of HDTV tuners. One decodes the signal slightly faster than the other, so is slightly (less than a second, but noticeable) ahead of the other.

I'd feel a lot better if one of our local stations would broadcast TV Land on one of the subchannels! But, I doubt that will ever happen!

Yeah, wish that would happen too, radiotvnut!

About the issue of UHF vs. VHF reception, I've been using a UHF loop antenna for all of my sets for around 3 years now, and, regardless of the receiver or location, UHF comes in clearer all of the time. For example I get channels 2-13 with typical weak VLF-VHF reception, but the scattered UHF channels come in clear as bell without any antenna sometimes(if outside on the deck).

It is honestly a crime to "just throw out' all the current sets using (Good 'Ol) NTSC. This is my definitive thought on this topic....

Through the years we have seen a general decline in the care that manufacturers put in when building equipment. Used to be that consumer (mid-line) TV's with rotary tuners were almost as good as the pro stuff. I mean, you slap on a 99 cent antenna and end it. No remote, but we're still enjoying our slightly-snowy, ghostly analog signal. Nowadays, if a set doesn't have a cable card or an ATSC tuner it is landfill. I, for one, listen to a 1961 Stromberg/Carlson tube stereo amp using 6BQ5s in the output. Also watch a '66 GE and 1980 RCA. To me, it is quite apparent that older technologies sometimes excel in areas where modern technology just fails. Anyone who disagrees should start an electronics organization where cost-cutting isn't the goal. Then I'll start looking for HD plasma displays and 5.1 surround over my rabbit ears.

It's interesting that conversations about digital TV usually turn negative, with people noting lots of reception problems, issues receiving in bad weather (which in turn would be bad during an emergency.) etc. etc. I an totally understand the argument, but I'm trying to embrace it and get used to it as a viewer, given that in a little over a year, that's what we will have for OTA television. Actually I am enjoying the added sub-channels, which give me a few more choices to watch.

I just want to ad to the conversation by stating that in many markets, a lot of the digital transmitters are not operating at full power. (specifically the Fox station in my market only has a 500w digital transmitter.) To give you an example, the station I work for plans on doing several upgrades when Feb. 2009 comes. When we shut off our analog transmitter, we will be retrofitting it with a digital exciter and replacing the antenna (at the top of our 800 ft. tower) - the current digital antenna is side mounted and not quite as high and that will be taken out of service. In addition, we will be doubling our output power. The combination of these upgrades should give us a very similar coverage contour to our current analog. So, that being said, everyone's field strength should improve. Therefore, some of the issues that people have been pointing out will be addressed. Well, obviously we'll have to wait and see what that will be like, but I personally don't think it will be as "doom-and-gloom" as some are predicting.
Thank you for the informed, detailed post from an industry insider, Matt. It is funny, or just sad, indeed, when people think in order to support the old classic equipment, they also have to constantly disparage and point out the shortcomings of new technology (while seldom if ever mentioning the good parts). Personally, I have been done with analog TV for years, and I will not miss it when it goes away completely. I will enjoy using some of my antique TV sets from time to time, with converters as discussed above.

I've got a cable box (digital cable) plugged into a '61 Zenith and it's just fine. Nice, clean picture, nice clean signal.

Actually, since these boxes output a good steady signal, they might not be too bad for restorations - you know the issues not in the antenna, etc...

I also have two different type ATSC tuners plugged into several of my vintage sets. When it works, it is great, no snow, clear picture. However, as I have mentioned, when it does not work it is un-watchable while, analog is still ok. Does not give me confidence in it.

The analog TV was using the UHF loop while the HDTV tuner was using rabbit ears. A cold front had just passed, so it was a little windy. The analog was working just fine, while the digital was pixelating, and losing sound every minute or so. I sure hope digital does work better than this once analog is turned off-my digital reception at that time was unwatchable.

In less windy condtions, my digital reception so pretty good. As my antennas are inside, it must be related to transmitter tower movement.

You should investigate using a different type of antenna than rabbit ears. Obviously I would recommend a rooftop arial but I know that's not always possible. But if your digital channels are uhf, then get a suitable uhf antenna. That will help. Environmental and atmospheric conditions can and do affect reception, but towers are designed as very rigid solid structures. If a tower moved enough to affect reception, well, it would be on it's way crashing to the ground.

From my experience with running my HDTV tuners( two different types), I have noticed a couple of interesting things. Here, at least, the analog signal is a second or two ahead of the digital. If you play HDTV and analog side by side, the analog set is always a couple seconds ahead.

This is normal and to be expected. A lot of delay is introduced by a piece of equipment called a "flexicoder." It basically is taking data from several different sources (the main program material, PSIP data (the electronic program guide,) closed captioning, v-chip ratings data, channel identification data, and the program streams for any of the subchannels) and encoding it all together into the dtv transport stream that is fed to the transmitter.

Even using rabbit ears, I would expect my HDTV reception to be equivalent or better to the analog UHF reception using just the small UHF loop on the back of a TV. The fact tells me that either the transmitted power levels for the HDTV signal are much lower(to be increased in 2009) than than the transmitted analog UHF signal or that broadcast HDTV is crap. I suppose I will find out for sure in 2009.

I am only 30 miles from the transmitters of all the local stations and receive all their analog signals without issue using rabbit ears or the uhf loop antennas. If HDTV is truly better than analog, I expect at least the same performance from it. Having a great picture, but only part time, does not cut it.

I have several Samsung SIR-T451 digital tuners hooked up to old analog sets. Rat Shack RF modulators are enough for the job.



If you are going to feed a B&W TV set, use just the luma video signal (half the S-video jack) to feed the modulator. Goes good with early B&W sets before color TV was invented.

In less windy condtions, my digital reception so pretty good. As my antennas are inside, it must be related to transmitter tower movement.



That's what it is. The broadcast tower is swaying in the wind, and the top (where the antennas are) is likely bouncing around almost a wavelength of a carrier on a UHF channel. And with the rabbit ears or hoop, you're probably picking up ghosts (that the digital receiver adjusts out unless it gets really bad, but it takes a little while to do that) that keep varying so much that the digital box can't keep up to adjust for. A very directional UHF receive antenna at your house would be better at ignoring the ghosts, and would get a steady signal.

I still contend, that if HDTV is as good as analog, I would not need any special antenna where none is needed for analog. I agree with your theory as to what is happening. This just points out a major weakness with whole digital broadcast system. When the signal(or signal alignment) is lost and then recovered, the receiver has to re-align its PLL with the incoming signal, then re-align the received frames, and then begin decoding the signal. All this takes time that the analog system does not need to spend.

The plus side of the digital system is that you can do error correction on the digital signal for some defects. Also, you will never see ghosts, snow, and such using a digital signal. The main issue for me is the reliablity of the system. Is it reliable enough that the loss of signal issues mentioned above are rare and I can enjoy the plus side. So far in my experience it is not.

Some would point to the quality of the HDTV picture over the analog one. However, this is very dependent on what is broadcast. The last time I checked, only two of the six local channels were broadcasting 1080i. One , Fox, was only broadcasting 480p.

One final item that I would point out is that the rabbit ears that I am using are amplified and of recent manufacture. The are advertised as "Designed for HDTV reception" for whatever it is worth. They are not antique as some of my TVs are. The UHF loop that I am using for the analog signal is not amplified and is probably as old as the TV it is on(1967).

If I got a decent HDTV antenna (I live about 50 mi from boston), and a
Samsung SIR-T451 and used these with my Zenith Chromacolor II would I experience any improvement in picture quality over a good, strong analog signal?
If not, what would be the advantage other than being ready for 2009? (Guess this question has been asked and answered many times here, but just couldn't find it.)
Thanks. Frank

Frank-

If you already have an outdoor antenna that gives you snow-free signals on VHF and UHF, you do not need another antenna for HDTV. The first advantage with an HDTV tuner is that many stations have additional channels on their digital signals, such as full-time news or weather. The next advantage may not show up on an older RF-input TV, but it is that print and edges of objects are much cleaner, without the "edge-enhancement" look of many NTSC signals. Another advantage is that digital signals look completely clear and free of snow/noise, but again this may not show up obviously when a tuner is used with an RF-input TV.

I'd like to know if the powers-that-be will allow converter plans or kits to be sold. Some of us like to build our own.

1. I receive snow free NTSC analog signals using rabbit ears, but do not have very good HDTV reception using same (pixellation and all that crap). So I will believe HDTV over the air reception is better than NTSC when I see it. I admit that it could be low signal strength until 2009-but do not know.

2. Only PBS here transmitts anything (and only occasionally) on the HDTV subchannels. Unless something changes, I see very little gain here by having the subchannels(just a lot of hype).

I just found an ATSC/ DirecTv receiver at the local Thrift store today. Only paid $14 for it. Luckily, the ATSC tuner can be used without the directv passcard.

I have a Samsung SIR-T451. As with all of you, the basic rabbit ears that worked great for analog does not for digital. I have pixelation, sound loss, etc with some channels. For me, VHF channels are hard for me to pull in because the rabbit ears I have are an open dipole like you see on many rooftop antennas, with the proper size for UHF, not VHF. An FCC search comes up with my local ABC, CBS ,NBC, FOX, CW, and PAX (Ion TV now) all transmit at around 10% of the analog ERP, My local PBS transmits at around 20%(big deal) of it's analog ERP. To me, this explains everything. Signal levels are so low that error correction can't really handle it. I had to use a VHF/UHF/FM/cable distribution amplifier to bring it up to a level that most stations don't pixelate. Analog reception is good enough and watchable, and actually pretty decent. Unless they turn up the power, digital reception will really be problematic. I remember reading on this thread about the FCC not doing proper testing/not being ready for the switchover. Just look at the crap called "HD Radio" they approved. Closed standard, one company's closed and monopolized standard, expensive equipment. The FCC really needs to get their heads out of their a$$.

For connecting ATSC tuners to your vintage TVs, just connect the box to a Rat Shack modulator (if you use B/W sets, connect the luma instead of composite video) and you should be good to go. Most of you guys still use the rotary tuners on your old sets, but all the vintage sets I have all have VHF tuners only, and there are no analog VHF stations in my area, so my tuners are always tuned to channel 3.

As for those with cable, I'd highly recommend getting rid of it. We have c***ast in my area and they are nothing but money hungry bastards that provide crappy service. I'd recommend satellite if you can. Satellite reception is closer to the roots of TV reception. To go even better, go c-band. If you have the permission/land/etc, put up a c-band dish, infact put up more than one if you can. Go to a c-band provider and subscribe to direct feeds of your favorite channels. Better picture because they are not compressed by transmission through DBS/cable, better rates, and in my opinion, just a better way to watch TV. Also, don't forget the free channels like Deutsche Welle TV (my favorite) and other in the clear channels on c band and ku band.

If you really want the ultimate solution, and can get equipment used, put up a c-band dish for every bird you want to get reception from (Say AMC 11 for Discovery networks), connect it to Digicipher II and DVB satellite receivers with ASI outputs (an output of the direct transport stream) and connect those outputs to ASI input PCI cards in a mythtv backend system. Each ASI input is a channel, and some cards have multiple inputs and some receivers can have multiple ASI outputs. This is how headends pull in the channels, but you can do it yourself and run a kick ass IPTV system with mythtv. Granted, this is expensive, complicated, can require lots of power, and there is lots of stuff that can go wrong or just not work at all. But, if you can get the equipment c-band subscriptions, the space for the dishes, and the ASI input PCI cards and get them playing nice with mythtv, you will be in your glory. You won't ever have to upgrade anything for at least 15 or 20 years, either. This is just one of my dreams. :)

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. Some vintage TVs (like the Philco Safari) have no external antenna input. The solution for that is to use a small transmitter. Or, if you are brave, remove the antenna, and in the hole it left in the case, put an F connector there. Some situations this might not work well.

Jonathan

I have a Samsung SIR-T451. As with all of you, the basic rabbit ears that worked great for analog does not for digital. I have pixelation, sound loss, etc with some channels.
Jonathan

I have that ATSC box, and like you, it didn't work too well with rabbit ears. It does like the UHF hoop antennas though (all digital signals around here are in the UHF band, NYC area).

I wonder if there is (or, will be) a digital tuner with a switched AC outlet on the back. I think that would be a good idea for use on non-remote older TV's.

My rabbit ears are amplified, have a built in UHF loop and claim to be "HDTV ready" and still do not receive well. However, I have found that the used ATSC tuners from the EBAY store listed below are more sensitive and seem to be of better quality than the RJTech unit sold by NewEgg.com. They are also cheaper. You still need the RF converter with these.

http://stores.ebay.com:80/ProServ-Great-Products-Low-Prices

I suspect one (probably the major) issue with my HDTV reception is the low transmitting power that it is being used at present. I certanly hope that the transmit power is raised following the 2009 cutoff. If not, quite a few people will lose reliable broadcast television.